Ouroboros, a snake biting its tail

[Ralf Biermann]

I think in Christianity/Judaism/Islam we can agree that Satan mixes truth with lies, he deceives with half truth. I would like to give one example of a satanic symbol, the Ouroboros.

An Ouroboros is a snake (or dragon) biting its own tail, thus building a circle. In the pagan systems the symbol of the snake is equal to wisdom (remember that the Catholics call Mary „Seat of Wisdom“), the circle represents eternity and is also a symbol for a deity in the chaldean language. The Ourboros should remind the viewer also on reincarnation, the end builds a new beginning.

The Deception
Of course we know that the snake is a symbol for Satan. Thus the snake building a circle means: Satan is God.
It is written: Jesus is truth, God is love. What is the Holy Ghost? With the third component wisdom we can build a trinity: love-truth-wisdom. But the Holy Ghost is called the spirit of truth, so there is no third component. Jesus and the Father are one: True Love, wisdom is not needed in True Love, but will result out of it.

Why Half Truth?
The circle is indeed a symbol for a deity. We find the circle in the description of God: The Holy Ghost is the spirit of truth, truth is the word of God, the word of God is Jesus, Jesus is God, God is a spirit and the circle is closed.
Basically a dragon is a snake with legs. So Satan must have been a dragon before he deceived Eve. God degraded him by „removing“ his legs. This means the dragon must also have a positive meaning, since it was the condition of Satan before his fall. I found out that Jesus must most probably been born in 5BC, which was the Chinese year of the dragon, which is celebrated every 12 years. Thus it looks like that each culture has a part of the truth.
The next subject is reincarnation. The Psalms in the Bible give a hint that King David lived more than once , he also was Moses when he was proved at the waters of Meribah. I am also convinced that David will be the overcomer described in the book of Revelation, the apocalypse of John. David was called most blessed, and the eighth step of the overcomer is to become a Son of God. Of course this does not imply that every human being will reincarnate(maybe yes), but it is the case with David.

Greetings
Ralf

 

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

This means the dragon must also have a positive meaning, since it was the condition of Satan before his fall.

Yes. It is the constellation Draco that spirals around the Tree in the Garden.
A protective measure.

Satan is not against God. He is merely God's avenging angel and the tester of our faith.
It is we who fell. Not Satan.

Greetings to you as well.

 

[lunamoth]

The Deception
Of course we know that the snake is a symbol for Satan.

In Numbers 21, when the LORD sent a plague of venomous snakes to the complaining Israelites, Moses prayed to the LORD and was told: "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." (Num 21:8). Moses made a bronze snake, put it on a pole, and when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

This is referred to in John 3:14-15 when Jesus teaches Nicodemus: "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, thay everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

Here Jesus is equated with a snake, but Jesus is not Satan.

 

[Mus Zibii]

Yeah, the serpent wasn't a symbol for satan or evil, until well into the modern age. Jesus even tells his followers to be sly like snakes, echoing the Aesop story of Eden where the sly snake (not the devil) suggested Eve disobey god.

No offense Ralf, but you seem a bit bent on your theory that Catholics are horned minions of the devil. In addition the fact you could've just added this new thought to your other thread, you should read something that might provide a bit of context for these symbols your taken with.

 

[juantoo3]

Thank you, Mus Zibii!

No offense Ralf, but you seem a bit bent on your theory that Catholics are horned minions of the devil. In addition the fact you could've just added this new thought to your other thread, you should read something that might provide a bit of context for these symbols your taken with.

You beat me to it, but my thoughts were very much the same.

 

[Marsh]

Satan a good guy?

Satan is not against God. He is merely God's avenging angel and the tester of our faith.

Actually, when the 70 disciples returned to Jesus, the first thing that he said to them was that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. That's a pretty big fall. If Satan is not against God, then why did he aspire to take God's place in heaven? If someone came into my home and tried to eat my dinner while I was seated at my own table, I would feel that he is against me. But I agree that he is a tester of faith-- in the same way that enemy artillery "tests" the training of your infantry

 

[Mus Zibii]

Yeah, Luke has that line and it has Jesus talking about treading on snakes and scorpions, aligning them with the devil (can you blame him, how may people died from stings back then?). Its a complicated matter. Sometimes Christianity seems gentile, with the gentile concept of polytheism (trinity) and dualism (God and Satan), and sometimes it seems Jewish with its view that God controls everything. Its weird. There's no clear point when Zoroastrianism made its mark.

 

[iBrian]

From a comparative point of view, snakes are often associated with matriarchal spiritual traditions.

In fact, the story of the slaying of Python by Apollo at Delphi I have long interpreted as being a metaphor, that tells something of the usurption of this holy ancient shrine by patriarchal Greeks, over an existing earth-centered matriarchal tradition.

And despite that the book "The Mayan Prophecies" was utter illogical sensationalist bunk, the single redeeming feature is that, in a single chapter, it distracts to recount some ancient local beliefs. A pivotal claim in this traditional is that certain specieis of snakes were the teachers - more specifically, that the ancient locals had used the patterns of a few species as an inspiration of their own art. When the people copied nature, it was the geometric patterns of the snake that they used first to inspire them. Thus the snake was symbol of wisdom and teaching for them.

I've often wondered how far this idea can be applied elsewhere, but I do find it rather remarkable that the snake of genesis was also in a teaching position - albeit one not well regarded these days.

But, again, I'm reminded of the Apollo story, and the subjagation of the snake by Man - a concept that has dragged it's way from the ancient world and through the mediaeval world by the masculine slaying of dragrons. Funny that Revelations has a dragon in it too.

Sorry - rambling thoguhts.

 

[Mus Zibii]

Its funny how the snake in Genesis starts off as a snake, subjugated, and ends up in Revelation as a ruling dragon.

 

[KnightoftheRose]

This is just out of curiousity, but is there any point in the Bible where the snake in Eden is directly referred to as the Devil? Is it possible they are two distinctly seperate beings? I realize there are several similarities between the snake and the devil, but can they be unrelated? I'm too tired and lazy to scour the Bible right now for that answer

 

[JJM]

(remember that the Catholics call Mary „Seat of Wisdom“),

may I ask what the point of this was?
and what is the number in reference to?

Also Satan in Christian tradition fell long before the fall of humans. So your theory that the dragon is symbol of Satan before his fall is shot.

This is just out of curiousity, but is there any point in the Bible where the snake in Eden is directly referred to as the Devil? Is it possible they are two distinctly seperate beings? I realize there are several similarities between the snake and the devil, but can they be unrelated? I'm too tired and lazy to scour the Bible right now for that answer

God tells the snake that his head will be crushed by the heal of the woman in Genesis. In revelation Mary crushes the head of a dragon. Dragons have often been associated with Satan. In fact in many languages the word for dragon and Satan are the same. thus the snake represents Satan.

Oh and I'd just like to say that the trinity isn't polytheism. It's a belief in one God who is three persons but still one God.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, JJM!

Welcome back, haven't seen you around in a while.

Thank you for your post!

God tells the snake that his head will be crushed by the heal of the woman in Genesis.

With all due respect, JJM, every version I have says it is the child of the woman that will bruise the head of the serpent. The Companion version even points out the corruption in the Vulgate from It (meaning the child, usually referred to as Christ) to she in the Vulgate.

In fact in many languages the word for dragon and Satan are the same. thus the snake represents Satan.

Also, I would ask, are you directly equating serpent with dragon, as in the two being pretty much interchangable? What of Behemoth and Leviathan in the book of Job?

Thank you for your insight!

 

[JJM]

Kindest Regards, JJM!

Welcome back, haven't seen you around in a while.

Yeah this place kind of died down a bit. So, I’ve been hanging around in Christian forums. I've checked back here every one in a while. I posted in a thread about why the Christian Sabbath is on Sunday instead of Saturday. But almost every time I've come here all the threads where nearing 5 pages and I didn’t want to play catch up. I should be around more though. I think it's been good for me being away for a bit. I've gotten closer to my faith. Anyway enough about my life story. To The Post!

Thank you for your post!
With all due respect, JJM, every version I have says it is the child of the woman that will bruise the head of the serpent. The Companion version even points out the corruption in the Vulgate from It (meaning the child, usually referred to as Christ) to she in the Vulgate.

Well the Douay-Rheims, the NIV, the NLT, the NLV, the DARBY, the NIRV , and the NIV-UK says crush.

The MSG says wound.

The NAB, the CEV, and the HCSB say strike.

The KJV translated it as bruise so most translations that would have bruise in them would probably have borrowed from this.

Although it doesn’t really make a difference, because whether it is bruise of crush it still symbolizes Satan being defeated. And contrary to what I thought before this thread there is no actually spot in Revelation where his head is crushed. It just shows a woman defeating Satan by having a child. So Bruise or crush is irrelevant.

As for it and she. It’s not so much a corruption in the Vulgate as a discrepancy within different copies of the Vulgate. In Hebrew it would defiantly be "it" not “she”, but the real difference isn’t between “it” and “she” because the pronoun needs to fit with the noun it corresponds to. In some copies of the vulgate it reads “the woman” in some “the seed” apparently the difference is not only between the masculine and feminine forms of the noun. But also whether or not the word is a direct object or a subject in the sentence. Both of these things in Latin a based on suffixes. However it is irrelevant because it is through her seed that the woman defeats the Dragon in revelation so both translations reach the same out come. And that is the Snake in Genesis is the Dragon in Revelation. And in Revelation the dragon is directly referred to as the devil.

Also, I would ask, are you directly equating serpent with dragon, as in the two being pretty much interchangable? What of Behemoth and Leviathan in the book of Job?

Well yes I am. Serpent and dragon are pretty much interchangeable in theology. Even according to the original poster a dragon is basically a snake with legs. And when the snake deceived Adam and Eve he had legs thus it was actually a dragon that deceived Adam and Eve. And Revelation says the Dragon is Satan.

As for Behemoth and Leviathan. Are you asking if they are interchangeable with Satan or with themselves? for the first situation the answer is yes for leviathan and no for behemoth. For the second it is just no. Behemoth is the name of a hippo that God can control completely but Job cannot (thus showing Jobs inferiority), because according to Christian theology animals have no free will and must do the will of God. Leviathan is a sea monster. Which can be equated to the beats in Revelation if you want. Because it came out of the sea but that isn’t shown well in Job. It is only really shown in Isaiah. However he is referred to as a serpent in Isaiah which is another connection between Satan and a snake.

Hope this clears thigns up.

 

[PersonaNonGrata]

just wanted to​

 

[JJM]

but the real difference isn’t between “it” and “she” because the pronoun needs to fit with the noun it corresponds to. In some copies of the vulgate it reads “the woman” in some “the seed”

Never mind. Ignore this it is the difference between it and she I read my info wrong but the rest of the Post is good. I promise. The difference is still between not only masculine and famine but also the direct object and subject. However, the words are It and she not the seed and the woman.

 

[Ben57]

This particular subject I have never heard of before "Ouroboros, a snake biting its tail" so I have read the post with interest. I am still not clear just as to what is meant by "Ouroboros, a snake biting its tail" or the reference it has to "christian theology" but I was interested in the discution on Satan and the Snake.

Some one asked earlier if there was any place in the Bible were the Devil and the Serpent are directly linked to gether Well I found 2 places both in Revelation. Revelation 12:9 and 20:2

Now just to throw some extra thoughts in here I see the Bible as saying that Satan was not made by God at all but was a powerfull angel that betrayed his posuition when he decived Eve. The word evidently means " a slanderer" . Satan did this by slandering Gods good name by tell Eve she did not need him.
I percive that Saten spoke through a serpent and was not the actual serpent. He made it apear as if the serpent was speaking.

In Reveletion in different vissions that John was given Satan is depicted or represented as the original serpant and, as a mighty dragon but Satan always remains a spirit creature. Elsewher Satan is likened to a roaring Lion seaking to devour someone. So, these animal uses are pictorial of different aspects of the personality of Satan.

 

[JJM]

Now just to throw some extra thoughts in here I see the Bible as saying that Satan was not made by God at all but was a powerfull angel that betrayed his posuition when he decived Eve. The word evidently means " a slanderer" . Satan did this by slandering Gods good name by tell Eve she did not need him.
I percive that Saten spoke through a serpent and was not the actual serpent. He made it apear as if the serpent was speaking.

[font=&quot]I'd just like to say that the fall of Satan isn't described in the bible (except in Revelation but that is cryptic). Satan fell the Moment he was created. Because he was and angel and all of the angels where created at once by God. That is when they had the choice between Obeying God or not. Satan felt that Not only that he should be worshiped but that God should take the form of an Angel not a human. Satan had fallen before he tricked Eve in the garden.

I appreciate the rest of your insights though, they make sense to me. Can you show me where Satan is referred to as a lion? Just curious what you are referencing.[/font]

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, JJM!

Thanks for the post, it looks like you've been coming along nicely with your homework!

However, the words are It and she not the seed and the woman.

This is really the point I was addressing, although I thank you for the info concerning bruise/crush/wound/strike, I was not aware of these translations.

In the Interlinear, Peshitta, and 1611 KJV, there is the distinction, It, implying the child/offspring/seed, not the woman herself, and at least in Protestant teaching this is considered the earliest promise of the coming of Messiah.

Thank you very much, its a pleasure to see you back!

 

[Ben57]

G'day from Australia,

You arsked

[font=&quot] I appreciate the rest of your insights though, they make sense to me. Can you show me where Satan is referred to as a lion? Just curious what you are referencing.[/font]

The passage is at 1 Pet 5:8 Here it is from the RSV
8 ¶ Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

The Devil is linked to Satan at Rev 12:9 and 20 :2