the deep flaw in both PRAYER and MEDITATION

Hm, I haven't researched it as much as you. I'd just assumed that prayer would hava a placebo effect a bit like in medical trials when people believe that they are getting medicine. I was thinking more about the hope people would feel if they prayed, a bit like the hope people feel when they think that they might be taking a medicine that will produce good results. Studies tho. I have no studies. I feel so...studiless...
 
immortalitylost said:
Hm, I haven't researched it as much as you. I'd just assumed that prayer would hava a placebo effect a bit like in medical trials when people believe that they are getting medicine. I was thinking more about the hope people would feel if they prayed, a bit like the hope people feel when they think that they might be taking a medicine that will produce good results. Studies tho. I have no studies. I feel so...studiless...
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Well you can dismiss the meaningfulness of study but we have few ways to test the gossamer insubstantialness of religious claims, which have evolved and are evolving to be ever more slippery. Tests are designed experiments to test claims. It is unfair to dismiss such tests just because you do not like the results. It was not atheists that devised them either, but believers who really thought they would find an effect. Cant attack with the bias card and its "what do studies know.....hmppppphh". That is intellectually sticking your head in the sand.
 
This evening I'm driving down to Cornwall for a week..... have fun folks..... I'l be walking the clifftops...I'l try not to slip ;) Lets see if your prayers work.... :eek::p:D
 
"The only slight anomaly they found was that people did worse if they knew they were being prayed for by others. This seemed to increase stress in the individual."

There may be some studies that say that.. but in my view at least prayer indicates concern for someone and also is more of a positive thing.. that you are worthy of peoples' prayers and concerns. I know a lot of people that appreciate that.

The thing is in therapy if you receive postive vibes from people it can be like a positive spiral of energy and confirmation that you are getting better .. Yes that could be a placebo effect but to me that can be significant. In other words I wouldn't deny that placebo effect can be important.

The following studies seem to support the benign effects of prayer in my view:

Arch Intern Med -- Abstract: A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit, October 25, 1999, Harris et al. 159 (19): 2273

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial -- Leibovici 323 (7327): 1450 -- BMJ

Effects of Intercessory Prayer on Patients With Rheumatoid A... : Southern Medical Journal
 
wil said:
I always think of the likes of Dali Lama, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, am I wrong?
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These folks had the good fortune to find a cause to utterly lose themselves in. I feel the danger of slipping into the semantic quicksand here. Yes, they were/are "selfless" in the sense that we usually mean, but even the most enlightened person is never without a self. Who tells them when it's time to go to the bathroom?

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
These folks had the good fortune to find a cause to utterly lose themselves in. I feel the danger of slipping into the semantic quicksand here. Yes, they were/are "selfless" in the sense that we usually mean, but even the most enlightened person is never without a self. Who tells them when it's time to go to the bathroom?

Chris
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hard to argue with the bladder, particularly as you get up in years. so pretty much it's in control.:p I pee therefore I am. earl
 
Here's the thing Wil: you might ask me, knowing something about my spiritual outlook as you do, if I admit that prayer and meditation help alleviate the existential anxieties of human existence, why don't I do those things myself? If I know that belief for belief's sake works, why not embrace it? The answer is that I can't. I can't just decide to believe. Why? Because, and this goes straight to the OP, I think therefore I am. Masturbatory intellectual activities, regardless of their psychological efficacy, circumvent my ability to practice the first commandment, which is "know thyself." I can't know myself and pretend that parts of me are some divine other. That covers prayer. The reason I can't meditate is that it takes yet another self to make me go sit. I can't sit. It hurts, I don't like it, and I just won't do it.

I do find it funny and ironic that I had to completely deconstruct and dissolve my "faith" in order to appreciate the essential nature and efficacy of faith. Now that I know how it works I can't use it.

Chris
 
Namaste Chris,

As to the 'enlightened' I don't think they lose self, but ego, the need for the self to be right or better. They become in this world but not of it.

As to the knowledge getting in the way of practice...to me it is like typing. Yeah the hunt and peck served me well, but taking the time to learn to touch type simply took daily practice, baby steps and now I don't type letters. I type words and sentences, I don't think of t h i s o r t h a t....my fingers just type this or that as it is all connected.

Same with meditation and prayer and belief...if you have an inkling that it is something you want to try...try it...fake it till you make it....try 'as if'....use it as an experiment...do it scientifically and monitor the results.

I do know a little of you from the time we've spent together on this board. I know an incredible thinker, a soul I believe I coulld rely on if I asked, and I'd love to see you absolutely comfortable in the skin your in.

My mantra in life that has served me well...in any situation, no matter how disconcerting...."I don't remember standing in line and signing up for this class....but I know one thing, I want to pass it. As I do not want to fail and have to take it over."... "If I'm gonna laugh about it later, I may as well laugh about it now"....and "I don't know how, and I can't see how...but I do know it is all good"

peace bro.
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Here's the thing Wil: you might ask me, knowing something about my spiritual outlook as you do, if I admit that prayer and meditation help alleviate the existential anxieties of human existence, why don't I do those things myself? If I know that belief for belief's sake works, why not embrace it? The answer is that I can't. I can't just decide to believe. Why? Because, and this goes straight to the OP, I think therefore I am.
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I think of both prayer and meditation as being noncognitive. My impression is that both Christian "contemplatives" and Buddhists have practices that pretty much put both thought and sensory experience on the back burner, so to speak. In Buddhism, the mind is considered another organ.
 
Netti-Netti said:
I think of both prayer and meditation as being noncognitive. My impression is that both Christian "contemplatives" and Buddhists have practices that pretty much put both thought and sensory experience on the back burner, so to speak. In Buddhism, the mind is considered another organ.
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Nice pun. (contemplate-jhana-burn.) Was it intentional?
 
Namaste all,

interesting thread. i would have to, in principle, disagree with the OP's characterization of mediation in relation specifically to Buddhist meditation, though i certainly recognize the other forms of meditation which exist.

Buddhist meditation produces physiological changes in the brain:

Meditation increases brain gray matter

Meditation Alters Brain Structure, Functioning

Meditation Associated With Increased Grey Matter In The Brain

so leaving aside questions of ego and self and such, there is a direct, positive benefit for beings that engage in Buddhist meditation.

metta,

~v
 
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