The concept of obedience in the Old Testament

[Netti-Netti]

Someone recently referenced an article on Islam that reminded me of the Biblical basis for Islam's emphasis on 'submission' or obedience to G-d's will. Here are some verses with the word OBEY from the OT:

Genesis 27:8
Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.

Genesis 27:13
And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.

Genesis 27:43
Now therefore, my son, obey my voice; arise, flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran;

Exodus 5:2
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:21
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Exodus 23:22
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Deuteronomy 11:28
And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Deuteronomy 21:18
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deuteronomy 21:20
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deuteronomy 27:10
Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

Deuteronomy 28:62
And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 30:2
And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

Deuteronomy 30:8
And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Deuteronomy 30:20
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:24
And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

1 Samuel 8:19
Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

1 Samuel 12:14
If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:

1 Samuel 12:15
But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was against your fathers.

1 Samuel 15:19
Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?

1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Nehemiah 9:17
And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

Job 36:11
If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.

Job 36:12
But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

Psalms 18:44
As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.

Proverbs 30:17
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

Isaiah 11:14
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Jeremiah 7:23
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Jeremiah 11:4
Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

Jeremiah 11:7
For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Jeremiah 12:17
But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 35:14
The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

Jeremiah 38:20
But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the LORD, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be well unto thee, and thy soul shall live.

Jeremiah 42:6
Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

Jeremiah 42:13
But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,

Daniel 7:27
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Daniel 9:11
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Zechariah 6:15
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
​

Source for the Biblical citations: concordance obey, the Old Testament

Apparently the same word is used for 'hear' as for 'obey.' So there may be many more examples for the Old Testament concept of submission to Divine Will.

 

[wil]

My understanding is a closer translation, to modern usage, for the word fear in the old testament would have been respect instead of fear.

 

[Netti-Netti]

My understanding is a closer translation, to modern usage, for the word fear in the old testament would have been respect instead of fear.

Apparently the word use for 'fear' is translated as "awe" in some translations of the Bible. Also, the OT word "hear/obey" is a verb. "Fear/awe" would be a noun.

I'm sure sure OT scholars will help us out here momentarily.

 

[Avi]

Here is a translation from my JPS for Gen. 27.8:

"Now my son, listen carefully as I instruct you".

This interpretation is a little softer than the sense of obey that you originally mentioned, although I see you used hear/obey in your later post.

I do not read Hebrew so I have to rely on my JPS.

I will continue to examine the other verses and see if there are other interesting differences.

P.S. Here is another difference for Ex. 5.2

"But Pharaoh said, "Who is the Lord that I should heed Him and let Israel go" ? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go" .

 

[Avi]

Oops, I see you had indicated that obey and hear are equated in the OP, that appears to be the case.

Also, Netti, you did not mention your own thoughts about these frequent references to obeyance.

I also do not know the reform position on this issue, but my own personal view is that I obey ethical and moral imperatives, but I do not even know what G-d could expect me to obey. In a pantheistic or panentheistic sense it seems to me that obeying G-d might be to be kind to other people and animals and the enviroment and not necessarily follow Maimonides 613 laws.

 

[seattlegal]

Oops, I see you had indicated that obey and hear are equated in the OP, that appears to be the case.

Also, Netti, you did not mention your own thoughts about these frequent references to obeyance.

I also do not know the reform position on this issue, but my own personal view is that I obey ethical and moral imperatives, but I do not even know what G-d could expect me to obey. In a pantheistic or panentheistic sense it seems to me that obeying G-d might be to be kind to other people and animals and the enviroment and not necessarily follow Maimonides 613 laws.

Hi Avi! Funny thing, we three (you, me, and Netti-Netti) are on yet another thread referencing the importance of listening in getting along with one another.

 

[seattlegal]

Match colors below.

H8085 shama`

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1159
AV — hear 785, hearken 196, obey 81, publish 17, understand 9, obedient 8, diligently 8, shew 6, sound 3, declare 3, discern 2, noise 2, perceive 2, tell 2, reported 2, misc 33

1) to hear, listen to, obey

a) (Qal)

1) to hear (perceive by ear)

2) to hear of or concerning

3) to hear (have power to hear)

4) to hear with attention or interest, listen to

5) to understand (language)

6) to hear (of judicial cases)

7) to listen, give heed

a) to consent, agree

b) to grant request

8) to listen to, yield to

9) to obey, be obedient

b) (Niphal)

1) to be heard (of voice or sound)

2) to be heard of

3) to be regarded, be obeyed

c) (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon

d) (Hiphil)

1) to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound

2) to sound aloud (musical term)

3) to make proclamation, summon

4) to cause to be heard

n m

2) sound​

H4928 mishma`ath

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 4
AV — guard 2, bidding 1, obey 1
Isa 11:14

1) subjects, body of subjects, bodyguard, listeners, obedient ones

a) bodyguard

b) subjects​

H3349 yiqqahah
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV — gathering 1, obey 1
Prov 30:17

1) obedience, cleansing, purging
​

H8086 shĕma` (Aramaic)
Occurs 9 times in Dan 3:5 - Dan 7:27, translated as "hear" in eight of the nine times, translated as "obey" at Dan 7:27

1) to hear, listen to, obey

a) (Qal)

1) to hear (perceive by ear)

2) to hear of or concerning

3) to hear (have power to hear)

4) to hear with attention or interest, listen to

5) to understand (language)

6) to hear (of judicial cases)

7) to listen, give heed

a) to consent, agree

b) to grant request

8) to listen to, yield to

9) to obey, be obedient

b) (Niphal)

1) to be heard (of voice or sound)

2) to be heard of

3) to be regarded, be obeyed

c) (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon

d) (Hiphil)

1) to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound

2) to sound aloud (musical term)

3) to make proclamation, summon

4) to cause to be heard

n m

2) sound​

Genesis 27:8 H8085
Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.

Genesis 27:13 H8085
And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.

Genesis 27:43 H8085
Now therefore, my son, obey my voice; arise, flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran;

Exodus 5:2 H8085
And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Exodus 19:5 H8085
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exodus 23:21 H8085
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Exodus 23:22 H8085
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Deuteronomy 11:27 H8085
A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

Deuteronomy 11:28 H8085
And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Deuteronomy 13:4 H8085
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Deuteronomy 21:18 H8085
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deuteronomy 21:20 H8085
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deuteronomy 27:10 H8085
Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

Deuteronomy 28:62 H8085
And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 30:2 H8085
And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

Deuteronomy 30:8 H8085
And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

Deuteronomy 30:20 H8085
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:24 H8085
And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

1 Samuel 8:19 H8085
Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

1 Samuel 12:14 H8085
If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:

1 Samuel 12:15 H8085
But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was against your fathers.

1 Samuel 15:19 H8085
Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?

1 Samuel 15:22 H8085
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Nehemiah 9:17 H8085
And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

Job 36:11 H8085
If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.

Job 36:12 H8085
But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.

Psalms 18:44 H8085
As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.

**Proverbs 30:17 H3349
The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it.

**Isaiah 11:14 H4928
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

Jeremiah 7:23 H8085
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Jeremiah 11:4 H8085
Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God:

Jeremiah 11:7 H8085
For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.

Jeremiah 12:17 H8085
But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10 H8085
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jeremiah 26:13 H8085
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jeremiah 35:14 H8085
The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

Jeremiah 38:20 H8085
But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the LORD, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be well unto thee, and thy soul shall live.

Jeremiah 42:6 H8085
Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

Jeremiah 42:13 H8085
But if ye say, We will not dwell in this land, neither obey the voice of the LORD your God,

**Daniel 7:27 H8086
And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Daniel 9:11 H8085
Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Zechariah 6:15 H8085
And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

 

[shawn]

I do not read Hebrew so I have to rely on my JPS.

Isn't it rather difficult to be Jewish and not read Hebrew??
I thought it was a (sort of) Mitzvah to learn to read Hebrew?
Not that it is really a big deal.
Although, I had considered converting years ago and I felt (at the time) that it would be kind of mandatory to learn the basics like..... the language, to actually be functional in the community.
Did you convert or were you born in?

 

[Avi]

Isn't it rather difficult to be Jewish and not read Hebrew??

All interesting questions, Shawn, not at all, ignorance is the easiest thing to do (unfortunately).

I thought it was a (sort of) Mitzvah to learn to read Hebrew?

Of course, to jump to your later question, I was born a Conservative Jew. I learned Hebrew and was Bar Mitzvah. Like many Conservative Jews of my time (I was Bar Mitzvah in 1969) immediately after my Bar Mitzvah I completely rejected religion and lived a secular life. I became a scientist and engineer. Who needs all that superstition and fiction ?

Did you convert or were you born in?

I am going to move this question up, because it works better here.
As I said, I was born Conservative Jew. Do you think someone as radical and extreme as me could have converted ? Every converted Jew I have met has much more faith than I, isn't that an irony ?

It is only the last 5 years, when my children have reached an age where I would like to teach them a little about Judaism that it has become of interest to me. To give them more than I was given in this regard.

It was only recently that I began to realize that religion is not all about G-d. It is partly about our relation to G-d. It is partly about philosophy, ethics, and morality. And probably a few other things as well (like maybe feminist politics ).

Although, I had considered converting years ago and I felt (at the time) that it would be kind of mandatory to learn the basics like..... the language, to actually be functional in the community.

Really, I would not have guessed that. What lead up to that ? Sounds like an interesting journey.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Oops, I see you had indicated that obey and hear are equated in the OP, that appears to be the case.

Also, Netti, you did not mention your own thoughts about these frequent references to obeyance.

It makes perfect sense to me to equate faith with obedience - or at least link them.

The emphasis on obedience is a way of working backward to clarify the essential attitude. The act of obedience demonstrates faith. A belief that is not fully internalized doesn't influence behavior.

 

[Netti-Netti]

And then there is "obedience to the Torah." What would be a progressive understanding of that?

 

[Avi]

And then there is "obedience to the Torah." What would be a progressive understanding of that?

Trying to understand Torah, so that one can decide whether to follow the Torah laws.

Maimonides described 613 Torah Commandments. How many does it make sense to follow today ? Not to drive on Saturday ? No lights on on Saturday ? Wearing Phylacteries ? Animal sacrifices ?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Trying to understand Torah, so that one can decide whether to follow the Torah laws.

Maimonides described 613 Torah Commandments. How many does it make sense to follow today ? Not to drive on Saturday ? No lights on on Saturday ? Wearing Phylacteries ? Animal sacrifices ?

According to at least one source, the Torah's purpose is to guide children so that they are able to attain to maturity. Maybe a general, underlying attitude of obedience is what's at issue, rather than obeying specific rules....We learn the attitude by following the rules.

 

[Avi]

According to at least one source, the Torah's purpose is to guide children so that they are able to attain to maturity. Maybe a general, underlying attitude of obedience is what's at issue, rather than obeying specific rules....We learn the attitude by following the rules.

Netti, I always find your interpretation of Jewish issues very interesting and creative.

My understanding is that not only children but all people should be guided by Torah. And indeed, even though I am a reform Jew, I often find its stories inspiring and guiding in nature.

But it seems that more than "obedience" what you mean is "disciplined". And an example of disciplined one might mean not eating an apple from the tree of knowledge when it is forbidden to do so.

This is perhaps a particularly interesting example, but in Maimonides 613 Commandments there are many that I do not feel need to be followed. But certainly pretty much all of the Ten Commandments, most of us would agree should be followed.

Don't you agree those are different issues ?

 

[Netti-Netti]

My understanding is that not only children but all people should be guided by Torah.

Agreed.

seems that more than "obedience" what you mean is "disciplined". And an example of disciplined one might mean not eating an apple from the tree of knowledge when it is forbidden to do so.

I see that as a learning experience by which to learn to appreciate the divine directive. Being disciplined is not so much about being punished as it is about being reminded of the extent of G-d governance. To my way of thinking, obedience is about commitment, not about avoiding punishment.

This is perhaps a particularly interesting example, but in Maimonides 613 Commandments there are many that I do not feel need to be followed. But certainly pretty much all of the Ten Commandments, most of us would agree should be followed.

Depending on the religion you follow, the list of prohibitions can get very long.

 

[wil]

Trying to understand Torah, so that one can decide whether to follow the Torah laws.

Maimonides described 613 Torah Commandments. How many does it make sense to follow today ? Not to drive on Saturday ? No lights on on Saturday ? Wearing Phylacteries ? Animal sacrifices ?

While I currently don't ascribe to the above, I can see the value in it to those who do.

Ya know when I go to a place where there is no internet, and is no cell service, and no TVs, and no phones in the rooms... I revel in the opportunity to be free from all those imply. But that is not me deciding to take the time away from material separation and choosing to put all that aside to be with G!d more fully for the day.

And to me it follows that the benefit I receive would be increased had a consciously made that choice while it is available and around me.

Like the Imam that was recalling walking the ditch bank during Ramadan. His job was to open and close the irrigation gates, make a big loop from his home around opening and watering the fields from the canals and then closing the gates as needed. Miles from home, hundred degree temperatures, baking in the sun, no one to see him, and water water everywhere...but he chose to follow the guidance, chose to abstain while the sun was up...waited till sundown to break the fast and drink.

There is power in that. I ain't doin it, but there is power in that.

 

[shawn]

Really, I would not have guessed that. What lead up to that ? Sounds like an interesting journey.

Let's see, spent some years very involved in christianity which brought me to a bible college where I labored at a degree, but as I studied the language in word studies I started to see that there was a lot more going on than christianity was willing to admit.
I left the college as I was unwilling to become a "cultural missionary" and got into the trades as I wanted to do something practical.
I stopped attending church and began studying all I could related to kabbalah (in my spare time) which years later led me to meeting with a rabbi whom I studied under for a year and a bit.
Towards the end of this period I became aware of Bnai Noach which seemed more reasonable for me to pursue than to convert.
While I am still partial to Bnai Noach or the Noahide movement, it has very few adherents and there is virtually no fellowship, the online forums for those so inclined are very slow (you could wait months, even years to get a reply on their boards) so I have gone further afield and found the interfaith forums which, while they are far from ideal to me, they provide a place to interact with people from a varied spectrum of belief positions which has proved (at times) to be interesting and even sometimes educational.
But the lack of community for me (given my position of belief) is a sore spot.

 

[Avi]

Let's see, spent some years very involved in christianity which brought me to a bible college where I labored at a degree, but as I studied the language in word studies I started to see that there was a lot more going on than christianity was willing to admit.

Interesting observation.

I left the college as I was unwilling to become a "cultural missionary" and got into the trades as I wanted to do something practical.
I stopped attending church and began studying all I could related to kabbalah (in my spare time) which years later led me to meeting with a rabbi whom I studied under for a year and a bit.

I have not studied Kabbalah, which is a book of mysticism, I prefer to study ideas related to rationality. BB and Dauer are more interested than I in mysticism, you might like to discuss this with them. However, they have not read the Zohar, they are still too young (you must be 40 to read the Zohar in traditional Judaism).

 

[dauer]

Avi,

Kabbalah isn't a book, I've never made any mention of having read/not read the zohar and don't adhere to "traditional Judaism", and I'm pretty sure BB gave you somewhat different reasons for not having read much of the Zohar.

 

[bananabrain]

While I am still partial to Bnai Noach or the Noahide movement, it has very few adherents and there is virtually no fellowship, the online forums for those so inclined are very slow (you could wait months, even years to get a reply on their boards) so I have gone further afield and found the interfaith forums which, while they are far from ideal to me, they provide a place to interact with people from a varied spectrum of belief positions which has proved (at times) to be interesting and even sometimes educational. But the lack of community for me (given my position of belief) is a sore spot.

i sympathise. i hope the opportunity to interact with jewish people is helpful. i do wonder, however, what the agenda of jewish groups who push the bnai noach thing actually is. i'm not too familiar with it, it isn't very well known in the UK at all.

I have not studied Kabbalah, which is a book of mysticism, I prefer to study ideas related to rationality.

*buzz* false dichotomy there, avi, if you think there's no rationality in kabbalah.

Kabbalah isn't a book, I've never made any mention of having read/not read the zohar and don't adhere to "traditional Judaism", and I'm pretty sure BB gave you somewhat different reasons for not having read much of the Zohar.

indeed, kabbalah isn't a book. and my reasons for not having gone into zohar up till now have not been about age, but principally about realising how unprepared for it i would have been. the time for going there is fast approaching, however and, coincidentally, i reckon my 40th birthday will be about the right sort of time to commence my further studies. ironic, really.

b'shalom

bananabrain