Sufism - The Truth About the "truth"

[dailogue is the best]

Actually, he did refuse, eventually. In the beginning he just warned him that he would not be able to follow him. Which was proven true, and they parted company. Consider their interaction, and compare it with the sufi "spiritual masters".

Khidr ra was given the unseen knowledge, this knowledge that many people may deny it to be bestowed on some people. The story of khidr ra simply shows that God can open the world of the unseen to some good sages.

Moses pbuh said in a very plain/clearcut way that he wanted to get knowledge from that good servant of God. He asked for more knowledge and guidance from the good servant. How can a prophet assure that guidance can be taken from a man, and you deny it?!


Khidr ra didnt refuse to teach Moses pbuh, but he warned him that he couldnt easily grasp what he would see. Training normally needs patience be it physical or spiritual. As the muscles cant easily get used to the new hard activities, the soul/mind cant easily grasp the new surprising teachings. Teaching requires patience. Dont forget the saying of the prophet Muhammad pbuh:“We wish that Moses could have remained patient by virtue of which Allah might have told us more about their story.” (Sufyan, the sub-narrator, said that the Prophet (PBUH) said: “May Allah bestow His Mercy on Moses! If he had remained patient, we would have been told further about their case.”)

This prophetic hadith is another proof that guidance can be taken from man.

Actually, what he did was state a plain and simple fact upon first meeting with Moses (pbuh): no one can have patience (i.e. understand and accept) that of which they have no knowledge. That was the real lesson.

You are mistaken. If it was so, the prophet Muhammad pbuh wouldnt have said the above saying.

Where does the Quran recommend it?

The Quran recommends it in the following verse: [13:7] Those who disbelieved say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord (we will then believe)." You are simply a warner - every community receives a guiding teacher.

Every community has a guiding teacher. If we take it in the special meaning: the prophets and the messangers are meant. Yet, thus this mean that after prophets there would be no guiding teachers?!! No, there would be of course. Don’t forget the saying of th prophet Muhammad pbuh: " The Ulama are the inheritors of the prophets".

Look deeply,c0de, at what the prophet Muhammad pbuh said when the above verse was revealed into him:

Many sources including some Sunni ones acknowledge that when this verse was revealed

Mohammad said "I'm the warner and you, O'Ali, are the guide and through you will be guided those who are to be guided."

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_persons_related_to_Qur'anic_verses

So, here the prophet Muhammad pbuh clearly directs Ali ra as aguide. Would you object this, too?

Look at the prophet pbuh saying: through you will be guided those who are to be guided."… The prophet Muhammad pbuh said to Ali ra that he was going to guide those who were to be guided, which means that Ali ra had to take the action of guiding others to God's path, but only those who are guided by God that would be truly guided.

The prophet Muhammad pbuh said to Ali ra: 1) Ali, you are the guide. 2) Everything is of God's will. Guidance cant completely take place unless God wills.

God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh said of taking the causes. Ali ra and anyone who guides to the true path is a cause, and the guidance as a whole is up to the creator of these causes.

Concerning your argument that God only who truly guides is something that goes without saying, c0de. But I think you misunderstand the difference between Allah as a guide, and a person as a guide. When we say that Allah is a guide, it means that He controls hearts: He can open your heart to guidance or close it. But when we say that a person is a guide, it mean that he shows you the true path. That 's what is meant by a person as a guide.


Hence, your refusal to spiritual masters as guides is baseless regarding both the Quran and the sunnah

That is not exactly what a spiritual sufi master does. He claims to be able to guide another to "purification", when he himself has no proof that he is purified.

Yes, c0de, they can by God's will. God has bestowed on them the ability to help them to do so. As for the proof of their purification, there are many signs which proofs this. Those spiritual masters are God' allies because they live for Allah and by him. Their self has no chance in their life. God says about them:

"Indeed there is no fear upon the awliya of Allah, nor shall they grieve; those who believe and used to fear Allah much. For them are glad tidings in this life and the Hereafter…"[Soorah Yunus (10): 62]
Awliya Allah/ Allah's friends are given many signs as they become standing by Allah, and not by themselves as the following hadith dictates:
Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (sallalahu alaihe wa-sallam) said:
"Allah, the Exalted said: "Whoever takes a Wali (loyal slave) of Mine as an enemy, I will wage war on him; and My slave will not perform any act with which he draws closer to Me, more beloved to Me then when he fulfills what I have ordained on him; and My salve will keep drawing closer to Me by performing the Nawafil (voluntary acts of worship) until I love him, and when I love him, I will be his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hands with which he strikes, and his legs with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him; and if he seeks refuge with Me, I will grant him refuge." [Saheeh Bukhari]​

Abû Hurayra:] The Prophet - Allah bless and greet him - said: "Truly there are servants, among the servants of Allâh, that are not Prophets but whom the Prophets and martyrs yearn to be like." Someone asked: "Who are they so that we may love them?" He said: "They are a folk who loved one another with the light of Allâh, without kinship nor affiliation. Their faces are light on pulpits of light. They shall not fear when all people fear, nor shall they grieve when all people grieve." Then he recited: “The Friends of Allâh! Truly no fear shall there be for them, nor shall they grieve” (10:62).​

Also, he said about them: Those people who - when they are seen - Allah is remembered ​

Nope. It teaches us that even if we meet those gifted ones, we will not be able to learn anything from them, as God has taught them from Himself. They know what we do not, because they are chosen for that knowledge, and we are not. You can not "earn" God's gifts, not even if you are a Prophet.

Wisdom is the lost property of the believer; wherever he finds it he has the right to take it – Hadith​

The relation between the spiritual master and the novice is not to get the same knowledge, but rather to help him to get to Allah.​

Exactly... they have nothing to teach what the student can (and should) learn by himself.

“Then ask those who possess the Message (Ahl adh-Dhikr) if you do not know.” (Quran, 21:7 and 16:43)


[/quote] Actually, yes, you can. Many of the smartest prodigies in history were not schooled by professors (as they were smarter then them even when they were kids). [/quote]

These are exceptions, brother, and we don’t take the exception as a rule.

Also, by the way, you are forgetting that the Prophet was never taught by anyone either.

I am not forgetting him, brother. All the prophets and the messangers were chosen by God to be taught directly by him. If you read about the spiritual masters, you will find them following the path of the prophet Muhammad pbuh by following him in all his actions. He is their way towards God, and by striving for God's cause and his beloved prophet pbuh, God bestowed on them certain knowledge to make them closer and closer as He said:

"God Almighty said "I am as My servant expects Me to be. I am with him if he remembers Me. If he remembers Me to himself, I would remember him to Myself. And if he remembers Me in a gathering, I would remember him in a gathering, which is even better. And if My servant draws near to Me by a hand's span, I would draw near to him by an arm's length and if he draws near to Me by an arm's length, I would draw near to him by a fathom's length. And if My servant comes to me walking, I would go to him speeding." (narrated by Bukhari)​

Like I told you before sis, your taste in music sux (lol)

​

That is my opinion about your taste, too (lol)..​

 

[c0de]

You are mistaken. If it was so, the prophet Muhammad pbuh wouldnt have said the above saying.

Well, first of all, we do not know for sure whether the Prophet actually said what you are alleging he said (some of the hadiths which you are quoting are not even in Bukhari, so I will ignore those completely). But this still does not prove your case, and I will tell you (again) why:

The reason is that unlike Khidr (ra) and the Prophet (pbuh), whose knowledge of the unseen was confirmed by Allah himself in the Quran, the "spiritual masters" of today claim to be close to God without any confirmation.

These are exceptions, brother, and we don’t take the exception as a rule.

You so completely contradict your entire point sister.

First you say you want to follow the example of the exceptional people. And when I give you their example, you say that we shouldn't take the "exceptions as a rule" ???? Tell me, are you afraid to put your trust in God? Do you think God is incapable of guiding you without the help of any "spiritual sufi master"??

Remember sister, many people think they are looking for God..
when in reality, they are really looking for recognition from other humans..
to satisfy their own insecurities. The religious institutions are full of people like this.
Is it any wonder that prophets throughout history always encountered the strongest
opposition from religious institutions? You think the case is any different today?

Look deeply,c0de, at what the prophet Muhammad pbuh said when the above verse was revealed into him:
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_persons_related_to_Qur'anic_verses

So, here the prophet Muhammad pbuh clearly directs Ali ra as aguide. Would you object this, too?

No where is Ali (ra) named as a "guide" in the Quran.

 

[wil]

Namaste Code,

I've got to ask you. Is there an alterior motive. I mean didn't Muhamed (pbuh) that there would be 72 different sects. Does Sufism consider itself a different sect or a seperate religion? And is your problem with them that there are Muslims that may be attracted to Sufism? I mean is this a territorial squabble like Catholics and Protestants, or more like the Christian and Mormon style issue?

 

[c0de]

Hey Wil,

Well, Sufism has adherents across many different Muslim sects. However, in the beginning it was heavily influenced by other eastern philosophies, (like Hindu yoga meditative practices etc.) Much of the issues I have with sufism seem to me to have their roots in non-Islamic ideologies (such as this "spiritual master" concept, which I find totally un-Islamic). It is just another method of institutionalization, imo.

All of this is linked to my original "motive" for this thread, which was to expose the concept of "fanaa" (self annihilation) in sufism, and the inherent flaws, contradictions and non-Islamic influences within the sufi version of this idea.

 

[wil]

I'm a bit slow I suppose, it took me a while to grasp that.

We get the same arguements in Christianity when it comes between the more Orthodox and the more New Thought churches...ie you're not Christians. But then we say the same about the ultra radical, I guess it goes with the territory.

I also hear similar things between Hindus and Buddhists, had a Buddhist monk and a Hindu Priest in the car, the Priest darn near berating the Bhuddist.

But bottom line, why get yourself so wrapped up? I guess it is personal on your side, but why?

Full disclosure it is personal on my side as well. While I am a Christian, an Interfaith Christian, that is supposed to support all beliefs, and I do...I have a kinship of sorts with a number of Sufis. It seems the Muslims I know are more like the Catholics I know, "We hold the truth and you are wrong" Now again, I respect your religion, but that concept just doesn't bode well with me. I can accept you believe it, but can you accept I don't?

 

[c0de]

But bottom line, why get yourself so wrapped up? I guess it is personal on your side, but why?

It might seem like I am all "wrapped up" in this, but im not really. I actually got bored of this thread a couple of posts ago. Like, right now, I am actually watching (well, technically I am listening) to the 4th episode of "Burn Notice" on the other tab. Gotta say, this show is surprisingly good!

 

[wil]

Bored with the thread you started to lambast a religion on an interfaith site, so you switched to watching sitcoms?

So this was just a drive by?

ps my kids like that show.

 

[c0de]

Bored with the thread you started to lambast a religion on an interfaith site, so you switched to watching sitcoms?

Just switch the word "religion" for any of the following and we're all set:

-Institution
-Ideology
-Philosophy
-Methodology

So this was just a drive by?

A drive by argument? No dude, I'm not British. (zzzZING!!)

[youtube]pzOBlPKZjxE[/youtube]


My boredom is due to the sidetracking of the thread.
It is no longer focused on the existential issue that
was discussed in the first few posts, unfortunately.

ps my kids like that show.

'tis great!

 

[wil]

A drive by argument? No dude, I'm not British. (zzzZING!!)

My boredom is due to the sidetracking of the thread.
It is no longer focused on the existential issue that
was discussed in the first few posts, unfortunately.

Shi ite, you can't get me, I'm American, we duck.

(double intendre contains no insult...quite interesting though)

 

[dailogue is the best]

Well, first of all, we do not know for sure whether the Prophet actually said what you are alleging he said (some of the hadiths which you are quoting are not even in Bukhari, so I will ignore those completely). But this still does not prove your case, and I will tell you (again) why:

The reason is that unlike Khidr (ra) and the Prophet (pbuh), whose knowledge of the unseen was confirmed by Allah himself in the Quran, the "spiritual masters" of today claim to be close to God without any confirmation.

Well, let's let the Hadith aside if you dont believe in it, though many ulamah do.

Through the Quran, we are given stories not in the historical sense only, but to get the wisdom and the lesson from. We all know that many stories that happened with some prophets are happening now like the people of Lut pbuh, and the story of Joseph pbuh.

As long as there was a man on whom God bestowed some of His divine knowledge and worked as a spiritual guide to Moses pbuh, there will be of course others servants of God on whom He will bestow His divine knowledge and who will work as spiritual guide to other people.

You so completely contradict your entire point sister.

First you say you want to follow the example of the exceptional people. And when I give you their example, you say that we shouldn't take the "exceptions as a rule" ????

I am not contradicting myself if you truly see, c0de. While you asserted that people could teach themselves by themselves, I replied that those were exceptions. Those were people of a very strong determination, and not all people are alike. So, we cant take them as a rule.

Considering our subject, the exceptional people for me are those who are enodowed with the divine knowledge. They are people of a very strong determination through which they managed to purify themselves to get to Allah, and reach the connection. Not all people can do that by themselves as not all people can have a shape body without depending on a trainer. Hence, to ask for the help of a spiritual master to shape one's soul is something reasonable and logic.

Tell me, are you afraid to put your trust in God? Do you think God is incapable of guiding you without the help of any "spiritual sufi master"??

You are the one who should tell me: Without prophets pbut how would you know God? Were not prophets pbuh spiritual masters/guide? Why didnt God guide us directly to Him?

I am fully sure that God is capable of anything, and everything is up to His divine command "be" and it be. Yet, I know that God uses certain people to transmit knowledge to us, and respond to our prayers. Imagine you were passing through a tough propblem, and you prayed for God to help you. Suddenly, you meet a person that showed you what to do. Cant you see, c0de, that this person worked as a guide towards the right choice, though in reality it is God who guided you. Hence, a person as a guide be it in any part of life is just a person used by God to guide us.

Yes, God can guide me without the help of any spiritual master. That goes without saying. But what if I were ill, shall I not take medicine, saying that God will recover me by Himself?!! Yes, God can do that without me taking any medecines. But, this is not what Islam teaches. Islam teaches that if you are ill,seek medecine. Islam asks us to take of the causes that God Himself made for us. If I take the medecinea and I recover, it is God who recovers me, not the medicine.

Sufism is concerned with heart dieseas like envy, arrogance, lust, selfishness, ect...and since these illnesses reside in one's heart, he/she cant connect God as God says in a hadith: " Oh, my servants, you purify your outer appearance for people, and you dont purify your hearts, the place where I look, for me"

If those spirital masters are offering me spiritual medicines to my heart, why should I leave it, and not purify my heart for God?!

Sufi spiritual masters like Imam AlGhazali/ alKochayri/alBassri/Rabiaa Adawiya helped me to purify my heart, and feel the more of God's presence, the more I purify my heart. They taught me the endless mentioning of God, the continous presence with Him, the complete devotion for Him, praising Him and loving Him. They taught me to Love God's most beloved Muhammed pbuh, how to give him his due worth, praise him, love him and follow his noble sunnah and action. How can all thses be close to blasphemy?!!

Is it any wonder that prophets throughout history always encountered the strongest opposition from religious institutions? You think the case is any different today?

While you insist on looking at Sufism as a religious institution, I see sufism as a branch of knowledge/science. I see it as the spirit of Islam.

Would you tell me how sufism is a religious institution, and which harm it may cause to the prophets pbut message?

 

[c0de]

Sufi spiritual masters like Imam AlGhazali/ alKochayri/alBassri/Rabiaa Adawiya helped me to purify my heart, and feel the more of God's presence, the more I purify my heart. They taught me the endless mentioning of God, the continous presence with Him, the complete devotion for Him, praising Him and loving Him. They taught me to Love God's most beloved Muhammed pbuh, how to give him his due worth, praise him, love him and follow his noble sunnah and action. How can all thses be close to blasphemy?!!

Do you want to know where the blasphemy is?
Read what you just wrote again sister...
Can you not sense your own pride in these words?

How can you possibly ascribe any "purity" to your heart?
Is this what your sufi practices have guided you towards?
Pride in how much you think you are "devoted" to God?
How "close" you think you are to God?

It is well known sister that real progress on the path happens NOT
when one feels euphoria in their spiritual accomplishments, but the opposite.

When one realizes how sick, depraved and perverted
they actually are... and then when they finally realize
that they are not even worthy enough to call themselves "evil"...
for they are nothing at all. Man, is a complete zero, nothing more
nothing less.

While you insist on looking at Sufism as a religious institution, I see sufism as a branch of knowledge/science. I see it as the spirit of Islam.

Would you tell me how sufism is a religious institution, and which harm it may cause to the prophets pbut message?

The "spirit of Islam" ??? Be warned sister, and never forget this one
HISTORICAL fact: Sufism was influenced by Hindu philosophies.
It is an innovation that came after the Prophet and the sahaba.

To call it the "spirit of Islam" is therefore nonsensical.
So be careful about following that which God has sent down no authority.

Imagine you were passing through a tough propblem, and you prayed for God to help you. Suddenly, you meet a person that showed you what to do. Cant you see, c0de, that this person worked as a guide towards the right choice, though in reality it is God who guided you. Hence, a person as a guide be it in any part of life is just a person used by God to guide us.

Yes, God can guide me without the help of any spiritual master. That goes without saying. But what if I were ill, shall I not take medicine, saying that God will recover me by Himself?!!

False analogy. You have to define your "tough problems" in context:

For example: If your car broke down in the middle of the highway, that is
different because you are not "trusting" someone with your soul, are you?
You have to know the difference between such things.
No one can help you get closer to God, but God.

Considering our subject, the exceptional people for me are those who are enodowed with the divine knowledge. They are people of a very strong determination through which they managed to purify themselves to get to Allah, and reach the connection. Not all people can do that by themselves as not all people can have a shape body without depending on a trainer. Hence, to ask for the help of a spiritual master to shape one's soul is something reasonable and logic.

You are still ignoring my main objection to your argument.
How do you know which person is truly "endowed with
divine knowledge"?

The truth is: that you DONT. Therefore, for you to take ordinary people
as "spiritual guides" for whom God has sent down no authority, is the
real problem.

As long as there was a man on whom God bestowed some of His divine knowledge and worked as a spiritual guide to Moses pbuh, there will be of course others servants of God on whom He will bestow His divine knowledge and who will work as spiritual guide to other people.

My dear sister, you can NOT make the claim that Khidr (ra) was
a "spiritual guide" to Moses (pbuh) without using those ahadith.
Your argument is still incomplete.

I am not contradicting myself if you truly see, c0de. While you asserted that people could teach themselves by themselves, I replied that those were exceptions.Those were people of a very strong determination, and not all people are alike. So, we cant take them as a rule.

Your contradiction lies in this: The mission you have chosen in your
life is exceptional. Namely you want to get closer to God.
But in order to achieve that goal, you disregard the example of
exceptional people (even the Prophet!). Instead you trust these so
called "spiritual guides".For whom God has sent down no authority.
You are so focused on following the little things in the Sunnah that
you have ignored the main message: rely on no one other then God!
Did the Prophet have any "spiritual guides" other then God? No!
Isn't that part of the Sunnah?

You are the one who should tell me: Without prophets pbut how would you know God? Were not prophets pbuh spiritual masters/guide? Why didnt God guide us directly to Him?

And how did God guide us through the Prophet? By giving the Prophet
the Quran. You think any "spiritual guide" can give you anything better?
How can you put your trust in anyone other than God to guide you?

Yet, I know that God uses certain people to transmit knowledge to us, and respond to our prayers.

And what makes you so sure the people who you think are "guides" are
not sent to test your faith? They could very well be working for satan.
Can you see into their hearts? So how can you trust anyone other than
God? God also uses evil people to lead us astray you know. And do not
think that evil people are always evil looking... Sometimes, they can
appear to be "pure". These are the ones which are the most dangerous.

 

[c0de]

p.s.

I would also like to admit that the only reason I recognized pride in your statements, is because my own heart is full of arrogance. I am far from considering myself a "zero" because of my own pride and impurity.

And if you think doing dikhr or offering nafl prayers is going to earn you "purity", than you are very mistaken. No one is capable of "earning" purity. God gives such gifts willingly to those he chooses. This itself contradicts the entire philosophy of Sufism.

And one more thing: the whole point of Islam is to remove all intermediaries between God and man. This idea is the true "spirit of Islam". Therefore, the whole concept of "spiritual guides" in sufism goes against this spirit by introducing intermediaries.

 

[bob x]

And one more thing: the whole point of Islam is to remove all intermediaries between God and man.

The very concept of a "prophet" goes directly against that.

 

[c0de]

The very concept of a "prophet" goes directly against that.

The function of a prophet is that of an agent, not intermediary.
The difference is that the job of an "intermediary" is to "mediate".
But that implies a relationship of influence between the mediator, and
those he is mediating between. An "agent" on the other hand, has no
influence in the situation. He is not a "keeper" over men.
Nor does he have any power of intercession. (Many Muslims do not
even understand this).

A prophet is an agent because his job is only to deliver a message.
This is one-way communication. The prophet is not carrying messages
back and forth between men and God. In that sense, technically, a
Prophet is not even a "messenger", but more of a delivery man.

He has zero influence over God's decisions. This is why Muslims don't pray to
the Prophet, nor do we invoke him for confession. We try to get in touch
with God directly... (or at least that is what we are suppose to be doing).

Unfortunately, the tendencies within man are always to look for a priest,
or a "spiritual guide" or whatever... relying directly on an unseen God
is too abstract... People, are more comfortable with a human being
telling them what to do, what to think, how to worship etc....

Monotheism's mission is to liberate man from other men....
but man prefers slavery to other men, rather then God Himself.

 

[Snoopy]

As for the mind/body problem, I agree that dualism is the problem, however those who have resolved the issue in favor of the body (i.e. matter) have not solved the problem at all. Consciousness can not be explained away by a simple materialistic explanation, because they still dont know what it is, how it works etc. Nor has our understanding of matter been resting on "solid" ground, ever since the advent of Quantum Physics. It seems that matter, seems to be out of the grasp of simple materialistic explanations after all (ironic, isn't it?)

I agree the issue is not “resolved” with a simple materialistic explanation. Materialism as such is, to me, an appropriate and useful perspective but is not the whole picture. It is but one perspective. I do not take it to be the only one though; if I did then that of course would make me an atheist – which I am not. And yes matter is not just matter! “Form is emptiness, emptiness is form…” (the famous bit of The Heart Sutra).

As for the assertions and inferences in my post, that verse in the Quran, (I think) does infer that matter and consciousness (everything besides God Himself) is an illusion, in a sense. To clarify: I agree with the existentialists when they say that "existence precedes essence". However, unlike the existentialist, I do not believe that anything or anyone actually exists other than God. Therefore, the point I am making is that only God has a true essence, and the "essence" of "us" is an illusion, that "we" think "we" possess.

OK thanks, I think I understand what you’re saying.

You also questioned the purpose of guidance (in the case we are all just "nothings"). But I already pre-empted your questions when I said that this point of view (in order to be accepted and understood) requires a firm understanding of the purpose of life beforehand. And this is given to God through an understanding of revelation. I also said that this knowledge is given, not earned. It can not be rationalized. But I will say that (I think) the secret lies in understanding the dichotomy between the finite versus the infinite.

OK, I was just taking it on face value, but now you’ve explained a bit I’m understanding more.

As for Rumi, he once said that anyone who is under the impression that he is more a universal figure should dispel such thoughts, as he is first and foremost a Muslim.

OK, ta.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

I cant dare to say I am sufi, simply because to get this degree it means that you have manged to get rid of the self, and I am still in a daily struggle with it

Well don't wear your(non)self out

s.

 

[Snoopy]

My boredom is due to the sidetracking of the thread.
It is no longer focused on the existential issue that
was discussed in the first few posts, unfortunately.

Sorry, I was interested in the OP but when I got back to the forum (what did the Romans ever do for us?) I've missed a lot and (not being a Muslim) I'm thinking it's in deeper water than I can float around in. I've found it interesting to read though, so thanks.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

Unfortunately, the tendencies within man are always to look for a priest,
or a "spiritual guide" or whatever... relying directly on an unseen God
is too abstract... People, are more comfortable with a human being
telling them what to do, what to think, how to worship etc....

OK so you are against "spiritual guides" or whatever. Aren't imams such guides or advisors of some sort? Are you against them? See them as part of the institutionalisation, which you are also against? (see, I know little of you or Islam. )

s.

 

[c0de]

OK so you are against "spiritual guides" or whatever. Aren't imams such guides or advisors of some sort? Are you against them? See them as part of the institutionalisation, which you are also against?

(Hmm)

Maybe, I am not against anything. . .
but, I am against everything. . .

My revolutionary days are behind me.
I could care less about such... politics

OK thanks, I think I understand what you’re saying.

The simplest I can put it is this:-

If "existence precedes essence" then that means before we existed we did not have an essence. Whether or not we believe we were "created" by a God or not, we have to admit that our essence was always dependent on something else. If one is an atheist then he probably believes that his (finite) essence is dependent on mechanistic laws of mathematics, which spawned the universe. In these terms, it is not really an absolute/infinite reality. But the fact is that even if you believe in God, you can not believe that your essence is an absolute reality, because you can not claim that your existence came about independently.

On the other hand, if God does exist, according to His word in the Quran/Bible, than God's essence/existence is different from us because He was not "created". Therefore, His existence/essence is not dependent, on anything else. Therefore, only God can be said to truly "exist" in any absolute sense.

It is thus that I conclude "we don't actually exist." Because "our" reality is not, and never was, absolute/independent.


p.s.

Thanks Snoop, for the opportunity to formalize these ideas, cuz up till now they were just notions floating around in my head.

 

[Snoopy]

they were just notions floating around in my head.

we've probably got a lot in common then!

s.