Sufism - The Truth About the "truth"

[c0de]

.

@ Netti

This line of argument seems to reflect a misunderstanding of what the author actually wrote.

No it doesnt. Observe:

The phrase "own formulation of human rights" appears in the first sentence of the conclusion, which reads:

"We can see that Islam provides a multi-layered religious, cultural and political complex with its own formulation of human rights and norms of international conduct. "
​

The author is talking about Islam in general, not Sufism in particular.

Your critique of my critique might have been valid,
if the next sentence of that conclusion was not the following:

"Certain elements within Islam, especially Sufism, provide a basis for a humanitarian, individualistic approach to life which is at once resilient and open to a range of cultural synergies."

I said the authors "single out" Sufism, and that
is exactly what is happening here. Read on:

The authors goes on to suggest that Sufism may be more flexible, as attested by indications that it has been influenced by the Greeks and foreign ideologies and philosophies. So I don't see the contradiction you see at all.

That is the whole point. Sufism is supposed to be "especially humanitarian"??? And why? Because it shares their individualistic approach to "human rights"??? You seem to have missed my comment at the end:

The greatest argument I can present against this line of thinking is from one of Islam's greatest critics, William Muir, who declared/admitted that the best and only true "republic" that ever existed on the face of the earth was the Islamic state under the Prophet himself, in Medinah (before sufism, and western liberalism, which have never produced anything close to such a utopia on earth).

So why is Sufism being called out as "especially humanitarian"? You say that the authors do not "rule out others" but come on dude... There is a very orientalist motive behind their selection of Sufism for such honors, because it fits in with their own conception of what is "especially" good i.e. individualism.

 

[Netti-Netti]

So why is Sufism being called out as "especially humanitarian"? You say that the authors do not "rule out others" but come on dude...

Dude, is doesn't say that Sufis are more humanitarian, individualistic than other Muslims. The statement in question reads: "Certain elements within Islam, especially Sufism, provide a basis for a humanitarian, individualistic approach to life which is at once resilient and open to a range of cultural synergies." It says that certain elements "provide a basis for a humanitarian, individualistic approach." That's different from saying Sufis have a virtual monopoly on the approach.

You're right that Sufis seems to have been favorably singled out. But it does say "especially." That doesn't rule out that other expressions of Islam can reflect a humanitarian, individualistic approach as well.

 

[c0de]

.

double post, sorry

 

[c0de]

@ Netti

But dude, my objection was regarding the paradigm itself. Why did they single out Sufism? It is the historical materialism, individualism and the "orientalist" trends I was objecting to.

 

[Netti-Netti]

@ Netti

But dude, my objection was regarding the paradigm itself. Why did they single out Sufism? It is the historical materialism, individualism and the "orientalist" trends I was objecting to.

I know. Hence my next question for you: who besides this one author do you consider examples of the paradigm?

 

[dailogue is the best]

.
@ DITB
To this you ask the question: "to choose what? can you explain" ??? (lol) Seriously???

Yes, brother, I am seriously talking. I forgot to point out that the English translation sometimes arises such misunderstanding. The English translation u used failed to transmit the accurate meaning. Look at this translation:
[28:68] Your Lord is the One who creates whatever He wills, and chooses; no one else does any choosing.
source: The Authorized English Translation of the Quran, Sura - 28 History (Al-Qasas), translated from the original by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D.-Quran, Koran, Qur'an, Quranic topics, Index, Browser, several translations, discussions, debates, Authorized Engl

This translation is the closest to the Arabic meaning, and as you see here "chooses" is without an object. And my interpretation was based on that.

Please don't expect me to simply ignore these objections and chase you while you go running in circles

:

#1: You have failed to show how you can verify the spiritual rank of
your Sufi masters. (Netti at least, has already admitted this)

I am sorry if I let this ignored. Actually, if you need a proof that God consider those people as His friends, I ve no way to do that. Only God knows that. For me, their writings, knowledge, devouted life, biography give me the impression of that, and I follow my heart's judgment for that. But for some, all these may not give that impression/feelings. (By the way, if you have doubt about that, you can pray Stikhara prayer, and look what God tells you about Sufism/sufis. Sufis used to do that about anything confusing)

Yet, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't take from a man's knowledge unless God Himself verifies his spiritual rank. Remember the verses I gave you about that person whom God referred to just as "the man who believed: [40:38] The man who believed said further: "O my people! Follow me: I will lead you to the Path of Right. This man is just referred to as a believer, and he took the responsibility of leading people to God's path, and God protected him for what he did.

Thus, your objection to Sufis as spiritual guides is refuted by the Quran itself.

#2: You keep trying to escape the fact that if God is the cause of everything, then you have no other causes left for anything.

If you say that God is the cause of everything, and you stop then you are doing injustice to God. Look at these verses:
[39: 57] "Or (lest) it should say: 'If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'-

[43:20]("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of (Allah) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

Do you need, brother, other stronger proofs than these verses that God is not the one who chooses for his creatures their decisions?!!

That is not why I referred you to that thread. You asked me what the use of suffering/hell is in such a system where there is no free will, and that thread answers this objection.

Now, I think you have changed your view concerning the free will or at least you start to do so , taking into consideration the verses above.

In fact I can even refer you to the words of Rumi, your own hero,

By the way, Rumi has never been my hero,c0de, and stop mocking please.

Be careful with the sword you are wielding sister, for is has a very sharp double edge and can be used against you. I can very easily say that since I am proud, I recognize pride in others. Since I know what false humility is, I can recognize it in others.

Don't forget that the argument in essence is yours. Your response can be used against you, too, because you then give justification of G2G of what he said. G2G then, according to your response, can hold that because of his non-spirituality that he felt the non-spirituality of Islam. Is there non-spirituality in Islam?

Hence, the argument of "it takes spirituality to recognize spirituality" doesn’t work all the time. In the case of G2G, he met some people who give him a false/incomplete picture about Islam. He hasn’t yet come to contact Islam fully. The same in your case,c0de. There is a lack of knowledge, and prejudices..

And lastly, I would like to ask you to understand the fact that since my argument aims to

DESTROY the concept of "free will" it also destroys the concept of individualism. Therefore, things like "pride" have no place in my system, while the sufi system is basically built around it.

Firstly, I think you should rethink about destroying the concept of free will after the Quranic verse I gave.

Secondly, There is no such thing as "pride" in the sufis' life simply bc they choose (out of deep realization of God) to submit their will to God. To say such thing simply displays your ignorance about them.



Between free will and predistination, here is the answer:

 

[c0de]

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Netti + DITB​

@ Netti

Off the top of my head: Bernard Lewis.







@ DITB


Sister, it is clear that you have not understood my argument.
Instead you are now accusing me of changing it... ??

English translation u used failed to transmit the accurate meaning. Look at this translation:[28:68] Your Lord is the One who creates whatever He wills, and chooses; no one else does any choosing.

This translation is even more clear and further proves my point.
Thank you.

Actually, if you need a proof that God consider those people as His friends, I ve no way to do that.

Thank you for finally admitting this.

Secondly, There is no such thing as "pride" in the sufis' life simply bc they choose (out of deep realization of God) to submit their will to God.

Thank you for contradicting yourself (again). There is no way for you to verify their claims of nearness to God (i.e. friendship) which comes through a dissolution of personal pride.

"the man who believed:"

Yet, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't take from a man's knowledge unless God Himself verifies his spiritual rank.

Thus, your objection to Sufis as spiritual guides is refuted by the Quran itself.

Tell me sis, was that believer who is talked about in the Quran,
a graduate of the sufi system? What sufi master did he study under?
How many nawaffil prayers did he do to reach that spiritual rank?
How much dikhr?

This is Proof that you never understood my actual argument.

My argument was always against causes of institutionalization of Islam.
Do you know what "institutionalization" is? Why do I consider Sufis a
cause of institutionalization? Tell me. (Let me test your comprehension of
the view you are trying so hard to reject)

[39: 57] "Or (lest) it should say: 'If only Allah had guided me, I should certainly have been among the righteous!'-

Take a look at the entire passage and its context will become clearer.
For example, the guilty are also made to say this:

039.056
"Lest the soul should (then) say: 'Ah! Woe is me!- In that
I neglected (my duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'- ​

Is this statement not true? Yes (obviously). The fact is that all of these
statements (there are a total of 3 in that passage) will be said by
the same, or by different groups of the guilty on the day of judgment.
And at that moment, the truth will already have become
clear to the guilty! This is why God does not negate any of these
statements.Instead God prefaces them with this: (same passage)

039.054
"Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will),
before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped.​

In order to understand why this passage exists in the Quran you
have to first understand what purpose the Quran serves i.e. the
context of the Quran itself. it is a meant as a guide for those who are already saved.
The Muslims are being told what the guilty would say and
how to respond to them. This is why the Prophet (and the Muslims) are told this:

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye
that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor
will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me
my religion. ​

S. 109:1-6 ​

For example, if you do dawwa and the person you spread the message to
accepts Islam, does that mean it was because of your dawa? Of course not!
That person would have been guided with or without your actions. It was God
who guided that person, not you.

Muslims are told over and over again that it is not in our power to guide.
God guides those He wills through His guidance, which He can place
anywhere He wants. I am not saying this guidance can not be placed
in people. What I am challenging is the sufi system itself which has turned
this concept into an institution.

[43:20]("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of (Allah) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

Another verse the sufis are happy to take out of context. In this verse the story of Abraham (pbuh) is being told. Later on he says: 043.027 "(I worship) only Him Who made me, and He will certainly guide me."

Don't forget that the argument in essence is yours.

And you have clearly not been able to properly apply it. When I used it, it worked.
When you tried to use it, it didnt (I ended up using it against you)
Point being: dont try to fight with weapons you cant lift.

Rumi has never been my hero

Maybe he should be. And by the way, that was a cute cartoon, but meaningless.

 

[dailogue is the best]

@ DITB

Sister, it is clear that you have not understood my argument.Instead you are now accusing me of changing it... ??

I didn’t accuse you of anything, brother. I just said that the translation is not accurate.​

This translation is even more clear and further proves my point.

Well, let's discuss it. "No else does any choosing" means that no one chooses but Allah. And this verse is for you a proof that man has no power to choose/ free will.

Based on my free will argument, I can give the above verse 2 meanings:

1- Yes, it is God who does choosing. Yet, on what basis His choice is made? Is it arbitrary. The Quran teaches us it isn’t. God chooses a system of causality to everything, and that what He referred to by His choice. For example look at these verses:
[7:96] If the people of the towns had but believed and feared Allah, We should indeed have opened out to them (All kinds of) blessings from heaven and earth; but they rejected (the truth), and We brought them to book for their misdeeds.​

[89:16] But when He trieth him, restricting his subsistence for him, then saith he (in despair), "My Lord hath humiliated me!"
[89:17] Nay, nay! but ye honour not the orphans!​

2- Yes, it is God who does choosing. And He chooses that I should choose. Look at this verse:
[74:37] To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-​

What can you say about these verses, c0de, based on your predestination argument?!​

Free will doesn’t eliminate God's will. On the contrary, It is the ruling one since it already decided all the possibilities/choices. Hence, the servant is only in front of number of choices. He chooses, but he will be always within God's will/plan/control.​

Verses who talk about God's choice/will have a logic interpretation within free will argument. What about you, c0de? What do you say about the above verses? How can you interpret them, have a space for them in ur argument?​

Thank you for finally admitting this.

There is no need to thank me for this. ​

Thank you for contradicting yourself (again). There is no way for you to verify their claims of nearness to God (i.e. friendship) which comes through a dissolution of personal pride.

I didn’t understand​

Tell me sis, was that believer who is talked about in the Quran,

​

a graduate of the sufi system? What sufi master did he study under?

How many nawaffil prayers did he do to reach that spiritual rank?

How much dikhr?​

First, let us be clear. At the beginning you were against the idea that a person can guide. I gave Quranic verses which proofs that a person can guide. This was in support of the sheikh/spiritual master. So, to have a person to teach u, and guide to God's path isn’t refuted by the Quran. That person in those verses can be considered as playing the role of sufi master.. Concerning nawafil/dhikr, I think we talked about this, supported with the Quran and ahadith​

My argument was always against causes of institutionalization of Islam

.

​

Do you know what "institutionalization" is? Why do I consider Sufis a

cause of institutionalization? Tell me. (Let me test your comprehension of

the view you are trying so hard to reject)​

I told you before that I ma talking/defending Sufism as science, branch of Islamic knowledge rather than an institution. But, the problem with you is that you generalize: you didn’t differentiate between institutionalized Sufism, and non-institutionalized one. You are trying to collapse Sufism completely, and not a part of what you see as "non Islamic".

By institution, I think you mean an order with hierarchal authority, and that the authority of this institution is inherited from father to son,etc. This order has its own dhikr,etc…, and adherents from all over the world.​

039.056 "Lest the soul should (then) say: 'Ah! Woe is me!- In that

​

I neglected (my duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'

Is this statement not true? Yes (obviously)..This is why God does not negate any of these statements. Instead God prefaces them with this: (same passage)039.054 "Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will),before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped.​

What is this, brother? Normally, the answer comes after, not before., and the answer was as follows : [39:59]"(The reply will be 'Nay, but there came to thee my Signs, and thou didst reject them: thou wast Haughty, and became one of those who reject faith!'"

The reply from God is very clear. As for the deluded servant saying" was but among those who mocked" means that he worked by the causes of delusion as God explained in his reply to them. As for God's saying:" bow to His Will" is very clear: it wants to say :admit/submit that God's will will always be done: u do wrong or u do right, you will see what God has promised..His will

it is a meant as a guide for those who are already saved.

​

False. It is meant as a guide to those who wants to save themselves.[81:27] Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds: [81:28] (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:​

Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. S. 109:1-6

No, brother, this just one of the important Islamic teachings: "there is no compulsion in religion"​

For example, if you do dawwa and the person you spread the message to

​

accepts Islam, does that mean it was because of your dawa? Of course not!

That person would have been guided with or without your actions. It was God

who guided that person, not you. ​

I completely agree. But in this action u eliminate free will, while it is present. In this case, we have 2 persons: the one doing dawwa, and the other one. Havent u asked urself, c0de, why those 2 people are chosen for this? Yes, brother, they are chosen by God as a result of their explotation of their free will in the service of God/right. The person who guides has submitted his will to God,and hence God uses Him for the service of His creatures. The other person may be he is a just(remember God doesn’t guide the unjust), modest person, using his free will in the service of what is right, is looking for truth, supplicating. He then deserves God's guidance.​

Muslims are told over and over again that it is not in our power to guide.

Yes, brother, but which doesn’t mean that guidance comes arbitrary/forced upon people. No, guidance has causes, and me as a person cant affect those causes as they have to do mainly with the person to be guided.​

What I am challenging is the sufi system itself which has turned

​

this concept into an institution.​

Dikhr, naawfil, purity of heart, justice, devoution, goodness, and many other characteristics mentioned in the Quran may lead to guidance. God clear in that. If one works by this causes sincerely inside a sufi order or out of it, he/she will inshAllah be guided to Him more and more..​

Another verse the sufis are happy to take out of context. In this verse the story of Abraham (pbuh) is being told. Later on he says: 043.027 "(I worship) only Him Who made me, and He will certainly guide me."

I ask God's forgiveness to do so. Please, brother, look at the verses very clear. They talk about deluded people, and the reply come to them later by God: [43: 22] Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps." The reply promotes the idea of free will. As for the saying of Abraham pbuh, it doesn’t eliminate Free will. Abraham came to God willingly, supplicating Him, asking Him for guidance and this is one of the many causes that lead to the happening of guidance.​

And you have clearly not been able to properly apply it. When I used it, it worked. When you tried to use it, it didnt (I ended up using it against you)

​

Point being: dont try to fight with weapons you cant lift.​

Yeah, you are right. I admit it.

And by the way, that was a cute cartoon, but meaningless.

Yes, at first, it seems meaningless, but it isn’t. The cartoon can be summarized in a verse that u may see in it a proof of predestination: [81:29]But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.
Lifting the rightleg first is possible bc Allah makes/wills it so: free will
Lifting the left leg at the same time is impossible bc Allah makes/wills it so: predestination
Example: you can choose your wife, but you cant choose your mother. Allah wills you to choose, and He decides to will you choose only among a set of choices that He wills for you.
I don’t know if I am clear or not. Please, brother, could you paraphrase my argument about free will to see if I have really managed in transmitting what I mean.​

 

[c0de]

.

Salaam sis

I don’t know if I am clear or not. Please, brother, could you paraphrase my argument about free will to see if I have really managed in transmitting what I mean.

You are saying: Our will is free, but limited. (This is the majority
view of everyone, Jews, Christians, Muslims today...)

But what I am saying is: "limited" free will is not "free" at all,
especially when the end result of our actions/efforts is NOT
in our control.

I completely agree. But in this action u eliminate free will, while it is present. In this case, we have 2 persons: the one doing dawwa, and the other one. Havent u asked urself, c0de, why those 2 people are chosen for this? Yes, brother, they are chosen by God as a result of their explotation of their free will in the service of God/right. The person who guides has submitted his will to God, and hence God uses Him for the service of His creatures. The other person may be he is a just(remember God doesn’t guide the unjust), modest person, using his free will in the service of what is right, is looking for truth, supplicating. He then deserves God's guidance.

But you already admitted that God's will is always the "ruling one".
Therefore, even those who do not willingly submit, are still being
ruled by God, involuntarily.

False. It is meant as a guide to those who wants to save themselves.[81:27] Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds: [81:28] (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:​

But you have no choice but to admit that our "will" is subordinate to His,
you therefore have to admit that God is the One who places the desire
for guidance inside the hearts of those who He wills to guide.
And so the process is in the end, arbitrary.

Yes, brother, but which doesn’t mean that guidance comes arbitrary/forced upon people. No, guidance has causes, and me as a person cant affect those causes as they have to do mainly with the person to be guided.

Again, since you have already admitted that the ultimate cause of everything is God.
Therefore, the cause of your cause *(trying to affect the first cause)* is also God.
So your argument for "free will" is circular. And all of these explanations which
you have given are contradicting themselves:

Free will doesn’t eliminate God's will. On the contrary, It is the ruling one since it already decided all the possibilities/choices. Hence, the servant is only in front of number of choices. He chooses, but he will be always within God's will/plan/control.​

+

The reply from God is very clear. As for the deluded servant saying" was but among those who mocked" means that he worked by the causes of delusion as God explained in his reply to them. As for God's saying:" bow to His Will" is very clear: it wants to say :admit/submit that God's will will always be done: u do wrong or u do right, you will see what God has promised..His will​

+

Example: you can choose your wife, but you cant choose your mother. Allah wills you to choose, and He decides to will you choose only among a set of choices that He wills for you.

= FAIL

All me to quote a sage, at this point:

I didn’t understand

You can NOT make the claim that the sufi masters have no pride because you can NOT prove it.

Concerning nawafil/dhikr, I think we talked about this, supported with the Quran and ahadith

The Quran gives NO guarantees that worship will raise the worshipper in spiritual rank. Consider the verse about thajjud prayer, the word "maybe" is used to signify this. Why does God say "maybe" He will raise the person in rank? Because in the end, the rank of everyone is ARBITRARILY determined by God, and is not directly caused by the worship the person does.

For example: Prophets didnt earn prophethood... They were simply chosen by God arbitrarily. But you neglect the fact that prophethood is also a spiritual rank. Therefore, the same rules apply to other spiritual ranks, which apply to prophet-hood.

Dikhr, naawfil, purity of heart, justice, devoution, goodness, and many other characteristics mentioned in the Quran may lead to guidance. God clear in that.If one works by this causes sincerely inside a sufi order or out of it, he/she will inshAllah be guided to Him more and more..

Exactly. Therefore, the sufi system is redundant anyway.

I told you before that I ma talking/defending Sufism as science, branch of Islamic knowledge rather than an institution. But, the problem with you is that you generalize: you didn’t differentiate between institutionalized Sufism, and non-institutionalized one. You are trying to collapse Sufism completely, and not a part of what you see as "non Islamic".

If you are defending Sufism as a "science" then that is going to be impossible for you. Because there is nothing scientific about it.

You might as well start defending astrology...

First, let us be clear. At the beginning you were against the idea that a person can guide. I gave Quranic verses which proofs that a person can guide. This was in support of the sheikh/spiritual master. So, to have a person to teach u, and guide to God's path isn’t refuted by the Quran. That person in those verses can be considered as playing the role of sufi master..

And I havent changed that at all. Because I believe that the choice of who receives this guidance is made by God arbitrarily. Therefore, the whole sufi system is flawed because it assumes that you can "earn" this grace through doing ritualistic forms of worship.

​

By institution, I think you mean an order with hierarchal authority, and that the authority of this institution is inherited from father to son,etc. This order has its own dhikr,etc…, and adherents from all over the world.​

Not exactly. The term "institutionalization" is a sociological term which describes a process. Basically, every prophet, in this process is a revolutionary who comes to destroy/replace the institution of the established order of religion which is defined by a priesthood. However, the process is circular (parabolic, actually) because once the Prophet destroys the system and replaces it, after his death, the followers of that prophet form a new priesthood and revert back to institutionalization.

This process happened with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The Prophets came, destroyed the old system. Then a new priesthood formed and enslaved the public once again. Today, Muslims have their own "priesthood" in the form of scholars, imams, spiritual masters etc. who misguide the people by incorrectly defining their religion. And people follow blindly, without understanding their religion themselves, instead they take what their masters/scholars say on faith. The sufi masters institutionalize Islam by claiming authority from God Himself. They say that their "masters" are closer to God then their "novices". A hierarchy develops and the ones at the top become the elite priesthood and gain power over the people. And you know that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." This institution is exactly what the prophets came to destroy.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Before replying to your last post, c0de, I want you to answer my twice ignored question:

Verses who talk about God's choice/will have a logic interpretation within free will argument. What about you, c0de? What do you say about the above verses? How can you interpret them, have a space for them in ur argument?

Look into the previous post for the verses​

 

[c0de]

Before replying to your last post, c0de, I want you to answer my twice ignored question:
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Look into the previous post for the verses​

"twice ignored" ??? Excuse me, but I already answered your
interpretation of these verses by pointing out your contradictions.

[7:96] If the people of the towns had but believed and feared Allah, We should indeed have opened out to them (All kinds of) blessings from heaven and earth; but they rejected (the truth), and We brought them to book for their misdeeds.

[89:16] But when He trieth him, restricting His subsistence for him, then saith he (in despair), "My Lord hath humiliated me!"

[89:17] Nay, nay! but ye honour not the orphans!

​

​

This is the proper context for these verses, which is provided in the Quran:

To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the
earth. All are obedient to Him.​

30:26 ​

You are only defending free-will on a superficial level.
But I already told you I am talking about the absolute.
Ultimately, you have no choice but to admit that
no one can actually disobey God.


p.s. as for this verse:

[74:37] To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-

Alternate translations of this verse avoid the word "choose":

PICKTHAL: Unto him of you who will advance or hang back.
SHAKIR: To him among you who wishes to go forward or remain behind.

(now, time for you to address my objections which point out
those contradictions in yourlast post).

 

[c0de]

sweet my first post... sorry guys carry on with ur debate

...and finally he signs up... Welcom 2 the dark side dude : )
Here, join up: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/groups/interfaith-gamers.html
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/groups/the-commonwealth-of-randomness.html

I think you and I should probably start a film critics club...
call it, The Elit3 FiLM KritiCs Inc. !! which reminds me, watch DOGVILLE!

 

[c0de]

.

LOL!

instead of random comments, maybe you should've just
introduced yourself to the folks here.

Introductions - Interfaith forums

(hint hint )