A descussion on death and atheism

immortalitylost

immortalitylost

Say Meow.
Messages
862
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
In my head. HELP! IM TRAPPED IN HERE!
It's pretty much the question behind all the answers, the thing that just bugs the crap outta us because we can never really know, really. What happens to "us," our consciousness, when we die?

Now I have some questions pertaining to this matter when it comes to atheism. I mean, it's not like there's some atheist doctrine out there, so how many different thoughts, as atheists, are there when it comes to the question?

Also, I'm familiar with the whole "we die and our conscience ceases to be," thing. Frankly that scares the bejeses out of me. I'm wondering if anyone holds that point of view, and if so, what are the reasons behind that thinking?

Is it just being realistic in your opinions? What makes that your choice of belief?

If you don't believe that our consciousness is lost after death, and are atheist, what do you believe happens?

Do some people believe in a God or gods, and still believe that consciousness stops after death?

I've been quite curious about all of this, and thought it might be a good thread starter, a good question. So, answers are appreciated! So are any thoughts, random or otherwise...:)

Prolly settin myself up with that... oh wells... :p
 
immortalitylost said:
Also, I'm familiar with the whole "we die and our conscience ceases to be," thing. Frankly that scares the bejeses out of me. I'm wondering if anyone holds that point of view, and if so, what are the reasons behind that thinking?
Click to expand...

I lean towards this view. The reason is simple. One's brain generates one's conscious existence as the person one is. If the brain disintegrates, as will happen with death, then this process is cancelled. Everything that one is disintegrates. One's unique vantagepoint on reality is lost forever. Certainly, for all practical purposes one is no more.

There is only one other view that I respect, although I am not convinced by it. I suppose you could consider it a form of rebirth, but without the karma. Basically, the argument runs something like this:

Consciousness is not something that persists through time, like an eternal soul. It is generated in brief flickers. It is not something "owned" by your body, but merely shaped by it. Consciousness arises wherever the conditions are right for its existence (i.e. where there are functioning brains). After you die, everything about you as a unique person is lost, however, consciousness still arises in other individuals. "You" might be gone, but the phenomenon of consciousness continues to arise, just as it had for you. It merely happens to arise in a different set of locations.

I regard this as very slim comfort, and it's highly speculative for me. It could just as easily be the case that we "die" every moment, and what seems like a person's life is actually millions of brief flickers of life.

Is it just being realistic in your opinions? What makes that your choice of belief?
Click to expand...

That it stands the test of reason.

Do some people believe in a God or gods, and still believe that consciousness stops after death?
Click to expand...

I think an old Jewish sect believed this. I don't recall which one.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
For me, the complete loss of consciousness is the, "but what if," situation. I see the experience (through their tales) of people that "die" and come back to life, and that reaffirms my faith in something beyond the physical, as do my experiences with what can only be considered by me as spirits, but there's always the thought in the back of my mind. The what if. What if all there is waiting for me is nothingness. What if I'll just blink out?

That's what scares me about it... I believe that concept is more frightening for me than the Christian concept of hell. Just, ending like that.

Your ideas on rebirth are interesting. I don't much buy into the karma thing either. My thoughts on rebirth are that the accumulated knowledge in the consciousness of a person is blocked at the beginning of each new life, so it acts as a clean slate. And each time that we are reborn, we learn new things, go through different situations, and our higher consciousness absorbs all information from all lives, possibly from multiple parallel universes and parallel versions of ourselves at once. Of course, I can't prove any of it, and so it remains theory.

It's all theory to me, and will be I suppose until I die. Hopefully my consciousness will still be around and I can get some answers...

Sorry for meandering off my own topic a bit... :eek: Try not to hold it against me, lol.
 
Eudaimonist said:
Consciousness is not something that persists through time, like an eternal soul. It is generated in brief flickers. It is not something "owned" by your body, but merely shaped by it. Consciousness arises wherever the conditions are right for its existence (i.e. where there are functioning brains). After you die, everything about you as a unique person is lost, however, consciousness still arises in other individuals. "You" might be gone, but the phenomenon of consciousness continues to arise, just as it had for you. It merely happens to arise in a different set of locations.

I regard this as very slim comfort, and it's highly speculative for me. It could just as easily be the case that we "die" every moment, and what seems like a person's life is actually millions of brief flickers of life.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Click to expand...

l like the idea of that as well though l am convinced we are not clean slates, but maybe that is just an ego justification for fear of the unknown/annhiliation or maybe there is truth in dna memory imprints?. l think we are so attached to personal sensations we forget that in death there is no sensations to feel or sense so there is no point in fearing the inevitable fact that death is the consumation of life; whether anything lays beyond that or not that we can 'subjectively' experience is pure speculation or a comfort euphenism. [trying to take an athiest pov without mentioning soul here!].
 
Consciousness is not something that persists through time, like an eternal soul. It is generated in brief flickers. It is not something "owned" by your body, but merely shaped by it. Consciousness arises wherever the conditions are right for its existence (i.e. where there are functioning brains). After you die, everything about you as a unique person is lost, however, consciousness still arises in other individuals. "You" might be gone, but the phenomenon of consciousness continues to arise, just as it had for you. It merely happens to arise in a different set of locations.
Click to expand...
I think somewhat differently, in that, it is my opinion that consciousness is eternal.
Consciousness is energy and is what animates our animal brains giving rise to our personalities which it seems most people confuse as being our consciousness (which it is not).
Our consciousness is our connection to the thing we call God, it is in fact a piece of God (if God can have pieces)
It is difficult to describe as we have few words or related experiences to help explain the phenomena.
Gestalt is a word used to describe a group mind made up of pieces, but unless you have experienced that, it will just be a word which describes a neat concept, like "what weightlessness" would be.
How do you explain green to a blind person?

I have had a few experiences which have caused me to think as I do, yet even I do not completely understand what occurred so am not able to convey the ideas as complete as I would like.
In any case we can all argue (if we want to) about our different points of view till the cows pack up and leave home, but we are talking about subjective beliefs.

And in the end it doesn't matter anyway as regardless of your beliefs, we are all going to die at some point, so find something that is reasonable to believe and put it through the hoops, test it out somehow to see if it is sensible or just stupid.
And keep an open mind, as we can all learn something and should keep the condition of mind in place which allows us to do so.
This is important as we can be guaranteed that some main beam in our understanding is most likely completely wrong (for all of us).
 
Lol, I apologize in advance for this, really I do...

Ok, I'll test my theory...

*pulls out razor blade*

This way I'll know for sure!

Sorry again, it was just the first thing I thought when you said test it any way you can...

I'm a bad person...

Lol, oh well...

I'm also interested with how people that believe their consciousness blinks out deal with that understanding? Like at a personal level, not grand scale or metaphorically. I mean, how do you cope with that? I would really like some pointers for those what if moments. The full repercussions of nothingness are terrifying, at least to me. But perhaps people think of it as they think of death generally, and just don't really seek to fully let it wash over you?

I dunno... Pointers?
 
immortalitylost said:
I'm also interested with how people that believe their consciousness blinks out deal with that understanding?
Click to expand...

First, I accept my finitude. I face my reality head on, with calmness, and embrace it.

Second, I realize that I never had to exist at all. Isn't it fortunate for me that I have had this opportunity to exist?

Third, I recognize that the moments of life are potentially worthwhile in themselves. The moments are not just worth something as a preliminary to some future time, such as an afterlife.

Fourth, we tend to esteem little what we have in unlimited supply. A finite life only makes life more meaningful and precious.

Fifth, it has been said that even the gods cannot change the past. I have had the amazing opportunity to exist and to experience life, and my future nonexistence does not erase this.

Sixth, I focus on life. Life is where the action is, quite literally. I uphold life as a sacred value.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Hola Mort,

As a Buddhist/Atheist I believe that wisdom and compassion exist independent of our physical body. When we die, the body ceases, but wisdom and compassion do not. It's as if we were a balloon inflated with air. When the balloon pops, the air just returns to the air.
 
immortalitylost said:
Lol, I apologize in advance for this, really I do...

Ok, I'll test my theory...

*pulls out razor blade*

This way I'll know for sure!

Sorry again, it was just the first thing I thought when you said test it any way you can...

I'm a bad person...

Lol, oh well...

I'm also interested with how people that believe their consciousness blinks out deal with that understanding? Like at a personal level, not grand scale or metaphorically. I mean, how do you cope with that? I would really like some pointers for those what if moments. The full repercussions of nothingness are terrifying, at least to me. But perhaps people think of it as they think of death generally, and just don't really seek to fully let it wash over you?

I dunno... Pointers?
Click to expand...
I said test your ideas out somehow not thinking that you would extrapolate to that extreme.:eek:
Besides, how would you report back to us then????
Maybe we would channel your report then, huh?:confused:

If your self awareness blinks out at death then what does it matter as your self would cease to care, so, no worries.
I am not an atheist, so I will move on now.
 
shawn said:
If your self awareness blinks out at death then what does it matter as your self would cease to care, so, no worries.
Click to expand...

True. I'd also like to add this relevant quote from Epicurus:

Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.

This quote might not comfort everyone, but I have found it useful to help attune my mind to the right attitude regarding death.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
c0de said:
Please define the terms in red.
Click to expand...

Consciousness is an axiomatic concept; it can't be defined in any more basic terms. You are aware of my post in the act of reading it. This act of awareness is what I mean by consciousness.

Time refers to change. When I say "through time", I mean during a process in which an entity changes.

... how?
Click to expand...

I don't have an answer to the "hard problem" of consciousness, and neither does anyone else. All I can do is point to brain research that links brain states to mind states.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
immortalitylost said:
Frankly that scares the bejeses out of me. I'm wondering if anyone holds that point of view, and if so, what are the reasons behind that thinking?

Is it just being realistic in your opinions? What makes that your choice of belief?
Click to expand...

You don't get to choose what you believe. Something either makes sense to you, or it doesn't. I believe consciousness stops after death because there is no reason to believe that it continues. The idea that everybody gets to last forever is a nice one, but it also strikes me as kind of a childish one, based in fear of death. Nobody can show proof that the consciousness continues when the body dies, the peoples of the world cannot agree on what would or could continue on, or why, and so lack of belief in the continuity of consciousness is the most reasonable conclusion. Fearing the end is a waste of energy. The majority of humanity is now dead. It's actually likely, now that I think about it, that the majority of beings that have ever lived are now dead. It is the only inevitability, the equalizer, and the only thing we really all have in common. What's the point in fearing something which is so fundamentally a part of us? Might as well fear sleep.
 
Have you ever seen nightmare on elm street, lol, that one's already taken care of.

Seriously tho, I get what your saying. In the vastness of everything we individually aren't nearly as significant or unique as we imagine, or at least it seems that way.

It's kinda hard not to fear death, it's kinda the great equalizer. Even if someone says they don't fear it, they most likely do on some level. I think that is one more thing, besides death, that we all share. The fear of it.
 
immortalitylost said:
Even if someone says they don't fear it, they most likely do on some level. I think that is one more thing, besides death, that we all share. The fear of it.
Click to expand...

I don't fear death so much as the process of dying or losing my life earlier than necessary.

Nonexistence itself is not anything to be feared. It's not like it will involve suffering.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Yeah, but you still fear death... Just not what comes after.

Hmm, I've thought of a good way to explain how I feel about death...

It's a bit like my whole existence has been spent in a building with no doors or windows. My only experience comes from talking to the others trapped in the building with me. None of us know what is outside. Some say nothing, some say something glorious and frighting. No one knows for sure, not even the people that say they know.

Every year, every day really, in my personal room of the building, the walls crumble a bit, the ceiling springs another leak, and the floorboards get weaker and weaker. My room is crumbling around me, and I know that one day it will fall down around me and I will see the outside.

Others rooms have crumbled before me, some from age, some from freak accidents, and all of these people have just disappeared. New people have taken over their rooms. Even if you are in anothers room when it crumbles, you cannot seem to get a glimpse of outside. Some try. Most are too scared to look. Everyone will go outside someday. Everyone is scared of what awaits them. No one wants to admit this...

Lol, yeah, just how I see it, how I visualize it.
 
immortalitylost:

Everyone fears death and maybe it's the fear that prevents us from glimpsing what may come after. We're so busy clinging to the solid (which is actually not so solid) that we can't, and don't want to, see anything else.

I have never met anyone who lives as though they really believe, like Roy Batty in Blade Runner, that they have a brief finite existence. People usually live as though there's never going to be an end (the job, the pension, the property etc.) - how boring is this? And why do it if you really believe you only have one short shot at life?
 
the breeze said:
immortalitylost:

Everyone fears death and maybe it's the fear that prevents us from glimpsing what may come after. We're so busy clinging to the solid (which is actually not so solid) that we can't, and don't want to, see anything else.

I have never met anyone who lives as though they really believe, like Roy Batty in Blade Runner, that they have a brief finite existence. People usually live as though there's never going to be an end (the job, the pension, the property etc.) - how boring is this? And why do it if you really believe you only have one short shot at life?
Click to expand...
Welcome Breeze. Yeah, yeah, we all know we're going to die. But, perhaps the reason we don't expect it "all to end" is that perhaps down deep we actually sense that in some way it doesn't.;) earl
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top