The concept of obedience in the Old Testament

BB said:
i sympathise. i hope the opportunity to interact with jewish people is helpful. i do wonder, however, what the agenda of jewish groups who push the bnai noach thing actually is. i'm not too familiar with it, it isn't very well known in the UK at all.
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Well it was pushed heavily by M.M. Schneerson.
 
bananabrain said:
*buzz* false dichotomy there, avi, if you think there's no rationality in kabbalah.
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:D, ok BB, I will be glad to discuss this issue, if you like, as I mentioned earlier, I have a Zohar, and I am willing to take a look at specific examples. By all means give me an example !! :)
 
The zohar is only one branch of understanding in the tree of kabbalah and it has its focus on the doctrine of emanations.
To be sure there are a lot of profound insights contained in that set of works.
But it is by no means complete kabbalah.
(some rabbi's even dispute whether it is true kabbalah)
It is a school of thought in the mystical vein, one of several.
 
This may not be the place to ask these questions but I will give it a go anyway. What is the purpose of obedience? of laws? of rituals? Is the Divine so unknowable that we have to be good obedient followers in order to experience a taste of the Essence? Is there freedom in obedience or are we slaves to the letter of the Law? Why does one person *need* structure and another doesn't?
 
And, BB, just to give you an example, first, I will show you some content from Buber's, Baal Shem (p. 17, The Legend of Baal Shem, Martin Buber).

Hitlahavut: Ecstasy
Hitlahavut is "the burning", the ardour of ecstasy. A fiery sword guards the way to the tree of life. It scatters into sparks before the touch of hitlahavut, whose light finger is more powerful than it. To hitlahavut the path is open, and all bounds sink before its boundless step. The world is no longer its place: it is the place of the world.

Hitlahavut unlocks the meaning of life. Without it even heaven has no meaning and no being. "If a man has fulfilled the whole of the teaching and all the commandments, but has not had the rapture of the burning, when he dies and passes beyond, paradise is opened to him, but because he has not felt rapture in the world, he also does not feel it in paradise".
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Beautiful ideas, no doubt, but do you think this is an example of rationalism, compared with, for example, the Talmud ?

By all means, BB, please give an example of how Zohar is rationalistic. :)
 
dauer said:
Well it was pushed heavily by M.M. Schneerson.
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i was just about to say it sounded like the sort of line that chabad would take.

Avi said:
By all means, BB, please give an example of how Zohar is rationalistic.
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er... i said kabbalah, not zohar; i don't know zohar well enough to make that argument in relation to, say, lurianic kabbalah. shawn has it right. on the other hand, in terms of bio-socio-psycho models, the theology of emanations of the tree of life, as derived from various parts of the zohar, is pretty rationalist. however, i would suggest, if you want to find some deeply rational, universalistic and indeed mathematically interesting insights which, as an engineer (i think) you would find instructive, you should take a look at the aryeh kaplan edition of the sefer yetzirah, which you can obtain from any good online bookstore. that i am quite able to discuss, as much of my work on organisational behaviour is based on the insights there - not that i tend to mention that in a room full of suits, although there's always the chance that someone will recognise the underlying model.

Janz said:
This may not be the place to ask these questions but I will give it a go anyway. What is the purpose of obedience? of laws? of rituals? Is the Divine so unknowable that we have to be good obedient followers in order to experience a taste of the Essence? Is there freedom in obedience or are we slaves to the letter of the Law? Why does one person *need* structure and another doesn't?
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actually, janz, this is *exactly* the place to ask those questions. kabbalah does give us a set of reasons why, in fact it gives us a number of sets, some of which appear to contradict each other, or, as i would prefer to suggest, they are different levels of understanding of the same thing, a holarchy or, if you prefer, a russian doll.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
BB said:
owever, i would suggest, if you want to find some deeply rational, universalistic and indeed mathematically interesting insights which, as an engineer (i think) you would find instructive, you should take a look at the aryeh kaplan edition of the sefer yetzirah, which you can obtain from any good online bookstore.
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Curiously I'd been talking to Avi about that via PM. I'm interested in looking at the convergence of math and kabbalah in Aryeh Kaplan's writings and thought he might be able to offer me some suggestions for familiarizing myself with the math involved. He seemed to express skepticism, suggesting that looking at the convergence of math and kabbalah would likely not prove to be very fruitful in the end, but encouraged me just the same to pursue my interests. From what I've gathered the most important thing to grapple with seems to be dimensions greater than 3. In a moment of synchronicity, that topic came up a bit in Anathem by Neal Stephenson, which I've just finished reading today.
 
Janz said:
This may not be the place to ask these questions but I will give it a go anyway. What is the purpose of obedience? of laws? of rituals? Is the Divine so unknowable that we have to be good obedient followers in order to experience a taste of the Essence? Is there freedom in obedience or are we slaves to the letter of the Law? Why does one person *need* structure and another doesn't?
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I don't think "obedience" is necessarily about structure. I think it can be more about a religious attitude.
 
Janz said:
This may not be the place to ask these questions but I will give it a go anyway. What is the purpose of obedience? of laws? of rituals? Is the Divine so unknowable that we have to be good obedient followers in order to experience a taste of the Essence?
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Very good questions that I wanted to revisit.

At first glance, obedience might seem like humans' part in a covenantal relationship. But consider this: most of the covenants G-d entered into with the Israelites were unconditional. That is, G-d is portrayed
as intending to bless the Israelites no matter what in order to show His commitment.

Let's proceed with the understanding that G-d's loving concern toward the Israelites was indeed unconditional. Would that make their commitment and obedience irrelevant? I think not.

Obedience is based on a appreciation for G-d's sovereignty. There is a kind of an authoritarian orientation where obedience appears as a duty. But There are other ways to understand it. Obedience doesn't have a coercive quality if it reflects a religious attitude. In particular, obedience can express these kinds of awareness:

1) recognition of our dependence (and the dependence of Creation as a whole) on the Creator

2) appreciation for G-d's involvement, loving concern, and fidelity towards Creation

3) a shift in the sense of G-d as "the first and foremost and only reality" (Adin Steinsaltz)

Probably not a complete list, but these things seem most important to me.

When the term obedience is used in reference to these expressive aspects, its goal is mainly to recognize and affirm G-d's presence and involvement. Again, it does not have a coercive quality, as though a duty gets imposed from the outside by an overbearing task master.

In this connection, I'd appreciate some elaboration from a Jewish person as to how Divine Command can accomplish a person's holiness, as reflected in the Jewish prayer "Blessed are You, sovereign who has made us holy with the mitzvot."

Thanks and may you have a good and sweet year!
 
I will make a few comments, but my view is not a traditional Jewish one and others might disagree or offer another perspective.


Netti-Netti said:
3) a shift in the sense of G-d as "the first and foremost and only reality" (Adin Steinsaltz)
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I like this quote and I like Steinsaltz. He is an Orthodox Rabbi but his insights are quite unique and we use his Talmud in our studies.


In this connection, I'd appreciate some elaboration from a Jewish person as to how Divine Command can accomplish a person's holiness, as reflected in the Jewish prayer "Blessed are You, sovereign who has made us holy with the mitzvot."
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I can see why you would seek clarification on this issue. My own view is that I interpret ideas like this one metaphorically. What resonates with me is that the mitzvot which are ethically and morally defensable can make us holy by following them. The connection to G-d (sovereign) is more subtle and could lead to interesting discussions about revelation, panentheism, anthropomorphism, etc.
 
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