Proprietary Rights

OK — let me clarify, I was talking specifically of the New Testament — a book written by Christians, for Christians.
Namaste Thomas,

I am so glad you clarified that. So while I disagree, according to what you've written Catholics have no right to interpret or state their opinions or thought on the old testament or Koran or vedas or Tao te Ching...as it was not written by their community for their community.
 
I think it's ironic that some of the most objective religious standpoints come from Christians, although you seem to express a less rigidly fundamental viewpoint. Where does this idea that Jesus is the only way to salvation come from? Why aren't people who practice other faiths just as capable of having a connection with God? How do you feel about that Thomas?

l think the question is less objective/subjective than absolute/relative with regard to assertions of only one way, the right way, as in one truth, hence the problems catholics have in cleaving to their apostolic tradition and somewhat negating the protestants claim that the individual can and should read the bible themselves which has manifested as countless other traditions of particular hermeneutics; it works viceversa so proddies consider the pope 'antichrist' for eg.
 
My pleasure, Penelope.

Let me correct an error in my last post to you — for 'typological' read 'tropological' — a silly mistake. Let me also point out — if I haven't — that I am Roman Catholic, so I'm speaking from that viewpoint.

The Four Senses of Scripture:
1: The literal
2: The tropological or moral
3: The analogical, or metaphorical. Metaphor in the traditional sense of the Greek verb 'to transfer over' and understood as analogy, by likeness or correspondence. The parables, for example, are analogies of spiritual realities.
4: Anagogical or eschatalogical. Concerning the life in the spirit and the afterlife generally.

(footnotes) Is that what the oral tradition and later Scholastic commentaries of Scripture - in a sense - is ... ?
Well there are two aspects to the oral tradition, which we call Tradition — the first is direct: the teaching of the Holy Trinity, for example, or the Eucharist. These are primary in the sense they come from the Apostles — they are revealed truths.

The Apologists, Fathers, Scholastics are commentaries — they are not revealed as such, but are commentaries on the revealed data, the Deposit of Faith, as well call it.

If so, how does a parishioner get in touch with the whole arc of the Scriptures, or whole arc of any section of it, if they are always doing a detailed reading?
Well the commentaries are detailed readings, if you like. Scripture is the primary source. You don't have to read the Fathers or the Scholars unless you want to get deeper into things. The Liturgy would suffice.

The Liturgy is older than the New Testament, for example. So in the early Church the education of the catechumen was to understand the Liturgy — or the education and training to participate in the Mysteries, which is what the Liturgy is.

(Or is that just a question for literate modern-day believers - given the illiteracy rates of the last 2000 years?)
There is a common assumption that the illiterate were effectively 'in the dark' about their religion. I don't believe that, and there's a wealth of evidence to support that viewpoint. The spiritual and religious life of the illiterate was in many ways richer than it is today.

Put it this way: How is the WHOLE message, the whole CONTEXT, of the Scriptures to be discovered by those who wish to study it?
By living it. It depends upon whether you want to be a saint or a scholar. Christianity is a way of being, not a body of knowledge. So get baptised, go to mass, meditate on the message. Pray ... and get on with it.

(Or does it take years, maybe decades, of detail work {grunt work} ... before they graduate to the "BIG PICTURE classroom," so to speak?)
Metanoia can happen in a moment.

I deeply distrust 'mind' and 'consciousness' - and am searching for better neuro-chemical pathways within myself to guide my conduct within the world. (I am dubious about 'prayer' as being that pathway - but the way you describe it has a certain appeal.)
I am dubious of that style of endeavour. Self-discipline seems the key, to me.

That aside ... The underlined passages above I simply did not understand.
Heavens! I said that Scripture is 'invalid' source! Sorry — I should have read before posting.

We believe that man can attain a certain knowledge of God — an objective appreciation of a deity — by the operation of the intellect. The classic 'five proofs' (from Aristotle via Aquinas) for instance ... I prefer the 'Christianising' of Plato, personally, but that's me.

In Catholicism, we believe that God has revealed Himself, or something of Himself, that man could not hope to come to know by the operation of the intellect alone. How can the intellect comprehend something that transcends it in every degree? How can one comprehend something that lies beyond one's powers of comprehension? So this order of message we call Revelation.

Scripture contains the data of Revelation, embedded into the testimonies of its authors. We also hold that the hermeneutic keys of unlocking this embedded data was taught to the Apostles, and they taught their successors, and so on. Without those keys, you're really flailing around in the dark, you're reduced to a matter of opinion.

So really Scripture is the written record of an oral tradition — or put another way, Tradition was there before the Scripture.

Scripture is able to break the Gordian knot in testy in-house debates ... at those times when Traditional Answers are helpless in the face of novel dilemmas ... -
Only because people argue with tradition ... forgetting that the Tradition produced the Scripture.

Thomas
 
By living it. It depends upon whether you want to be a saint or a scholar. Christianity is a way of being, not a body of knowledge. So get baptised, go to mass, meditate on the message. Pray ... and get on with it.

Just wanted to highlight this. :)

Good to see you around, Thomas!
 
Hi Wil —

... according to what you've written Catholics have no right to interpret or state their opinions or thought on the old testament or Koran or vedas or Tao te Ching...as it was not written by their community for their community.
Er, no. Catholics have a right to interpret the Old Testament according to Christ's interpretation of the Old Testament, obviously.

Catholics also have the right to point out that the Moslem idea of Christians being polytheists is wrong (ie what Moslems say Christians believe).

If Catholics believe what they believe, then they de facto do not accept some of the claims made by other religions, because if one does, one is saying that Christ was wrong ... quite logical, really. Catholics do however accept the existence of other religions in the world as expressions of the spiritual intuitions of those communities that uphold them.

Pope Benedict XVI for example, continually calls on all religions to enjoin to defend fundamental human values that are part of their cultural heritage and common to the religious vision of man in the face of a corrosive and reductive materialist consumer culture that is shaping the world ... (and it would seem, destroying it).

Thomas
 
Where does this idea that Jesus is the only way to salvation come from? Why aren't people who practice other faiths just as capable of having a connection with God? How do you feel about that Thomas?
Well its Catholic doctrine that all those who seek the good with an honest heart are welcomed by God, even if not a member of any religion.

We believe that Jesus is the only way ... because He said so.

We believe that religions can manifest the external aspects of God, but that Christianity transcends them in that it opens into the interiority of the Godhead. St Paul offered this: "but then I shall know even as I am known" (1 Corinthians 13:12) — an esoteric teaching without parallel ... in that it implies two simultaneous orders of being in the one (a paradox that can only be explained by the Trinity, by the way).

Thomas
 
Well its Catholic doctrine that all those who seek the good with an honest heart are welcomed by God, even if not a member of any religion.

We believe that Jesus is the only way ... because He said so.

Which leads back to what you said earlier...

As soon as those, within the community as well as outside of it, started to circulate their own opinions on the meaning of the texts, the trouble started. Today, of course, in this age of 'self-narrative', personal opinion is equated with objective truth, so no-one knows what to believe, and most assume that what they think is valid, purely because they think it.
 
We believe that Jesus is the only way ... because He said so.
Or more corrrectly that you believe that Jesus is the only way because you believe that what was written about what thirty years later is correct.

So glad we cleared all this up though.

No penelope, there are no propietary rights anyone is allowed to discuss, explore, research and have an opinion on the bible.

As a matter of fact, they can teach college classes, post in forums, teach school and don't need to be annointed or wear special clothes to do so.
 
Even with the Torah there is some discussion where certain orthodox people think that non-Jews should not study or read the Torah, so I asked a friend who is a Rabbi and he said that is just one faction who thinks that, and really, anyone can read and study Torah with no restrictions.

Even the alleged "new" testament is a collection of letters and stories and they are the property of no one.
There are still disputes as to who actually wrote them and they have certainly been altered in many ways over the millenia (I am sure some will take umbrage with that comment, but so be it.)
 
... there are no propietary rights anyone is allowed to discuss, explore, research and have an opinion on the bible.

As a matter of fact, they can teach college classes, post in forums, teach school and don't need to be annointed or wear special clothes to do so.
Well, it should be observed that you're declaring a proprietary right even in making such a statement.

But then truth is not a matter of proprietary right, for all have a right to the truth — the question then devolves to who has the truth? Those who transmit the original teaching unalloyed, and those who would rather profess their opinion on the matter.

"And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?" Acts 8:30-31.
It would seem your answer would be 'ask anyone.' It seems to me the Ethiopian showed great prudence and perspicacity.

Thomas
 
Even with the Torah there is some discussion where certain orthodox people think that non-Jews should not study or read the Torah, so I asked a friend who is a Rabbi and he said that is just one faction who thinks that, and really, anyone can read and study Torah with no restrictions.
I quite agree. Whether they understand or derive any benefit from it is another matter.

Even the alleged "new" testament is a collection of letters and stories and they are the property of no one.
Well your indication of doubt by the use of the term 'alleged' speaks volumes.

But of course, in the first instance they were the property of those to whom the letters and stories were addressed.

There are still disputes as to who actually wrote them and they have certainly been altered in many ways over the millenia (I am sure some will take umbrage with that comment, but so be it.)
I don't take umbrage — just point out the inconsistency. (It seems to me that often I am accused of just such when in fact its not me but my accuser.)

The question of authorship is a complex one, and the Catholic Church, for instance, makes no statement other than supporting the weight of evidence. As a Catholic I am not obliged to believe any more than the four Gospels have traditionally been attributed to four authors (not disputed by anyone, as far as I know) and those claims have the strongest provenance.

As to being altered over the millenia — too much is assumed of this point. Scholars have compared a vast array of translations to the earliest text references and find no inconsistency or contradiction in theology.

Thomas
 
Wil, Shawn, Thomas,

The oral tradition of early Christianity.

I'm trying to understand this.
These are private documents within the early Christian community.
Passed around (within the community).

(Maybe some of these documents stayed within only one segment of that community - say the Christian community in Rome or Jerusalem but never reaching the communities in Antioch or Anatolia?)

(Correct so far?)

These documents formed the basis of the New Testament scripture (by committee vote, at some juncture). But some documents did not enter the Scripture but remained within the oral tradition (for a short while? or for centuries?). And other oral hand-me-downs were such "common knowledge" in their day that the need to write them down, and make them explicit, seemed entirely unnecessary at that time ("this is so obvious, who could not understand!?" - thinking in terms of this generation and the next, not thinking centuries into the future - when what was once self-evident will no longer be self-evident, possibly no longer be even visible).

So the Christian oral Tradition both pre-dates written Scripture, but also travels with the Scriptures like a Hobo on a train (half-hidden but traveling the same rails as the certified - ticket-holding - coach-car dignitaries) ... ?

(Right?)

& & &

("Opinion" - as an interpreter of Scripture, written or oral - has no interest to me, whatsoever. Opinion is quicksand.)

& & &

Here is the question which bothers me:

In 19th century America, famous and infamous historical figures like "Wyatt Earp" and "Billy the Kid" were memorialized in Dime Novels.

Historians find hardly a word of truth within these "novels."

Or, to put it differently:
The only TRUTH, in these accounts of Frontier Heroes and Villains, is that these stories fulfilled some kind of NEED within readers - within (by-and-large) working-class and immigrant individuals on the east coast of the United States (as well as in some parts of Europe). Need for adventure (by surrogate)? Need for a more "free," less restrictive (less Victorian, less Capitalistic) landscape for an individual to move thru (if only as an entirely fanciful landscape)?

The stories are pure fiction.
But the NEED is a psychological TRUTH.
(Perhaps a spiritual TRUTH, if you want to go that far.)

What kind of TRUTH is contained within the early Christian oral Tradition?

& & &

What within this oral Tradition is a fact-based truth, that historians inside of and outside of the Christian community can point to and say (with reasonable certainty), "This is true."

And what within the patchwork oral Tradition is a NEED-based TRUTH (a psychological or spiritual TRUTH) in that each greenhorn Christian, in a sense, can be said to have signed up for their monthly-subscription, to have spent their dime, and to have bought the story?

Should I look at this oral Tradition solely from the point-of-view of the Historian? solely from the point-of-view of the Subscriber? should I find some sophisticated way of looking from both points-of-view, simultaneously? should I look from a different perspective entirely?

How do I look at this?

& & &

How should I look at the oral Tradition of Christianity?

 
Thomas

I can't help thinking that different groups within early Christianity must have approached the early oral Tradition in entirely different ways. Each group focusing on this, ignoring that. How did the larger Christian community resolve these potential conflicts? Certainly some disputes must have involved - by one group - cherished 'articles of faith' which, to another group, must have seemed to border on 'heresy.'

Did the Scriptures form via 'compromise'? via 'broad tent' (throw everything in)?
Or was some "Truth Test" employed by the Early Fathers? (Some magical formula.) And, if so, do we know today, Thomas, how that formula for settling disputes worked?

& & &

There must have been many, many disputes.
But it occurs to me that there must have been two fundamental schisms within the early Church. (Plus associated bodies of oral Tradition, supporting one side or the other of each schism.)

1. Admitting (uncircumcised) Gentiles into this offshoot Judaic faith.
(I know this brought Barnabas and Paul - who, up in Antioch, wished to allow non-Jews into the synagogue - into direct conflict with the Jerusalem Christian community who wanted to stick to traditional Judaic strictures. I understand that Barnabas was severely scorned and berated for this stand. Was a compromise struck? Or did finances tip the balance - the wealth of the Antioch church trumping the cash-poor and financially-dependent Jerusalem church? Or were Barnabas and Paul just very persuasive dudes? Or - though it seems unlikely - was the longterm, mass-proselytizing future course of the New Faith glimpsed by all present?)

2. Those Jews, who had known Jesus personally, see faith as a passing on of Jesus' message, heart to heart - the passing on of Faith thru intimate person-to-person contact.
(Just as the hand of Jesus had caressed each of His Follower's souls, so too the Apostle's hand can caress a potential convert's soul.)
By contrast, those early convert Jews who had not personally encountered Jesus during Jesus' preaching days (Jews like Paul, as well as virtually all Gentiles) instead came to faith by a different route - the finding of faith being more akin to being struck by a bolt of lightning.
(Like being throw from one's horse and getting a good bump on the head - scrambling neural-synapses in the brain and showing a person a whole different way of looking at life, a new life-vision the person was ready for, but the person was previously clueless of, until the moment this revelatory flash-connection has occurred.)

& & &

While the 1st schism was resolved quickly (in one generation) in favor of accepting non-Jewish converts
(how was it resolved? and how are the two side of this schism reflected in the oral literature?),
the 2nd schism - coming to faith in a touchy-feely person-to-person manner versus coming to faith via individual revelation - looks, to me, like a still unresolved dispute within Christianity. True, Thomas?
(St. Augustine and Luther, for instance, eschewed the more sociable and intimate route of the original Disciples to pursue, instead, Paul's more individualistic revelatory route to faith. These two conflicting tendencies must have been reflected in the oral literature? Correct? How broadly or narrowly did the early Christian community attempt to mediate this line of dispute as it struggled to nail-down Scripture?)

& & &

Did the oral Tradition provide clear, unifying answers to disputes, Thomas? Or was the oral Tradition, itself, as sectarian and divisive as the disputes likely were?

I still have no clear picture of how the oral Tradition shaped early Christianity.

And too, the deeper question ...
Are Christianity's core Truths dual or singular?
...

Penelope
 
I can't help thinking that different groups within early Christianity must have approached the early oral Tradition in entirely different ways. Each group focusing on this, ignoring that. How did the larger Christian community resolve these potential conflicts? Certainly some disputes must have involved - by one group - cherished 'articles of faith' which, to another group, must have seemed to border on 'heresy.'

The key factor is Apostolic Testimony.

There were nascent Christian communities established before Christ was crucified — we know he sent out over seventy disciples at one point. The Church at Ephesus, for example, was founded by one Apollos, who was preaching a form of Christianity which Aquila and Precilla, when they arrived, found to be 'close, but not quite the real deal' as it were, and they then asked Paul to come and preach there.

Apostolic Authority was established at Pentecost with the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the twelve and the bretheren gathered in together in an upper room. Certainly in Jerusalem even to have Peter's shadow pass across you was considered a blessing. Peter and Paul were dead by 70AD, but by then we had the Creed, and the Didache, which one might call the esoteric and the exoteric doctrine of Christianity, well in place.

In fact, we had the Creed and we had the Didache before we had the New Testament.

+++

But were there conflicts? Yes indeed! When Peter baptised the Roman centurian Cornelius, he was called to explain himself to the Church Council. And the plots against Paul's life were many.

But broadly speaking, the profession of faith of the liturgical church was recognisably in place by AD50, as we can see from comments in St Paul's letters, so there was not the image of a collection of disparate groups all believing different things as people like to present, but rather a much broader profession of the faith.

Continuing my broad-brusg comments, the early errors were attempts to Judaize the teaching, the next wave were the attempts to Hellenize Christianity.

+++

Did the Scriptures form via 'compromise'?
No. The Scriptures are pedagogical texts. The Jews, by nature, are not given to compromise, it's what the Greeks and the Romans found so bloomin' annoying and why they had to make concessions to the Jewish faith. The first Christians were Jews, so not inclined to compromise, either.

via 'broad tent' (throw everything in)?
Again, I think not. There is a discernable purpose to the Gospels, and the Epistles are clearly addressing specific issues, so in every case, the author is utilising and selecting from personal experience, and/or oral and/or written tradition materials to make his case.

Or was some "Truth Test" employed by the Early Fathers? (Some magical formula.) And, if so, do we know today, Thomas, how that formula for settling disputes worked?
Indeed there was. The Creed, the Didache and then the Scriptures. Every theological, doctrinal and dogmatic statement can be argued from Scripture.

There must have been many, many disputes.
Well that's something of an assumption, I think. Not really. In fact, remarkably few. Within a couple of hundred years, the Church numbered millions of adherents, all believing the same basic tenets.

But it occurs to me that there must have been two fundamental schisms within the early Church. (Plus associated bodies of oral Tradition, supporting one side or the other of each schism.)
Why? Surely it's better to look for evidence, rather than go on assumptions.

1. Admitting (uncircumcised) Gentiles into this offshoot Judaic faith.
That was quickly resolved. Remember Peter had baptised Cornelius (a Roman) so that was that. There was no gainsaying Peter, he was one of the three closest to Jesus. Peter did his bretheren the service of explaining himself, and that put an end to the matter.

(I know this brought Barnabas and Paul - who, up in Antioch, wished to allow non-Jews into the synagogue - into direct conflict with the Jerusalem Christian community who wanted to stick to traditional Judaic strictures.
I don't think so? Can you cite a text reference? Ceratinly Paul rebuked Peter for joining the Jerusalem Christians who chose to eat apart from the Gentile Christians, and rightly so.

But it was the Jews who spotted someone with Paul they knew to be a Gentile, and started a riot, not the Jewish Christians. Paul was hauled up before the Council of Elders, and it was the Jews who plotted to kill him. Even the Sanhedrin could not prevent them.

Was a compromise struck?
No, quite the reverse ... back to natures again, Paul, God bless him, seems to be the last man on earth to compromise on anything. If anything comes of out Acts and his letters, it's how bloody-single-minded he was. He caused a riot in Jerusalem (twice) because he refused to compromise.

2. Those who had known Jesus personally versus those who had not
Excuse the paraphrase.

But as far as I know there is no evidence of any contention here, let alone schism? What materials are you founding this idea on? It's evident from Scripture that Jesus lost disciples in large numbers, so 'touchy-feeley' was not much use there ... and it's also evident that his closest followers did not understand the Crucifixion until after His resurrection ... whereas on the other hand, we have evidence of basically good people who've never heard of Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit ... so I'm not sure there's any reality to this contention?

the 2nd schism - coming to faith in a touchy-feely person-to-person manner versus coming to faith via individual revelation - looks, to me, like a still unresolved dispute within Christianity. True, Thomas?
To be honest, I have no idea of what you're talking about. Can you cite evidence or example? As far as coming to faith, everyone does so by Grace, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that's the same for the Apostles, as for everyone else.

Conversion is an affair of the heart — metanoia – not the mind.

St. Augustine and Luther, for instance, eschewed the more sociable and intimate route of the original Disciples to pursue, instead, Paul's more individualistic revelatory route to faith.
I'm afraid I don't agree. You can't jump from the first to the fifth century and then the fifteenth as if no other sociological changes had occurred in the meantime. Nor can you really use evidence of a dispute 1500 after the event to say something about the early Church.

Also it's evident that, with the establishment of a diaconate, that the 'social and intimate' route of the disciples lasted a very short time, simply because of the numbers involved. Reading Scripture it's evident, for example, that Peter and John were not 'social and intimate' with the Jerusalem Church, so I think there's more romance to this notion than reality ...

I would have thought it was more Pelagius, with whom Augustine battled manfully, who was the voice of 'individual revelation' — certainly not Augustine, and absolutely not Paul! How you can attribute an 'individualistic revelatory route' to someone who put the clothing on the doctrine of the Mystical Body and the Eucharist ... a doctrine which is anything but individualistic!

These two conflicting tendencies must have been reflected in the oral literature? Correct? How broadly or narrowly did the early Christian community attempt to mediate this line of dispute as it struggled to nail-down Scripture?)
No, I think you're misreading ... where are you getting your data from? And you're jumping all over the place, making all sorts of erroneous chronological assumptions. So no ... I think you're spinning something out of nothing ... evidence please.

Did the oral Tradition provide clear, unifying answers to disputes, Thomas? Or was the oral Tradition, itself, as sectarian and divisive as the disputes likely were?
Your use of 'likely' reveals your hand ... you're assuming a large number of givens because you've precious little ground to make your case if you don't, it seems to me.

The answer is, of course, that the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition gave clear and unambiguous answers to questions ... what happens next is whether one accepts the testimony as it is given, or whether one seeks to alter or shape the testimony to fit certain pre-conceptions and suppositions ... be they, for example, pharisaic Judaism, or Hellenic dualism.

So the short answer is, yes Scripture and Tradition has adequate answers to every inquiry, it then depends on whether the inquirer can accept the answer or not.

As Jesus Himself was deserted by many when He spoke of the Eucharist, which is the central Mystery of the Church, I am in no doubt that there are many, for reasons I cannot explain but sadden my soul, who simply cannot bring themselves to open their hearts to its possibility.

But, be that as it may, the truth remains that Christianity spread like wildfire in the early centuries, like a contagion, and against that spread, the dissent was limited and largely ineffective. Not until political entities weigh into the affair, attempting to temper the development of doctrine according to political expediency, do we get the big issue schisms.

And too, the deeper question ...
Are Christianity's core Truths dual or singular?
Neither ... they are Trinitarian.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
The Jews, by nature, are not given to compromise
although we are given to reconciling apparently contradictory texts.

But it was the Jews who spotted someone with Paul they knew to be a Gentile, and started a riot, not the Jewish Christians. Paul was hauled up before the Council of Elders, and it was the Jews who plotted to kill him. Even the Sanhedrin could not prevent them.
says who? what council of elders? which sanhedrin? this is new to me.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I still have no clear picture of how the oral Tradition shaped early Christianity.

Thomas

Please don't berate me because I have questions.
They are only questions, not assertions.
I admit I skate on thin ice.
I am trying to understand.

PROBLEM NUMBER 1:
First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians 2 said:
And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
... and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
... Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, ...
Paul, if I understand him correctly, is telling these secular, sophisticated, philosophical Greeks ... not to think about life Philosophically, not to 'think like a Greek' ... but to enter into life in an entirely new manner, in a way which likely will seem foolish to the sophists all around them. (Secular wisdom and secular folly are equally unimportant, "which none of the rulers of this age have understood." Every human is foolish before God. Yet God casts none away.)

Paul himself, a Hellenized Jew, sees the danger of attempting to rationalize Christianity within the Greek model. 'You cannot enter thru this door of reason, of gnosis,' Paul seems to insist. You will not find TRUTH thru this entryway. You will find Truth only thru an OPEN HEART.

PROBLEM NUMBER 2:
Letter of Paul to the Galatians 3 said:
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, ... ?
... This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
... the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin,
... before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law,
... Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ,
... But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God thru faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

"You foolish Galatians..."
Paul is a feisty dude, isn't he?
(Even when Paul is acting in all humility. He just can't help himself.)

Paul is telling these Jewish Christians, who feel considerable discomfort at communing with Gentiles, to ... 'get used to it.' That "we Jews" are no longer living under the Law of the Torah. God's promise to Abraham has arrived. That "we" Christians - all of us, Jews and Gentiles alike - are living now in a new age, under a new covenant. One based not upon Conscience when faced with sin, but one based upon Grace which redeems sin. Not dignity before God earned by righteous conduct, but a gift freely given by God to those who willingly choose to walk in Jesus' footsteps, become a 'son of God' like Jesus. To open their heart.

The new compact with God involves not the Law, but GRACE. Grace is the new Divine Truth. Paul saw a deep danger with Jewish Christians backsliding into Judaic practices, and closing up their heart to other Christians - thus closing up their heart to God's grace. Closing their heart to Divine Truth itself.

& & &

So, Thomas. Don't tell me there is no 'trouble in paradise' within early Christendom. From Corinthians and Galatians alone, one dispute after another keeps popping up. And Paul appears to have become nascent-Christendom's top troubleshooter. By letter or visit, Paul steps into the breach to stem the dissention. And Paul seems to have very clear eyes regarding potential pitfalls which the new faith addresses.

And the two most troubling pitfalls - nodes of dissention?
'Philosophy' and 'Law.'

Paul works tirelessly, to:
1. Wean Hellenized Christians from reliance upon Greek Philosophy.
2. Wean Jewish Christians from strict reliance upon Judaic Law.

As a Christian ward-healer, Paul is relentless. Paul is as feisty and as unrelenting as he, pre-conversion, must have been as a persecutor of Christians. But, with Paul, everything comes back to the OPEN HEART of the believer and the GRACE of God.

& & &

This is how, in my limited awareness, Thomas, I read the writings of Paul. He has to work damn hard to get Christianity on track. But he appears to have a remarkably clear focus as to what this track is.

In his style of argument, Paul rigorously avoids:
1) speaking 'wise' sophistries,
2) quoting Torah to invoke its 'rules' of conduct.

Besides Paul's irascible personality as drill-sergeant and coach to the new faith, Paul's chief ecclesiastical/rhetorical tool (I have to assume) comes via his appeal to the nascent religion's Oral Tradition.

How does Paul employ the Oral Tradition?

Helmut Koester said:
... The earliest quotations or words of Jesus that we have are not in our gospels, but they are in the letters of Paul. And each one of these words of Jesus that appears in the letters of Paul is advice for the regulation of the life of the community. That's where they function. And what does not serve such purpose would not enter the oral tradition.
... even the earliest layer of the tradition of Jesus' words has already been formulated, not for the purposes of memory, but for the purposes of community life ...

If I am getting this right:

The Oral Tradition is a body of anecdotal literature which helps shape the practice of the faith. Appealing to this literature, in times of crisis or dissention, helps focus the argument in the direction of core beliefs - beliefs which regulate the day-to-day life of the community.
OPEN HEART and GRACE.
To not be distracted by everyday human frailties nor be derailed by individual personality-irks and corporeal-urges.

The deep TRUTH of the Oral Tradition is that it keeps the Community on-point. The Oral Tradition keeps the ecology of the community balanced and forward-directed. But first and foremost, the Oral Tradition keeps the Community centered and grounded - because ultimately everything points back to core meanings. Each member of the Community behaving as a Christian behaves. Walking in Jesus' shoes. A 'son {or daughter} of God.'

...
Penelope

 
What within this oral Tradition is a fact-based truth, that historians inside of and outside of the Christian community can point to and say (with reasonable certainty), "This is true" ... ?

And what within the patchwork oral Tradition is a NEED-based TRUTH (a psychological or spiritual TRUTH) in that each greenhorn Christian ... can be said to have {subscribed to it} ... ?

Bananabrain (speaking as regards the Torah) and Thomas (speaking as regards the Bible's New Testament) each have pointed out to me:
the Oral Tradition precedes (written) Scripture.

Whatever Divine TRUTH, which is to be found in Scripture, is embedded (first) within the Oral Tradition.

The question I asked, a couple posts ago (above), was left hanging.

& & &

Helmut Koester said:
ORAL TRADITION
Now what happens as an oral tradition arises about an historical event or an historical person is that, strangely enough, the first oral tradition is not an attempt to remember exactly what happened, but is rather a return into the symbols of the tradition that could explain an event. Therefore, one has to imagine that legend and myth and hymn and prayer are the vehicles in which oral traditions develop. The move into a formulated tradition that looks as if it was a description of the actual historical events is actually the end result of such a development.

This makes the Oral Tradition make sense to me ... and the deep TRUTH it contains.

& & &

Scripture - whether Judaic Torah or Christian Bible - (while these writings might get a few facts right) ... is not based in fact. Scripture is not fact-based.

There is no literal Truth within Scripture.
The deep TRUTH of these writings stems from the Oral Tradition.
This deep TRUTH is entirely 'need-based.'

The deep TRUTH, embedded within the Oral Tradition, is a 'symbolic convergence' ... a highly focused and compelling fantasy.

& & &


...

(See:
'Belief & Spirituality':
"Faith as an emotionally powerful fantasy = visual mind-pictures which touch a person's inner core.")

& & &

...
(Thomas
for your reference ...
This is not a question.
This is an assertion.)

...
Penelope

 
Please don't berate me because I have questions.

I don't mean to ... I rather thought you were telling me the way it is, rather than asking about it. I try to be precise, because if I put 'me' into it, I tend to go off into tangents, into 'deep water' areas of personal inquiry, and tend to waffle ... so I try and stay impersonal, and 'on song' with regard to sure doctrine ... sorry if I offended ...

PROBLEM NUMBER 1:
Paul, if I understand him correctly, is telling these secular, sophisticated, philosophical Greeks ... not to think about life Philosophically, not to 'think like a Greek' ... but to enter into life in an entirely new manner, in a way which likely will seem foolish to the sophists all around them...
We-e-e-ll, Greek philosophy was not divorced from religion — the true practice of philosophy had a moral, ascetical and religious dimension, unlike the practice of philosophy today ... and if one reads Acts, and Paul's address to the Greeks, he starts from their religious sentiment, and goes into the philosophical, which would not have been alien to them, the Greeks had a profound religious sensibility — "In him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28) — the summation of Paul's argument, is in fact a direct quote from the Cretan poet Epiphemides, who had been dead some 6oo years by then. So no, personally I don't think philosophy is an issue (but then I'm a Christian Neoplatonist, I revel in it — some don't)

Christian doctrine explained many of its ideas through Greek philosophy, and I would say 'corrected' many of the inherrent errors in Greek philosophy — St Maximus's revision of the platonic ternary 'rest - movement - becoming' to the Christian 'becoming - movement - rest' solved many of the problems that Plato himself acknowledged.

Then again, the idea of Logos is taken from the Stoics and refined ... in fact Christian doctrine has 'baptised' Stoicism, Platonism and Aristotelianism.

And the whole idea of the person, as an autonomous being, derives directly from Christian doctrine and the reworking of the philosophy of being, nature and person in light of Christian revelation.

And again, Paul was erudite in Greek as well as Hebrew, and could converse easily with philosophers or priests ... Tarsus was a major intellectual centre, and studies have shown marked similarities between Paul's writing and famous Stoic, Lucius Annaeus Seneca.

Taking another tack, many secular scholars now refer to Luke, the author of Acts, for his insights into Jewish, Greek and Roman culture. Historians now realise that Luke provides a vivid portrait of a Jerusalem as a city teetering on the edge of revolt, of the Roman authorities desperately trying to keep the lid on things, and of a Greek culture passed its prime, living off its reputation and like all cultures in decline, all pose and little substance ...

Paul himself, a Hellenized Jew, sees the danger of attempting to rationalize Christianity within the Greek model. 'You cannot enter thru this door of reason, of gnosis,' Paul seems to insist. You will not find TRUTH thru this entryway. You will find Truth only thru an OPEN HEART.
Don't forget that Paul was a zealot Pharisee, a hardline Jewish fundamentalist who possessed a Greek education, but I don't think you can call him 'Hellenized' ... he would have been as contemptuous of Hellenized Jews as he was of Christians, only he saw Christianity as the bigger blasphemy and therefore more dangerous.

Gnosis is a whole other issue. In the world in meant knowledge, for the Christian, it meant being. So the gnostic was never changed, he either was born gnostic (a pneumatic) or associated himself with a gnostic (a psychic) or was, like the vast majority of humanity, counted among the hylic, and beyond redemption. Gnostic salvation was attained by attachment to external knowledge ... whereas Christian salvation, and its gnosis, was to do with a rebirth of the actual being of the person, baptism, metanoia (change of heart) and theosis — participation in the Divine Life.

Paul saw that philosophy was not void of truth or wisdom, but it's limitation was the human intellect ... it was not Revelation, and so he was quite prepared to put philosophy to work to explain the Christian Mysteries, as much as they can be explained.

PROBLEM NUMBER 2:
"You foolish Galatians..." Paul is a feisty dude, isn't he?
And then some! 'Prickly' is not the word for it.

(Even when Paul is acting in all humility. He just can't help himself.)
He's a man driven by a vision, and one of those guys, whatever he did, it's always at full throttle ... no half measures ...

Paul is telling these Jewish Christians, who feel considerable discomfort at communing with Gentiles, to ... 'get used to it.'
I tend to see it more as 'don't you get it?' but you're right, that's what all Paul's letters are ... "this is this" as Robert de Niro says in Deerhunter ... but then if there was the soft cop/hard cop routine, then Paul would be very much the hard cop.

I was once told the only way to read Corinthians is in a rage ... but it is a poem of love at the same time ... a rage of love ... the only thing I can think of as equivalent offhand is I once heard someone reading "Do not go gentle into that good night" by Dylan Thomas:
"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
A poem written to his father, who was dying ... you hear po-faced poets reading it in that 'poetry' voice, which is a travesty ... it should be full of pain and sorrow and anger and love and grief ...

The new compact with God involves not the Law, but GRACE. Grace is the new Divine Truth. Paul saw a deep danger with Jewish Christians backsliding into Judaic practices, and closing up their heart to other Christians - thus closing up their heart to God's grace. Closing their heart to Divine Truth itself.
Absolutely. But the key to Grace is Jesus Christ — One Church, one faith, one body, one Christ.

So, Thomas. Don't tell me there is no 'trouble in paradise' within early Christendom.
Are you asking me or telling me?

I have never said there wasn't dispute, all I'm saying is the doctrine — the Apostolic Teaching — was there first, that's what the disputes were about.

As someone said — you have to have orthodoxy before you can have heresy. You have to have a doctrine, before you can have a dispute about it.

But the Apostolic Teaching — most accurately contained and transmitted in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions — can be traced back to day one without compromise, it was and is not something spun out of nothing as they went along. The Apostolic Teaching was there right at the beginning, and it can be traced all the way through.

Paul was the first to write (as far as we know), and tackles the problems of his day, c50-65AD. Mark (c65AD?) focusses on the Messianic Secret and why Jesus didn't declare Himself divine right from the outset; Matthew (c70AD?) focusses on the problems and persecutions of the Jewish-Christian converts, and 'proves' Christ is the one of whom the Hebrew Scriptures speak. Luke (80AD?) on the problems and persecutions of the Gentile church, John (120AD?) on nascent gnosticism (the teachings of Cerinthus) and the dualist teaching taking root at Ephesus — but the Apostolic Faith was there before the dispute, it did not emerge as the result of it.

And the two most troubling pitfalls - nodes of dissention? 'Philosophy' and 'Law.'
Again, it depends on what timeframe you're talking about. The issue with the Law and the Jews was really done and dusted with the Fall of Jerusalem (70AD) and the Council of Jamnia (80AD).
The immediate problem (1st century) for Jewish Christians was conflict with the Jews, which led to wonder if they'd made an error, and for the Gentile Christians it was why didn't the Jews accept Christ, which made them wonder, too. There were riots in Rome between Jews and Christians, and probably so elsewhere.

Then came persecution, (1st - 3rd) local spats with regional authorities (ie at Ephesus where the Christians were converting so many pagans they were destabilising the temple economy) and things like Nero in Rome.

Philosophy was not so much of a problem — it was largely peripheral until the fourth century and then became problematic because secular authorities were either trying to determine doctrine, or manipulate the church for their own ends.

All the Greeks Fathers were philosophers — only Irenaeus, the first, was a Churchman before he was a philosopher. Some were absolute geniuses of philosophy, and wrote the most arcane and complex stuff in support of Christian doctrine — Gregory of Nyssa goes on about 'spacing', St Maximus goes on about 'movement' ... then, of course, you have the Basils and the Ambroses, wonderful pastoral theologians ...

Paul works tirelessly, to:
1. Wean Hellenized Christians from reliance upon Greek Philosophy.
I really think that's wrong. Paul's audience was primarily Jewish, and I'm not sure where you can see a dispute with Greek philosophy? Can you cite your examples?
2. Wean Jewish Christians from strict reliance upon Judaic Law.
Yes I can see that.
As a Christian ward-healer, Paul is relentless. Paul is as feisty and as unrelenting as he, pre-conversion, must have been as a persecutor of Christians. But, with Paul, everything comes back to the OPEN HEART of the believer and the GRACE of God.
Yes it does ... but that's my point: The apostolic doctrine, the Gospel (including Paul's) was there before the disputes, so the disputes only show that there were disputes, they don't show that the doctrine changed.

This is how, in my limited awareness, Thomas, I read the writings of Paul. He has to work damn hard to get Christianity on track. But he appears to have a remarkably clear focus as to what this track is.
Well Christianity was on track before Paul ... but no-one worked harder than he to spread the word abroad, and people are people everywhere, and fall into old ways, old habits ... not so much has changed in 2,000 years. if Paul were around today, he'd be preaching the same thing.

Paul's chief ecclesiastical/rhetorical tool (I have to assume) comes via his appeal to the nascent religion's Oral Tradition.
No. It comes from his own conversion — Paul preaches that point quite adamantly, he received his gospel from no man.

In Acts, Paul is struck blind by his conversion, and is taken to Damascus, and instructed at the house of Ananias ... in Paul's own words, he is struck by his conversion, and heads south, to Arabia ... I believe, for various reasons, he went to Mount Sinai, then he went to Damascus, and spent time with Christians there ... but as Saul before his conversion was a Christian hunter, I am pretty sure he would have been pretty well clued up on their habits, practices and doctrines, if he was going to argue with and accuse them.

How does Paul employ the Oral Tradition?
Paul is a direct source of Oral Tradition. The only time he refers to teachings other than his own gospel is to show how the two coincide. So Paul's preaching is Oral Tradition, and when he writes letters, reminding his congregations what he'd taught them ... Written Tradition!

The Oral Tradition is what the Apostles were preaching, almost daily, in the Temple in Jerusalem and abroad. So it starts with 1st generation eye witness stuff, as well as those who had seen and even known Christ.

OPEN HEART and GRACE.
Oh, there's more than that. Open heart is a common spiritual teaching, not unique to Christianity ... and the same goes for grace, really ... so it's one thing to say it, it's another to realise what it means in Christian terms, what, if anything, is unique to the term in the Christian Tradition.

To not be distracted by everyday human frailties nor be derailed by individual personality-irks and corporeal-urges.
Again, this is common, so it's not uniquely Christian.

The deep TRUTH of the Oral Tradition is that it keeps the Community on-point.
Many view Tradition as a monolithic encumbrance, a fossilisation or ossification of something. Actually it's quite the reverse, it's the sap, the blood, the life force which animates. It's constantly evolving, and always the same.

If you want to know the Christian Tradition, look at:
1: Scripture — the exoteric teaching;
2: Creed — the esoteric teaching;

But, as in all things, both have their own language and their own hermeneutic, and without those keys, as Christ said and Paul echoed, you never really get to the meat of the matter.

Thomas
 
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