Reverse Inclusion and God of the Gaps

Francis,

I will spare you the obvious catalogue of CC involvement in Africa and the questions that arise from that. You are too smart and cynical for me to say anything you do not already know. I recognise the dissonance, the making of a decision that is not perfect and can never be perfect, but is worthwhile because it is better than nothing at all. You are right to do what feels right.

BB,

If you think I have answers then you are extrapolating for yourself something I myself do not see. I think I gave up hoping for answers some time ago. Instead I stick to looking at information and giving it value or otherwise dependent on how it fits with all the other bits of information I have accumulated. I am not trying to make it fit any preconceived model.

I think if you look closely at my posts, at least those concerning the questions raised here, you will see I offer no answers or solutions. Rather I focus on throwing some light on what I see as flaws, misconceptions or outright lies. I strive only to be pragmatic, not dogmatic. Perhaps I fail on both counts as far as you and others are concerned but that does not matter. I do not post to nurture a fan club nor a hate group dedicated to my removal. I come here and think slowly through the two punching index fingers I use to operate my keyboard. It is selfish, it is for me. I have no ambition of persuasion.

Thank you for the links, I have looked briefly before when SD has been raised in the past, but will take a fresh look bearing in mind the context of your suggestion.
 
tao,

i'm not seeing you as the enemy here, i just think you're stuck in a self-reinforcing loop; presuming your good faith (and mine, bearing in mind i am not interested in converting anyone), i would like to help you explore some alternative models which might challenge your current working hypotheses, which it seems to me are frustrating you. these are not religious models (gravesian SD in particular is very clear to shy away from the spiritual dimension) but data-driven, research-based, academically sound models of human development. it just strikes me that i think we are essentially on the same side, that of reason, compassion and good sense and i would like to challenge your thinking without it being about me-right/you-wrong.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Tao_Equus said:
Religious authorities, I feel, have been working overtime with governments and educational authorities on keeping people stupid. In the UK, for example, there were 28% less science graduates in the 1990's than there were in the 1970's.
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So: in the increasingly secular UK, people are becoming more stupid and not taking science at uni because of a concerted covert campaign by government, religious authorities and educational authorities? What about potential job prospects? – Not conspiratorial enough? –


"Findings – Two key signals have been identified. First is that, students seem to be adopting a consumerist approach to their HE decision making. The importance attached to labour market motives in terms of employment and career prospects significantly outweigh those related to pursuing HE on the basis of subject interest and a love for the subject. Second is that as a result of this, students consider programme and price related issues as more important than other elements of universities marketing mix"


e-Prints Soton - University and course choice: implications for positioning, recruitment and marketing


For a moment imagine mankind had evolved to this day without religion, that everyone was an atheist that believed that things happen due to cause/effect and increasing complexity within a chaotic system. How hard would it be to sell god? I think impossible.
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With only cause/effect how hard would it be to sell free will? That is definitely impossible.

 s.
 
bananabrain said:
tao,

i'm not seeing you as the enemy here, i just think you're stuck in a self-reinforcing loop; presuming your good faith (and mine, bearing in mind i am not interested in converting anyone), i would like to help you explore some alternative models which might challenge your current working hypotheses, which it seems to me are frustrating you. these are not religious models (gravesian SD in particular is very clear to shy away from the spiritual dimension) but data-driven, research-based, academically sound models of human development. it just strikes me that i think we are essentially on the same side, that of reason, compassion and good sense and i would like to challenge your thinking without it being about me-right/you-wrong.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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Great! That I welcome.
I think quite a few of us here are more or less at the same place even if we do express it in different ways.
 
Snoopy said:
So: in the increasingly secular UK, people are becoming more stupid and not taking science at uni because of a concerted covert campaign by government, religious authorities and educational authorities? What about potential job prospects? – Not conspiratorial enough? –


"Findings – Two key signals have been identified. First is that, students seem to be adopting a consumerist approach to their HE decision making. The importance attached to labour market motives in terms of employment and career prospects significantly outweigh those related to pursuing HE on the basis of subject interest and a love for the subject. Second is that as a result of this, students consider programme and price related issues as more important than other elements of universities marketing mix"


e-Prints Soton - University and course choice: implications for positioning, recruitment and marketing




With only cause/effect how hard would it be to sell free will? That is definitely impossible.

 s.
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Exactly! Churches have traditionally been the ones that organise edumacation (sic), production and taxation. There are more faith schools under Labour than at any time in modern history and they are designed to churn out cogs for the corrupt and wasteful religiocorporate machine. The remit is not to produce a better, happier society but to maintain the pyramid of power that is the status quo. The Enlightenment, and all its noble values of improving life for everybody, is dying. Consumption till destruction, straight out of animal population dynamics. Religions set out to elevate us above animals but have failed miserably, pathetically.
 
Tao_Equus said:
Exactly! Churches have traditionally been the ones that organise edumacation (sic), production and taxation. There are more faith schools under Labour than at any time in modern history and they are designed to churn out cogs for the corrupt and wasteful religiocorporate machine. The remit is not to produce a better, happier society but to maintain the pyramid of power that is the status quo. The Enlightenment, and all its noble values of improving life for everybody, is dying. Consumption till destruction, straight out of animal population dynamics. Religions set out to elevate us above animals but have failed miserably, pathetically.
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Hmmmm I'm not sure that was what I was saying, Tao.

And as for the playing out of the values of the Enlightenment, they aren't neccesarily viewed as "noble" - see the Continental Philosophy thread...;)


s.
 
Tao_Equus said:
If you think I have answers then you are extrapolating for yourself something I myself do not see. I think I gave up hoping for answers some time ago. Instead I stick to looking at information and giving it value or otherwise dependent on how it fits with all the other bits of information I have accumulated. I am not trying to make it fit any preconceived model.
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Lol, it's funny, I'm in the same boat, just on the other side of the fence! :D (And yes, I know that makes no sane sense whatsoever...) ;)

What I mean is, I do the same thing. I'm just more likely to believe in a creating force, ie. God, and your more likely not to.

I don't want anything to do with religion, though I'm not so outrightly opposed to them as you. I just don't buy that they have all the answers just cause their "answers" have been around for a long time.

I don't have any answers, and yeah, I know I prolly won't have any in this lifetime. But I'm one to hope that I may yet after this life is over. And that's all I can do is hope. I've no evidence, but no one does, I just guess a different outcome than others do. One's as likely as the next, how I see it.

I'm one to think that everything is based on cause and effect. I just see God as the toppler of the first domino, and the one who set up the pattern, yano? He doesn't even have to interfere. It's not imperative to my belief that he does. Things just work out like he planned when he set up the dominos, cuz he rocks like that, lol.

So you go down one path, and I go down another, but the paths are kinda runnin parallel.

It's kinda funny how sometimes people can be on the same page, without being on the same page, lol. :)
 
immortalitylost said:
I just see God as the toppler of the first domino, and the one who set up the pattern, yano? He doesn't even have to interfere. It's not imperative to my belief that he does. Things just work out like he planned when he set up the dominos, cuz he rocks like that, lol.
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Hey there Mort, not to put you on the spot or anything (now of course that is what I am going to do :)), but how do you know G-d is a "he" ??? Are you a sexist or what :))) ??? Now I know that you are a woman, so you see I am kind of, well, let's say, turning the tables on you a little bit here, aren't I :D:D ?? Why isn't G-d - he/she ??

{And no asking SG or Netti for help :)}
 
Lol, I don't know God is a he, it's just easier to say, or type. Less characters than she or it's, and it's just sounds wrong, yano? Lol, I'm pretty much just lazy, it's not like some core belief of mine that God is male. :p

But, God could appear as a male if he so chose, being omnipotent and all. So techincally, I guess (he's) <-- :D as much male as anything else.

Plus, it's like habit or sumptin. So many people just say "he" when referring to God, I guess I just picked it up somewhere along the way. Seems harmless enough as habits go, right? :cool:

Lol, oh yeah, and I'm so not PC enough to go the he/she route, lol.

*Shrugs* That's what I'm stickin to anyway, lol. :p
 
Now that you've got me thinking about it, I am not sure there are any "feminists" in this forum, are there ? Maybe I am the most feminist here, well maybe after CZ ???

{I kind of bet Janz is ???}
 
Avi said:
Now that you've got me thinking about it, I am not sure there are any "feminists" in this forum, are there ? Maybe I am the most feminist here, well maybe after CZ ???

{I kind of bet Janz is ???}
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Don't know if it's proper for a man to call himself feminist. I support feminism.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Don't know if it's proper for a man to call himself feminist. I support feminism.

Chris
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obama-feminist.jpg


?
 
Tao_Equus said:
Wil, you get me wrong if you think I am softening toward the notion of god. I grow ever more convinced that religion is just about the most destructive enterprise that could ever be concieved. And it has its tentacles deeply imbedded in every aspect of humanity. When the devil took Jesus to the top of that mountain, where all the lands of humanity could be surveyed, and offered it to Jesus should he come to the devils side, it had to belong to the devil for him to offer it in the first place. Jesus was not crucified to save us from our sins, he was crucified because he refused to indulge in our sins. And as a reminder of what happens should you try to question authority and practice that great misnomer, common humanity. Religion ok's our individual selfishness and wraps it in such sweet glossy metaphor that we even think our suffering is somehow noble. Suffer ye to come unto me. What a total crock of crap.

Anyhow, I'm begining to rant a bit, and I have still failed to clarify my OP, perhaps it has not fully formed yet...
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Namaste Tao,

I agree on the religion destructive enterprise notion...has caused a ton of issues...however none of those have anything to do with G!d.

I'm not saying you are softening your notion, just that your logic and science will eventually lead you to it.

As for Jesus and the devil as you know I don't believe in the critter but do believe he had quite the interior debate with himself...don't we all?

Lastly to the crucified for sins of all. I'm reading the Christ Commission by Og Mandino, interesting piece of fiction. But something it postulates which I found interesting was Cailiphs and Pilates notion that if he continued teaching and continued to develop his followers who thought him the messiah, eg gonna be the new king and overthrow the establishment...that Rome was gonna be pissed and have to come over and kill all the jews....'so better that one die to save the rest'
 
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