Jesus Christ: The God in the midst

Jesus was a man who was born sinless and who restored the failure of Adam.
"The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly." 1 Corinthians 15:46-49

"If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new." 2 Corinthians 5:17

Not the same old creature restored (Adam was never heavenly), but a new creation.

Thomas
 
Been around a lot of christians and have never seen this new creation yet.
But I don't judge people or just look at the superficial aspects.
Discernment is different from judgment.
I have seen that people who had various ....lets say...inner issues, became softened and were nicer people, but I have seen the same in other religions as well.
 
I think you'd be better served by understanding the doctrine, as the saints and mystics speak from there.
Theology of the Body is a good a place as any to approach a massive subject.
The Family in God's Plan in the Catechism of the Catholic Church might suit you better.
Thomas, thanks for the links. I will read it

And this is where I think you're on your own, for no-one else holds that. I would suggest the '3 dimensions of love' are reflections of the Trinity, and the family is just one reflection of Trinitarian love, but it's not the only reflection, and a reflection is just a reflection — what lives inwardly depends on the individual, and that is what they contribute to the family.
God (M+ F in total harmony) wanted to create the first trinity on earth with Adam (M) and Eve (F) becoming one with him.

1)God (origin) M and F
2)then (division) perfected Adam (M) + perfected Eve (F)
3)then (union) again through the creation of a child who is the unity of their love.

In summary, Origin-Division-Union is the course of development that begin in God (the Origin), divides, and then unites again

The trinity is incomplete. The fruitful trinity becomes a "quatrinity" if you will. What we call the trinity today is a spiritual trinity, not a physical one.

More accurately, since God is neither masculine nor feminine, human nature represents God's image (as Scripture says, Genesis 1:27 — human nature is created in the Divine image, and then is aspected into masculine and femine, not because God is, but because of the nature of the created order).
God is not separated, nor broken up, nor divided out ... so the soul knows God by degree, but it's the whole God, not an aspect or a part of God.
God's invisible nature is clearly perceived in the things he has made Rom 1:20
Everything throughout God's creation has an internal character and external form as well as a m/f or +/- characteristics. From the particules, mineral, plants, animals all the way to humans.
Since God is the first cause of everything, He is the origin of these characteristics..
He is a parent, the parent of humandkind. His Masculinity and femininity are in perfect harmony.

Nonsense. Sorry, but it is. Just just making this up now, to suit your own argument. Show me one saint, one mystic, one monk who wished he was married because he would be a better saint/monk/mystic if he was.
If Jesus had not been killed but would have been able to established the first trinity on earth blessed by God, he would have created the first sinless family to whom we could have been physically grafted to.
This is why singlehood was the better way until the marriage of the lamb.(return of the messiah)
The unit (M+F) is the ultimate reflection of God not singlehood.
I have no doubt that these saints who have kept their purity will be married later on in the spiritual world.

Nonsense again. Our spiritual stability is in direct proportion to our relationship to God, not to our wives.
It is in relation to both (verticaly with God and horizontaly with our spouse)

They provide earthly comfort and solace and companionship, but they do not replace God, nor do they provide something that God Himself cannot provide.
God's purpose for His creation is the family. It is the base of power and multiplication for God on earth. Within a family you can relate to the past (grand parents), the present (your parents) and the futur (your children and lineage. To say that your spouse is only to provide earthly comfort, solace and companionship is discarding his or her whole spirit being who lives for eternity. I am totally shocked !!!

Yes it is ... but not the love you're talking about ... you're talking about the requirement you have of a spouse to make you feel a complete person ... true love is not about requirement, true love is about freedom.
It is not about feeling a complete person. It is being a couple in the image of God. True love is about living for the sake of the other. It is the way we grow our heart

Only having a family only ensures continuance of the species for another generation ... that's all it does.
The species is not made of monkeys but children of God. Through your descendance you live on earth through eternity. The grandfather is in the grandson and the son is in the grandfather.
Between love, life and lineage, lineage is the most important

Only the love of God can ensure eternal life ... doesn't depend on being married, doesn't depend on family.
Our life on earth is a training to learn to love since Love is the air we breathe in the spiritual world. The family is the school of love that extend to the society. The love of God is unconditional parental love. We are co-creator with God and experience the different realms of the heart by creating our own family. God wants to be within the couple in love too.

to be followed.
Thomas thank for exchanging with me on these important matters
 
God (M+ F in total harmony) wanted to create the first trinity on earth with Adam (M) and Eve (F) becoming one with him.
No. There is only one Trinity — there is only one God. The Trinity does not become a multiplicity by our incorporation into the Divine nature. God is One. Nor does God parcel Himself out in little bits throughout creation.

The trinity is incomplete.
Well now you're refuting everything Scripture says about God. Furthermore there's not one single shred of evidence in Scripture to suggest God is incomplete ... you are so far away from Christianity now ...

The fruitful trinity becomes a "quatrinity" if you will.
This statement, by every word of Scripture, is metaphysically, theologically, philosophically and logically impossible. You don't understand what the Bible means by God, this is so far into fantasy, it doesn't even possess enough truth to be considered a heresy.

Tell me, if you marry and have a kid, then you have your 'trinity' ... two kids, is one of them superfluous, a spare in case of accident, of does God become a 'quintunity'? Does God keep subdividing Himself by the number of kids you have?

God's invisible nature is clearly perceived in the things he has made Rom 1:20
Yes it is, and it is is visible in everything. The family is nothing special in that regard.

Everything throughout God's creation has an internal character and external form as well as a m/f or +/- characteristics. From the particules, mineral, plants, animals all the way to humans.
Exactly ... and everything is triune-shaped because Trinity is its cause, and through this man can perceive God. But there are triunes everywhere, not just in the family structure. Body soul and spirit is a triune through which man accesses God. Memory, intellect and the will is a triune through which man accesses the truth of his own nature.

If Jesus had not been killed but would have been able to established the first trinity on earth blessed by God, he would have created the first sinless family to whom we could have been physically grafted to.
Nonsense again. You clearly do not understand Scripture at all.

God's purpose for His creation is the family.
No, God's purpose for creation is union with Him. Family is one of the expressions.

Within a family you can relate to the past (grand parents), the present (your parents) and the futur (your children and lineage).
And that's all you can do. Within the unity of God you can relate to the whole of creation, and the whole of humanity, past, present and future... not just some humans in your immediate physical bloodline, but all humanity according to your nature. The family then is one of many triune microcosms, the life in the Unity of the Holy Spirit is in communio with all creation, the macrocosm.

The love of God transcends the love shared within the family. Christ calls man to love God, and to love one another — John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17, Romans 13:8, Thessalonians 4:9, 1 Peter 1:22, 1 John 3:11, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 4:7, 1 John 4:11, 1 John 4:12, 2 John 1:5, John 13:35 ... no mention of family, but every mention of fellowship, koinonia (Greek) communio (Latin).

To say that your spouse is only to provide earthly comfort, solace and companionship is discarding his or her whole spirit being who lives for eternity. I am totally shocked !!!
Well, prepare yourself for another shock...

"He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37
I suggest you love the idea of the family more than you love the idea of God: You're bending the Word of God to fit your idea of the family, and discarding God where it doesn't suit your own agenda.

"And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:29-30

We are co-creator with God ...
Now you're claiming your own divinity now ...

Thomas
 
No. There is only one Trinity — there is only one God. The Trinity does not become a multiplicity by our incorporation into the Divine nature. God is One. Nor does God parcel Himself out in little bits throughout creation.
What I wrote is that by reaching perfection A&E would have created a trinity of oneness with God on earth.
Instead they made a base with Lucifer. Jesus said we are like our father satan.

Well now you're refuting everything Scripture says about God. Furthermore there's not one single shred of evidence in Scripture to suggest God is incomplete ... you are so far away from Christianity now ...
What I mean is that God has everything, power, money, knowledge but he cannot experience love alone. We need an object to our love. God is the same.
The motivation for God to create was love. His essence is heart.When God created the cosmos and all the creation for his children to grow in it. He started from man and woman as the end in mind. God wanted to experience joy through his children. He feels joy when an object that he has created has reached pefection through free will.
His love is completed by us. I was not talking about God Himself being uncomplete.

This statement, by every word of Scripture, is metaphysically, theologically, philosophically and logically impossible. You don't understand what the Bible means by God, this is so far into fantasy, it doesn't even possess enough truth to be considered a heresy.
Tell me, if you marry and have a kid, then you have your 'trinity' ... two kids, is one of them superfluous, a spare in case of accident, of does God become a 'quintunity'? Does God keep subdividing Himself by the number of kids you have?
What I called "quatrinity" is a formula for God to create a foundation of 4 where God is the origin and also the center. Please try to understand what I am saying. 4 include the fruit or the new creation
If A&E will have grown staying sinless and God could have blessed their union, God could have been at the center of their family.
It is A&E responsibility to become one with God but it is also their responsibility to become one between them in order to create new life.

God created only one man and one woman directly Himself. Why ?
God create his children through us as co-creators.

No. There is no quintinity ...etc

Yes it is, and it is is visible in everything. The family is nothing special in that regard.
That is not true. The family is the cherry on the cake if you will.
In gen 1:28 God clearly state that we need to subdue the creation which is not in God's direct dominion.
God multiply his children through the family no individuals. it is more than special.

Nonsense again. You clearly do not understand Scripture at all.
???

No, God's purpose for creation is union with Him. Family is one of the expressions.
The individual union wih Him is the first step. The second is multiplication
Gen 1:28. This is totally scriptural 100%

And that's all you can do. Within the unity of God you can relate to the whole of creation, and the whole of humanity, past, present and future... not just some humans in your immediate physical bloodline, but all humanity according to your nature. The family then is one of many triune microcosms, the life in the Unity of the Holy Spirit is in communio with all creation, the macrocosm.
The family is the basic unit. People want to be one forever.
I am not talking of just relating to only one lineage. You misunderstand what I wrote.
Jesus Gospel start with Jesus lineage. The Kingdom is headed by a King and a Queen. We are born of parents who can be the king and queen of our own family. God Himself is the parent of all mankind.
We were reborn spiritually through Jesus and the holy spirit, not Jesus alone. Who is the holy spirit the comforter ?

The love of God transcends the love shared within the family. Christ calls man to love God, and to love one another — John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17, Romans 13:8, Thessalonians 4:9, 1 Peter 1:22, 1 John 3:11, 1 John 3:23, 1 John 4:7, 1 John 4:11, 1 John 4:12, 2 John 1:5, John 13:35 ... no mention of family, but every mention of fellowship, koinonia (Greek) communio (Latin).
By learn to love our own brothers and sister, we learn to love our fellow men. By learning to love our parents, we learned to love other adults.
Without experiencing the love of God as a child within your own family through you parents we are deficient later in life.
As I said God designed the family as the school of love of God to prepare us for the world. We are not alone in a factory and live in a commune.

Well, prepare yourself for another shock...
Thomas, women were created to be the daughters of God and represente the feminine side of God. Seriously, I think you are rejecting God in a way.
God Himself said that it was not good for man to be alone. And for Good reason.
All of this pooh poohing that the family is not special is really disturbing. God want ideal families where he can experience all the interactions of love. We can please God by creating such a family

"He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37
Yes we need to love God first. We need to create God's centered families.

I suggest you love the idea of the family more than you love the idea of God: You're bending the Word of God to fit your idea of the family, and discarding God where it doesn't suit your own agenda.
That is not true. It is very hard to separate from your loved one to do God's will (spouse, children). I have experienced it.

"And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:29-30
God could not blessed A&E union. They created Satan's lineage. God cannot accept children with Satan's blood lineage. When Jesus retun at the time of the resurrection during the second coming, we are not considered married in God's lineage but need to be cleared from the original sin so he can blessed our union in his lineage. ( I am just keeping it simple here).
After the human fall there was a need for religion to guide us through the process of restoration and preparation to receive the Messiah

Through Jesus' resurrection on the cross we are reborn spiritually through him and the Holy spirit but we are still being born up to today with the original sin and are still born as part of satan's lineage. (That is scriptural).
 
What I wrote is that by reaching perfection A&E would have created a trinity of oneness with God on earth.
Still wrong, however. There is but one Trinity ... no other. The participation of humanity in the life of the Trinity is by invitation into the Interior Life of God, not by establishing ersatz trinities all over the place.

What I mean is that God has everything, power, money, knowledge but he cannot experience love alone. We need an object to our love. God is the same.
Oh good grief. For one you're assuming God is just like you. And for another you seem unaware that "God is love" as the Apostle says, love is not something that God does, love is what God is. You need an object of love ... God does not, He is both Object and Subject.

God suffers no 'need' of anything.

God wanted to experience joy through his children.
No, God wishes that all creation could experience the joy of His own Being.

Until you take 'you' off the pedestal that rightly belongs to God, you won't understand.

In gen 1:28 God clearly state that we need to subdue the creation which is not in God's direct dominion.
Rubbish. You're assuming an imperialist view of 'dominion'. Think of it more as husbandry (should make sense) ... that's you're been tasked with looking after something so you can get a sense of that which looks after you.

We were reborn spiritually through Jesus and the holy spirit, not Jesus alone. Who is the holy spirit the comforter ?
The Third Person of the Holy Trinity that is God.
Three in One and One in Three.

Without experiencing the love of God as a child within your own family through you parents we are deficient later in life.
Actually that's demonstrably not the case. Orphans are not incapable of love, and some who never knew love have learned to value love more than those who did ... so again you're making this up as you go along.

I am not knocking the family. In Catholicism the family unit is a church, but it is a church that participates in Divine Love through the gift of God, not because God is hungry for love, nor because God needs families to fulfill Himself.

Well, Soleil, the reason why I respond is not for your sake, but for the benefit of others who might read what you write and fall into your errors ... I think I have sufficiently demonstrated now that you have no real understanding of Scripture, little of Christianity, and nothing of Christ, and that this philosophy of yours is a Tower of Babel of your own manufacture, and to which you are wedded.

So I shall withdraw from further discussion.

Thomas
 
Doctrinally, I pretty much second Thomas. I can hardly see how the scriptures are twisted to support the view of God in the way that is being supposed.

A few points that concern me socially, in the sense of one's views of other people-

First, the issue of the necessity of marriage. From a social standpoint, this is just rubbish. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is. People do not marry for a plethora of reasons, and this does not mean they are defective in any way. Some people never meet a person they wish to marry. Some prefer to dedicate their lives to service to the broader society. Some people are considered unattractive and have no hope of marriage. None of that limits their salvation. I have an uncle who is severely handicapped and he cannot marry or even support himself, but he has a very pure faith, trusting God and being very patient through all his suffering. It is ridiculous to say that he, by virtue of his handicaps, would be incapable of demonstrating the Christian life and coming into full salvation.

From a spiritual perspective, it becomes even odder to think of God and salvation in this way. God is not both masculine and feminine, but rather beyond human distinctions of gender. While we may relate to God in a way that anthropomorphizes God, making God more understandable, comfortable, or relateable to ourselves, it is our own limitations that cause us to do this, and it is through God's grace that God allows for this comfort. But we should not confuse our experience of God, limited as it is by our human condition, with God Itself. Although, as a Christian Druid, I can appreciate the imagery of God-Goddess union, this is not a correct assessment of God's true nature. Rather, as I see it, it is a byproduct of my own anthropomorphization of God and, more concretely, a bias of my intellect in relating more to things like myself (animals) than to things unlike myself (bacteria or plants).

Male and female is not the whole order of creation, but rather only a part of creation (complex animals) and even then, creation provides more options than only two. Just because creation offers a glimpse into God's Being, does not mean that it is an easy book to read. Not only does the concept about God soleil offers fail to be evident in scripture, it also fails to be evident in nature, unless one puts blinders on an is selective about one's evidence.

Coming out of a tradition that reads the "Book of Nature" as sacred scripture itself (that is, sees creation itself as sacred and seeks to have understanding of the Divine through experiencing and observing creation)- this type of "reading" requires discernment and a hard look at one's pre-existing biases just as interpreting the Bible does. Otherwise, one sees what one wants to see.

Now, I will tell you that I'm married and I love my husband very much. I also am from the mystical bent in Christianity. In no way, in any of my experience of God, have I ever had any doubt as to my priorities- first to God, and then to all else. My husband is not "my other half," but rather a whole and complete child of God all on his own. The kind of marriage soleil describes sounds, to me, like a codependent one. I had my relationship with God long before my relationship with my husband; I am not made whole by marriage but by Christ. The "other half" of myself that I would be missing is the divine half, the half offered by the grace of God in Christ, my Savior. Marriage does not save me. Christ saves me. And the point of life is not to necessarily have physical children, but spiritual children. If one lives one's life for God, it is inevitable that other people will awaken to God through one's testimony, which is one's life. And this is providing a light on the path toward awakening to being a child of God, it is midwifing the birth of people who are awake to God's love, which is not marital, but rather unconditional. Monks, nuns, saints, and so on, have not necessarily removed themselves from the world, but rather are in it in a different way. For most people, marriage and family is the temporary comfort that can take the place of God unless one is careful about this. Those that choose not to marry take on a greater challenge because they choose to face the world without this temporary comfort, facing the deep questioning and "dark night of the soul," the challenges of a spiritual life, without anyone to distract them, to provide escape and comfort. I can say honestly that I am very happy to be married to my husband, but I can see that he provides a comfort and an escape when I am burdened in my spiritual life. And as a result, I don't have to face these challenges head-on as I would if I were a nun. I can put them aside and rest in my marriage, but this means that I am not developing as completely in my capacity to rest in Christ alone. This does not mean that my spiritual life is in any way negated or that I think I made the wrong choice. I am who I am, and God knows me better than I know myself. I believe I am meant to be married. But I do not kid myself about the "ease" of a monastic life, because I am enough of a mystic to know that it isn't all about escapism or fluffy goodness. It's hard work and sometimes it is crushingly difficult.

All that said, while Thomas provided doctrinal discussion, my own views are as a result of my ongoing experience of God Itself. I had a very, very distinct vision about five years ago in which God demanded that I prioritize God as my first and only lasting need, recognizing all others as gifts and blessings, but not mistaking them for my deliverance. This was done in a beautiful and very fulfilling way, a loving way- demonstrating to me the fullness of God's grace. To me, this was a peak experience- there is nothing I experience in my earthly life that comes close to that joy and love- and I understood in a visceral way that God is complete and, if I am trusting of God, I am made complete.

I will leave with a Drudic version of the Trinity that I think may help explain why doctrinally, the family model is something created by God, but not God-in-Itself... The ancient Druidic Trinity was two-fold; first, that God and Goddess produced the Mabon, the Light Child. At first blush, this seems to be your model. But this was not the full story- many Goddesses were themselves triplicate, having an interrelationship within themselves, and furthermore, God and Goddess were considered whole unto themselves, not halves of a single diety. One prominent modern Druidic take on Trinity, operating off the "Father, Son, Spirit" model was: the Uncreated One, the Creative Word, and the Spirit that is the Inspirer.

In this, we see perhaps more pointedly what the Bible tells us about Christ, what it means that Christ was begotten and not made. The Trinity is, as Thomas puts it, Love. And as such, it is not loving as an action, but as a quality of being. The Word is Creative (all things created through Christ), not created. There is nothing in this model that looks like the human family, and that is the point. God is God, and this is, at some level, supremely not human. We are made in God's image, but God is not made in ours. It is somewhat a mystery how our image relates to that of God, and so we must be careful not to limit God through our own imaginings that God is like ourselves. True faith is loving God with all our heart despite not fully understanding God- that is what takes trust. It is recognizing our own limitations and recognizing that God is best suited to judge the needs of every person for spiritual development, not ourselves. It is trust in a supreme Being that we cannot ever fully comprehend or know, but that we can experience and to whom we can choose to surrender.
 
Hi all,
Why does Christ go into the desert to pray? Why does Christ tell us to go to a private place to pray: "enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee." Matthew 6:6

Going back to what I was saying before...Prayer is a different matter. Prayer and overcoming the world is a totally different thing...What did Jesus (then later the apostles) do other than praying?

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (II Tim. 3:11).

By transcending it. Don't deal in it. Rise above it. The world is full of tricks, traps and illusions, and if we try to overcome the world in ourselves, it will defeat us. Better to come close to Christ, and then the world falls away.

I never said we should try to do it by yourselves...Besides it is impossible to anyway.

I could go on and on with this...But I won't.

Jesus is the rock...

But you told me earlier Peter was the rock...Which one do you think is the rock? It is either Peter or Jesus...

Take 'day star' — the Latin Old Testament the figure refers to the King of Babylon, who set himself up as a god ... and the Fathers attribute the figure to Lucifer, for both the angel and the king fell victim to their own pride ... but Peter uses the term as a figure for Jesus "until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" 2 Peter 1:19.

"How has thou fallen from heaven, O Shining One (O howl)—Son of the Dawn! (Babylon conspicuous as Venus). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."

It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven (as conspicuous as Venus, the brightest star of the morning) in her wealth, power, and glory.

And don't start with that Lucifer gobledegook...The word Lucifer doesn't even exist...I can go on and on with this one as well just ask soleil.

Satan is NOT Lucifer...Isaiah is always taking about the King of Babylon.

I'm not saying that the interpretations you draw are wrong, but I am positing that the emphasis you apply to certain aspects, drawn out of context, distorts the vision and the message of the text.

Which one...? You don't know how many times I've heard this. Is this out of context?

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy [inspired writing or speaking] of the Scripture is of any private [Gk: ‘its OWN’] interpretation" (II Pet. 1:20).

Did you know that?

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; COMPARING [or ‘matching’] SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 2:13).

Or this?

"…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).

"…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).

"And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).

Or even this?

Jesus tells us in parable of two great witnesses:
"Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which brings forth out of his treasure, NEW AND OLD" (Matt. 13:52).
What "new and old" treasures do "scribes" preserve for us regarding the "kingdom of heaven?" Why the NEW Covenant Scriptures and the OLD Covenant Scriptures, of course. And both the Old (Deut. 17:6 & 19:15), and the New (II Cor. 13:1 & Matt. 18:16) command that we must have two witnesses to establish every Word of God.

The purpose for comparing spiritual with spiritual is to find a spiritual match. There is a spiritual match for every symbol in the book of Revelation. This is a powerful truth that will open the whole Bible to us.
In this truth you will learn the need for those two witnesses to be a "spiritual match." Let me now "spiritually match" two witnesses and see the marvelous eye-opening result.
After being introduced to the Great White Throne in Rev. 20:11, we read of the judgment of every man’s work in fire:
And I saw the dead small and great stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them, and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice the specifics of these verses:
"Every man’s work is to be judged by fire."
  1. EVERY MAN
  2. Every man’s WORK
  3. Every man’s work is to be JUDGED
  4. Every man’s work is to be judged IN FIRE
But we learned that no witness can stand alone. We must have at least TWO WITNESSES to establish the truth of any doctrine. For the simple fact that orthodoxy absolutely refuses to give you a "spiritual match" to these Scriptures, it has enabled them to attach all kinds of unscriptural, extra-scriptural, anti-scriptural heresies to the above Scripture. Why won’t they give you a "second witness," and a "spiritual match" to the above Scripture? Because the only second witness which is a spiritual match to the above Scripture, destroys their whole pagan teaching regarding it, that’s why.
Now then, is there a second witness to: Every man’s work is to be judged by fire? Yes, there is a SECOND witness to this Scripture. But we are looking for more than just a second witness. We have just learned that we are also to "compare [or match] spiritual with spiritual." We are looking for a second witness which is a SPIRITUAL MATCH to these statements that Every man’s work is to be judged in fire."
Would you believe that there is ONE and ONLY ONE such spiritual match to this Scripture in the entirety of the Bible? After I give it to you, you will clearly see why orthodoxy will not even concede that this Scripture IS a second witness and a spiritual match. Here it is:
"Every man’s work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try [test, examine, judge] every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide that he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire" (I Cor. 3:13-15).
There it is: a perfect spiritual match and a second witness to Rev. 20:13-15):

  1. EVERY MAN
  2. Every man’s WORK
  3. Every man’s work TRIED, TESTED OR JUDGED
  4. Every man’s work tried, tested or judged IN FIRE
Why do Christians and theologians hate what I have just shown you? Because when we put these two spiritually matched Scriptures together, we also are given the added knowledge that there is SALVATION in and through this fire which judges us, and the Church doesn’t want all mankind to be saved. Yes, the most evil people who have ever lived, will also be saved one day, but contrary to what all of my detractors constantly lie about my writings, is that they will not be saved before they are purged in "God’s CONSUMING FIRE" of every last vestige of evil and carnality.
But many Christians have written me insisting that these two Scriptures are not spiritual matches, and in fact insist that they are never even a second witness to one another. Be it known to all, that God’s CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE will purge every vestige of these carnal and evil deceptions of THE GREAT WHORE CHURCH OF BABYLON.
They (like we) will first be "ground to POWDER" (Luke 20:18),and then (like we) subjected to "refiners FIRE and fuller’s SOAP" (Malachi 3:2)of Almighty God. The process for them will be the same process as with us, albeit at a later date, and in many cases with greater intensity, and remember that "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD" (Heb. 10:31). But it is not a never-ending fear in eternal torture.

Question: As the world of Christendom predominantly believes that the Bible is to be taken literally, how pray tell is it even within the realm of possibility for them to compare ANYTHING "spiritual with spiritual" from the Scriptures?


Does anyone know what the book of Revelation is really about? It is not about some man that comes to power with some "new religion" that thinks he is God...But try telling that to you're pastor or a christian scholar...

And why is no Scripture its OWN interpretation, we might ask? To protect the integrity of the Scriptures, for one thing. How can a Scripture be its own interpretation when we are told to "compare or MATCH spiritual with spiritual?" One standing alone cannot at the same time be a match to something else. Why then the need for "TWO witnesses" if each Scripture fully interprets itself?
In the example on the judgments by fire (I Cor. 3 and Rev. 20), it was absolutely necessary to have not only two witnesses, but to match one spiritual teaching with another spiritual teaching in order to arrive at the truth. You see, neither Scripture by itself, fully explains God’s "judgments by fire." From I Cor. 3 orthodoxy will concede that the fire is figurative, spiritual, symbolic, and that the believers that go through this fire WILL BE SAVED BY IT. But this same orthodoxy (because they refuse to obey this commandment of God’s Scripture) conclude that the lake of fire of Rev. 20, is not symbolic, even though the whole book is "signified" (Rev. 1:1), which is "symbolized." They say that this fire is literal, and that those that go through it will never be saved.
 
The Greek lexicon describes the name Petros as the masculine name deriving from the same root as the noun petra (as does the femine name Petra) and thus the names draw their meaning from the noun, which can mean a stone, rock, cliff, ledge, the idea of 'a smaller detached stone' is invention.

Ok then, is Peter being refered to in Luke 6:48?

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle ... just in your interpretation of the text.

Fine. After all you do believe in Satan being Lucifer...Talk about reading the context...

Used matephorically in the language of antiquity, the appellation is applied to one who resembles a rock, either by physical stature, or by an unyielding nature, or an indomitable spirit, or unshakable faith ... in that moment Jesus was addressing the faith of Peter...

Oh really? Then did you know that at this time Jesus' Disciples were not even converted? Tell me Thomas what did Peter later do after Jesus' crucifixion that Jesus predicted? If fact what did Peter at the time promise that he would never do?

After years of following Jesus daily the apostles were not as yet converted. In the evening of the last Passover Jesus tells Peter:

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for you, that your faith fall not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32)

Yes indeed, "…when you are converted…." And just when might that be?
Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even ‘force,’ if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about.


Before conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:
"Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).
Famous last words....


Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:
"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).
Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:
"Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).
And the rest is history. When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:
"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Some "Rock" he was...

What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?

"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).



So, what does it take to be converted? Actually, many things but Let's read Matt. 13:15...



"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

We then read this AFTER the crucifxion...


"Then opened He [Jesus] their [the eleven Apostles] understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45).


And then...

 
Still wrong, however. There is but one Trinity ... no other. The participation of humanity in the life of the Trinity is by invitation into the Interior Life of God, not by establishing ersatz trinities all over the place.
God is an invisible and incorporeal being with dual characteristics in harmony. God created Adam and Eve, the masterpiece among the created beings as manifestations of His duality.
Why did He create Adam and Eve ? He did so to have a body, through them.
If Adam had grown to maturity,the invisible God and visible Adam would have become one. As Jesus said, when you see me you see the father. John 14: 6-9.
God, our Heavenly Parent would have become a substantial parent through Adam and Eve. God's heart would dwell in them.

Oh good grief. For one you're assuming God is just like you. And for another you seem unaware that "God is love" as the Apostle says, love is not something that God does, love is what God is. You need an object of love ... God does not, He is both Object and Subject.
God is a personal God. He created human beings as His partners in Love. This is an amazing fact !!! He made us like Himself in His image.

Christianity alone among all religions revealed that kind of God. The early Christians called God "father" like Jesus did. It marked a great religious discovery.
Jesus talked about a God of emotion and personality and introduced God as a personal God.

God suffers no 'need' of anything.
Genesis 6 5The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. 6He was very sorry that he had made them, 7and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them." 8But the LORD was pleased with Noah.
Thomas, how can you say God suffers no need of anything ? God who is the Absolute subject was not pleased and so sorry that He even created man. (His objects)

No, God wishes that all creation could experience the joy of His own Being.Until you take 'you' off the pedestal that rightly belongs to God, you won't understand.
Why are you putting God on an unreachable pedestal ? That is wrong
The words "it is good" make no sense when you are alone. By completely investing Himself God created His object of love . He created His sons and daughters by investing His entire being wih a sincere heart. This is why we love Him. He said I am love. He is both our father and our mother.

Rubbish. You're assuming an imperialist view of 'dominion'. Think of it more as husbandry (should make sense) ... that's you're been tasked with looking after something so you can get a sense of that which looks after you.
I do not understand what you meant ???
God governs heaven and earth through true love.

Actually that's demonstrably not the case. Orphans are not incapable of love, and some who never knew love have learned to value love more than those who did ... so again you're making this up as you go along.
I did not say that Orphans are incapable of love by not being raised by their own parents. What I am saying is that the best gift children can have are two parents that love each other and love them centered on God

I am not knocking the family. In Catholicism the family unit is a church, but it is a church that participates in Divine Love through the gift of God, not because God is hungry for love, nor because God needs families to fulfill Himself.
I totally agree that the family is a home church where God's love can dwell.
Love gets activated when there is a partner or an object of love that responds. God is the origin of love. He has love. Still He created a partner to love. He created the laws of Love.

Well, Soleil, the reason why I respond is not for your sake, but for the benefit of others who might read what you write and fall into your errors ... I think I have sufficiently demonstrated now that you have no real understanding of Scripture, little of Christianity, and nothing of Christ, and that this philosophy of yours is a Tower of Babel of your own manufacture, and to which you are wedded.So I shall withdraw from further discussion.Thomas
I am sorry you feel that way especially after accusing me of putting myself on a pedestal.
 
In no way, in any of my experience of God, have I ever had any doubt as to my priorities- first to God, and then to all else.
I Agree

My husband is not "my other half," but rather a whole and complete child of God all on his own.
I agree. He also represents the masculine side of God.

I had my relationship with God long before my relationship with my husband; I am not made whole by marriage but by Christ.
I agree. Still we can say that when 2 centered on God become one, an other dimension in our realtionship with God is created. It should be part of our spiritual growth.

To be followed
 
I agree. He also represents the masculine side of God.

No, he is a human being. All beings are opportunities to serve and love Christ. God is genderless, so there is no need for a specifically masculine side of God. I suppose if one wishes to have the imagery of a god, like Cerrunos or somesuch, one could imagine one's husband to be that god... but that would be in one's "head." God is a Great Mystery, not something that is represented in our spouse. That's my experience and belief.

I agree. Still we can say that when 2 centered on God become one, an other dimension in our realtionship with God is created. It should be part of our spiritual growth.

Any human relationship causes an opportunity for spiritual growth, as we learn in a new way to grow in the Fruits of the Spirit and how to serve God in our fellow beings in a new interaction. However, the husband-wife relationship is no more or less an opportunity than the other kinds of interactions we might have (parent-child, sibling-sibling, mentor-student, etc.). None of these is specially privileged with regards to our capacity to have a relationship with God. If there were no other human beings on earth except me, I would still be standing before God and able to have a relationship with Christ. Our human relationships are blessings, but they are not necessary for the relationship of God to creation (us).

To be followed

OK. :)
 
Originally Posted by soleil10
Thomas, are you saying that the highest purpose for which a man or woman are born and exist is to pray ?



According to the teachings of the saints and mystics, man comes no closer to God then when in prayer.
I would disagree with this rendering. John of the Cross saw prayer as influenced by selfish motives, including the desire for spiritual pleasure. In fact, I think it's fair to say that Dark Night of the Soul is in part a commentary on the inadequacy of prayer and other conventional devotional methods.

St John's cautions about prayer are very practical by way of a warning so that people are not taken in by their own excessive optimism concerning the power of prayer and the value of wearing themselves out on such a devotional practice with the expectation of experiencing the spiritual pleasures of communion. As John observes, when they don't experience it, "they become greatly discouraged, thinking that they have accomplished nothing."

Contrary to your suggestion, prayer can be just another imperfect human activity that is condemned to failure by attachment.
.
 
Just a quick comment on the idea of vocation...

Martin Luther emphaszied "a genuinely Biblical doctrine that all things are to be done in the name of, for the sake of, and fot the glory of Christ, and that true witness is born" in the form of any kind of work done well,
no less than acts of charity or piety. (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 995). There is no reason to limit this application of this to prayer or any other devotional practices.

one might say that there are no gradations of more worthy acts. There is really no distinction between prayer and any other activity as far as a sense of religious obligation. For reasons I mentioned in my previous post, prayer can be selfish because of attachment. I think Luther would add that an overtly "religious life" can in fact be inconsistent with G-d's calling.
whoever undertakes something without such a call, like the monks and nuns who have run into the monasteries, he in no way serves God by doing this but rather does this contrary to obedience to God. Therefore this example of Christ is to be considered well: that he did not run into the desert on his own volition but rather the Holy Spirit bid him to do it. And we should do the same and undertake nothing from our own notion (of serving God) but rather in everything we do we should be able to say and boast: this was done in obedience and (on account of) the command of the word.
I would conclude that humankind's true vocation is submission. But it's not an authoritarian notion of submission.
the wish to receive the offered promise is no less a divine service ( latreia) than is love. God wishes us to believe Him, and to receive from Him blessings, and this He declares to be true divine service.
It seems the term latreia was used by Paul where the act of service and the act of worship are presented as interchangeable. To accept a vocation of obedience is to respond to G-d calling and to become a "Living Sacrifice." (Romans 12:1)

One might say that faith is a the state of acceptance and commitment. The attitude of faith by which obedience proceeds can be understood as a willingness to "receive or apprehend those things which are offered in the promise concerning Christ." with the expectancy that G-d's strength will be "made perfect in my weakness." and that I will grow into The Likeness despite scattered commitment, self-centredness, faulty judgment, self-righteousness, etc.
 
No, he is a human being. All beings are opportunities to serve and love Christ.
Yes of course

God is genderless, so there is no need for a specifically masculine side of God. I suppose if one wishes to have the imagery of a god, like Cerrunos or somesuch, one could imagine one's husband to be that god... but that would be in one's "head." God is a Great Mystery, not something that is represented in our spouse. That's my experience and belief.
I see God's duality of male and female, + or - in the whole creation from the atom (and smaller) all the way to humans being.
I see a clear difference with my spouse. This makes life so interesting for eternity. God is so cleaver !!! That is my experience.

Any human relationship causes an opportunity for spiritual growth, as we learn in a new way to grow in the Fruits of the Spirit and how to serve God in our fellow beings in a new interaction. However, the husband-wife relationship is no more or less an opportunity than the other kinds of interactions we might have (parent-child, sibling-sibling, mentor-student, etc.). None of these is specially privileged with regards to our capacity to have a relationship with God.
The opportunity to procreate a child in both of our image as the fruit of our love and extend our lineage for eternity is quite awsome. To be able to experience parental love and become one in the most intimate way is not comparable to just any interaction. I can found God in my spouse. She is my "2nd Messiah", if you will. What would I be without her ? I feel that God can be even more present in me when I am one with her.
God's wanted to be part of A&E union but they rejected His commandement. As A&E grew to become God's children, the center og His love, and owner of his creation, Lucifer started to feel less love from God. This is when trouble started.


If there were no other human beings on earth except me, I would still be standing before God and able to have a relationship with Christ. Our human relationships are blessings, but they are not necessary for the relationship of God to creation (us).
You would be on an island alone saying "I love me" talking to yourself. You would be the first and last generation.
We need others to be born, to grow and to learn to love on an horizontal way. Our relationship with God is vertical. God comes in the 90 degre angle where both meet. This is why he said go make peace with your brother before praying to me. God respond to oneness, not twoness because He is one.
If we are divided between our mind and body or between our couple God is sad and want to run away.
When 2 are one is when we can feel the closest to God. Jesus himself said it.
if Cain and Abel could have been one, God would have receive both offering. When Jacob won Esau's heart, they became one. It was a great victory for God.
Can I ask you why you call yourself the path of one ?
 
I see God's duality of male and female, + or - in the whole creation from the atom (and smaller) all the way to humans being.

That seems to me to be far more like Wicca than traditional Christianity. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I don't disagree with the imagery of dualism, but rather with the doctrine of it. What I mean by that is that I believe that God is a Mystery that I cannot define. Where I am finite, God is infinite. Therefore, duality is not to be a definition of God, but rather a way that we approach God. As such, it is not truth itself, but rather something that points toward an experience of truth.

As an aside, the whole of creation is not dualistic. Single-celled organisms, for example, are not dualistic. Sub-atomic particles are not dualistic. Gravity isn't dualistic. There are many examples.

This makes life so interesting for eternity. God is so cleaver !!! That is my experience.

Lots of things make life so interesting for me. The first and foremost of these things that make life interesting is my relationship with God. Of course I can find endless fascinations in the world of human beings, including my spouse and the rest of my family. That's partly why I am an anthropologist- because I find human beings fascinating. But I'm pretty multifaceted and if there were no other people on earth, I'd still find life eternally entertaining. The animals, rocks, trees, rivers, stars... it's all a great variety and a source of connection to other beings.

The opportunity to procreate a child in both of our image as the fruit of our love and extend our lineage for eternity is quite awsome. To be able to experience parental love and become one in the most intimate way is not comparable to just any interaction.

No doubt. But as I said, procreation is something all animals do. Indeed, the plants and bacteria procreate. What makes human beings unique is that they can extend a spiritual consciousness and not just a lineage. The experience of parental love is, no doubt, a wonderful thing. But the experience of spiritual love is, I would argue, the greater thing. This is the agape love we are meant to have for one another, and a love I rarely see in parent-child relationships or in spousal relationships. Therefore, it is not the human relationship that produces unconditional love, but the relationship with God, which then affects all relationships one has.

I can found God in my spouse. She is my "2nd Messiah", if you will. What would I be without her ? I feel that God can be even more present in me when I am one with her.

It does not have to work this way for all people simply because it works this way for you. I feel God can be present in any moment of my life; it is my choice whether or not to acknowledge God's Presence.

God's wanted to be part of A&E union but they rejected His commandement. As A&E grew to become God's children, the center og His love, and owner of his creation, Lucifer started to feel less love from God. This is when trouble started.

This supposes that God's love is somehow finite and that somehow God loved Adam and Eve less at the beginning and more as time went on, and Lucifer felt less love from God as time went on. But this isn't quite how it works in my opinion. God's love abounds without measure to all beings. It is the choice of each being that possesses free will and consciousness whether or not to embrace this love.

You would be on an island alone saying "I love me" talking to yourself. You would be the first and last generation.

Do you think talking to God is talking to oneself? Do you think God only exists in human relationships?

We need others to be born, to grow and to learn to love on an horizontal way. Our relationship with God is vertical. God comes in the 90 degre angle where both meet.

But what "others"? I do not think we need humans specifically in order to love horizontally. One can love the earth, an animal, a tree. And in this, God also meets us. Furthermore, what you were arguing before is the necessity of marriage and children (and implying biological children due to the emphasis on the marital relationship). Yet we can learn to love in our relationship with any human being, not just (or especially) spouse or child.

God respond to oneness, not twoness because He is one.

So why would God be incapable of response to an individual person? If God is one, and I am one person?

If we are divided between our mind and body or between our couple God is sad and want to run away.

If you say so. I try to avoid attributing human feelings and motivations to God. God is God and I am me. I can't suppose God's feelings and motivations due to my own assumptions.

When 2 are one is when we can feel the closest to God. Jesus himself said it.

Please cite scripture- where did Jesus say we are closest to God when we are married? To the contrary, I find I am closest to God whenever I choose to embrace God's Presence. This can be with other people or not. It is always my choice in every situation.

Can I ask you why you call yourself the path of one ?

For a few reasons. :) First, because I am on my own spiritual path and, while I study several religions and practice two of them on a regular basis, I do not claim to be the voice for any particular faith but my own. Second, and more importantly, because I am on a path that seeks The One- God, the Divine. And finally, as an outgrowth of this, because I am on a path that seeks unity and oneness among all beings, the result of harmony within God.
 
I would disagree with this rendering. John of the Cross saw prayer as influenced by selfish motives, including the desire for spiritual pleasure.
OK. Are you saying that St John of the Cross advised people not to pray, or that he never prayed?

Contrary to your suggestion, prayer can be just another imperfect human activity that is condemned to failure by attachment.
.
Rather I think, the fault lies with the human who assumes he knows best for himself and doesn't need instruction.

Thomas
 
OK. Are you saying that St John of the Cross advised people not to pray, or that he never prayed?
Not at all, Thomas. I was merely giving you an example you and
I have discussed before - St John of the Cross - that contradicts
the assertion that prayer is the highest vocation for man (
your Post #7). Moreover, this position would be seen as unBiblical
if you accept the view of vocation that appears in the
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, namely, that the
goal of Christian living is divinisation, it is very possible that one
might lead a fully spiritualized life and spend very little time in prayer.

Rather I think, the fault lies with the human who assumes he knows
best for himself and doesn't need instruction.
I think that may be a clear statement of the problem. But let's
stay on topic.

What St John of the Cross says about the imperfections and
inadequacies of prayer was worth noting in connection with
the assertion that prayer appears as the ultimate method of
communion in mystical theology. I wanted to add that my
reading of St John of the Cross is that conventional
practices like prayer are associated with emotional distress.
This makes perfect sense because as the person approaches
communion, there is a sense of being unacceptable to the L-rd.
St John talks about the dread and anguish that results when
"the soul is not serving God." This concerns likely to become
hightened for the person engaged in prayer.

In this connection, I might mention St Theresa, whose writing
resembles St John's with respect to the uselessness of conventional
religious practice: "Nothing can now profit the soul. Hence all
its good works are useless." (The Interior Castle, p. 11). She
states this after describing the inadequacies of usual prayer
habits.

St Theresa also resembles St John with regard to the element
of distress. The word 'fear' appears a hundred (100) times in
her book Life of Saint Teresa Written by Herself. She specifically
mentions that prayer was essentially a state of fear for her
(p. 350).

You wrote "prayer is the highest vocation for man." (your
Post #37). If we accept this assertion at face value in light
of what both St John of the Cross and St Theresa have told us,
one might conclude that fear and tribulation are an ideal state.

According to the teachings of the saints and mystics,
man comes no closer to God then when in prayer.
On the contrary. It would appear that prayer reveals just how
far we are from G-d.
 
Quote:
According to the teachings of the saints and mystics,
man comes no closer to God then when in prayer. On the contrary. It would appear that prayer reveals just how
far we are from G-d.
Namaste N-N,

I think it is impossible to get physically closer or further away from G!D. As in him we live and breathe and have our being.

Tis like trying to get closer to or running away from your skin, or bones, or shadow. Now we may lose awareness of this proximity, or take it for granted, but we are never alone.

Still reminds me of the Dali Lama, 'You know you are enlightened when everyone you see, you see as enlightened'...and my preacher says "So I went to the mall to see how far I have to go!"

And Eckardt Tolle, enligtenment is something that you can't strive for, as it will never happen in the future, it can only happen in the now.

I see spirituality as that... Oh I wanna get closer to G!d...or I wanna be more spiritual... Well you can't be either...you have arrived, you must just open your eyes.
 
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