Interfaith Practice and the Dalai Lama

There does not have to be one centralized authority figure excommunicating people to have incidences of shoving people outside the religion.
I was talking about systematic persecution and denominational conflict with the authority of a key official behind it.

Protestant churches, generally evangelical fundamentalist ones, have denied mainstream traditional Protestants and Catholics as being part of the Body of Christ.
In ideological form or in the form of actual persecution?

Some liberal Christian churches have had incidences of denying fundamentalists.
Denying them what?

Whether at a single church level, or a sect/denomination, this occurs throughout history.
I'm talking about now.

I don't accept any basis for his authority, actually. I hold him in esteem as a religious practitioner and leader because his works have made a difference for people and I have learned from them.
Recall that I've been talking about this from the standpoint of a naive observer. I don't think of someone with a doctorate in anthropology qualifies as naive.

You seem to argue that ritual is meaningful based on shared religion; I argue that ritual can be meaningful based on mystical interior experience.
How much discussion was there of mystical interior experience before the the Amitabha Buddha initiation?

It is hardly an arbitrary modification that allows one ritual to be used in a different religious context.
A ritual derives its meaning from the religion of which is a part. That's why it is necessary to study the religion in depth in order to comprehend the meaning of its rituals. You seemed to indicate you wanted to devote a year to such a study.

There is reason to believe that the average American Buddhist does not fully understand the Buddhist tradition after years of practice. How do you think non-Buddhists would compare? Do you really want to encourage people to participate in rituals they don't understand?

Just because the modification is done by the practitioner and not an authority figure does not make it arbitrary.
If they didn't understand the original ritual, how can it be anything but arbitrary?:confused::eek::( It would be totally arbitrary and meaningless.

This is probably one of the main areas we differ. I cannot imagine being offended or upset if someone from another religion used one of my tradition's rituals or practices and modified it.
Wouldn't you wonder whether they know what they're doing? Btw, would you encourage Buddhists to take holy communion without knowing quite a bit about eucharistic theology and Christian salvation concepts?

I would only hope that they received some of the energy, the investment of the past, in that ritual.
But of course that would depend on the extent of their understanding. The problem with a mass event is that there is no way to account for level of understanding. This is why people are 'educated in the faith,' so to speak, and it is why there is such a thing as a teacher/disciple relationship. I'm astonished I have to mention these things. Sorry, you're speaking like someone who has no religious upbringing at all.

That seems to set up an awfully bounded set of systems.
If religions are not really different from each other, there's no point in studying them and the whole concept of "Interfaith" becomes pointless. To my way of thinking, it's not what they have in common, it's how religions are different that makes them worth studying.
 
Time for the Kalama Sutta, once again,

...and Nazism...:rolleyes:


I suppose I can start throwing fish, pies, buckets of water, and shooting paintballs in a lighthearted and fun way, directing the appropriate and/or inappropriate projectile towards each person according to their own traditions, so as to give meaning, or not, in order to shock them out of their destructive behavior or though patterns....or not. :p

Bring it on, ducky. :)

s.
 
Bring it on, ducky. :)
It's true:
Buddhistically-oriented Westerners who extol
the virtues of increasing social solidarity
among religious groups on Interfaith discussion
forums spend most of their waking hours in
sadistic fantasies, breathlessly imagining
the joys of showing off their expertise as
a world-renowned ballistics expert who
overwhelms the opponent with 'point blank
range' paintballs.

The beautifully articulated ideological
commitments that show up in Buddhist
virtue discussions are carefully staged
distractions that divert attention from
the real agenda (aka 'trajectory shrouding
countermeasures'). When they say meta,
they really mean "clobber" or "trounce."
 
I was talking about systematic persecution and denominational conflict with the authority of a key official behind it.

In ideological form or in the form of actual persecution?

Denying them what?

I'm talking about now.

OK, have it your way. I'm sure this instance of the Dalai Lama excommunicating people is completely unique in the contemporary world, there is nothing else like it, and he should be shunned. :rolleyes:

(If you are really uninformed about the denominational and sectarian strife in Christianity and other religions, I apologize, but I think you are more educated than that and are being difficult.)

Recall that I've been talking about this from the standpoint of a naive observer. I don't think of someone with a doctorate in anthropology qualifies as naive.

Why do you assume the others were naive? I choose to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are there for a reason, and probably have some prior knowledge of the event and teachings in question, or they would not have interest. While some people may be naive, I see no reason to assume most of them are and then create imaginary problems stemming from this.

If someone is totally naive about what they are observing, I fail to see why they would participate. And if they did and they didn't understand it, I fail to see the inherent harm of their attempt.

How much discussion was there of mystical interior experience before the the Amitabha Buddha initiation?

There was some discussion of it during the 3.5 hour lecture preceding the initiation.

I see no reason why ritual cannot interact with one's own mystical experience even if this is not discussed. I know it does for me whether people discuss it ahead of time or not. I don't think I'm terribly special in my capacity to have ritual create meaning through mystical experience. Arguably, that is, after all, one of the primary functions of ritual in general.

A ritual derives its meaning from the religion of which is a part. That's why it is necessary to study the religion in depth in order to comprehend the meaning of its rituals. You seemed to indicate you wanted to devote a year to such a study.

No, I wanted to devote a year to study in order to understand the experience of a practitioner from that religion- to understand the religion from the inside.

Ritual can provide meaning independent of religion, as all religious rituals tend to use symbolism, the arts, music/sound, and so on, which are not wholly dependent on the religions from which they arise. Aum arises from Hinduism, Awen from Welsh Druidry... but many people who have stepped into both religions report that the resonance and its mystical effect when chanted is the same. Experience does not need to be filtered through language and ideas to be meaningful. Some kinds of communication and transformation occurs at a subconcious level, and I would argue at a subtle energetic level.

We clearly disagree on how we understand ritual itself to be- what its purpose and potential is for transforming the individual and broader human consciousness.

There is reason to believe that the average American Buddhist does not fully understand the Buddhist tradition after years of practice. How do you think non-Buddhists would compare? Do you really want to encourage people to participate in rituals they don't understand?

As I say above, the meaning of ritual experience is myriad. For some, it is based on knowledge and for others, it may be based on artistic expression, mystical experience, or other forms of communication that transcend ordinary religious study. One can study religion and its concepts for years and never reach a transformative experience, and one can never study religion and reach such experiences.

Aside from that, I am neither encouraging nor discouraging people to participate in any types of rituals. In my opinion, that should be wholly up to the individual. I can't judge another person's journey.

If they didn't understand the original ritual, how can it be anything but arbitrary?:confused::eek::( It would be totally arbitrary and meaningless.

Assuming that art, symbol, and so forth in ritual have no capacity to communicate anything on their own... That there is no universal form of communication in the human being, nor any way to reach out to any other sort of being. This presumes that everything is culturally bound and learned only through study and formal training. I strongly disagree with such presumptions.

Wouldn't you wonder whether they know what they're doing? Btw, would you encourage Buddhists to take holy communion without knowing quite a bit about eucharistic theology and Christian salvation concepts?

I am entirely neutral on who takes communion. I don't consider it my place to choose who would benefit and who would not. I think no harm can come from someone doing so (either to themselves or to other beings), so I have no stance on the matter.

Individuals should be free to follow their spiritual journey as they see fit, in my opinion, so long as others' capacity to do so is upheld.

In both Druidry and Christianity, I have never felt offended at someone attempting to make something from these religions meaningful to them. Whether they consider themselves "in" or "out" of the group, and whether or not they are enough like myself for me to consider them to be "in" or "out" is entirely irrelevant to me. I believe we can commune with the Divine and with our deepest selves through the performance of ritual (this is one of many ways) and it is not for me to determine how or what will make a meaningful difference in another person's life.

But of course that would depend on the extent of their understanding. The problem with a mass event is that there is no way to account for level of understanding. This is why people are 'educated in the faith,' so to speak, and it is why there is such a thing as a teacher/disciple relationship. I'm astonished I have to mention these things. Sorry, you're speaking like someone who has no religious upbringing at all.

I didn't have a religious upbringing. I had a spiritual and mystical upbringing.

However, I have studied religion a long time and I know what you're talking about. I just disagree. I think trying to keep track of everyone's level of understanding and so on is micromanaging other people's spiritual journeys. I fully recognize the value of the teacher/disciple relationship, but I fail to see what that has to do with the value or non-value of people attending mass events. The two are entirely different things.

If religions are not really different from each other, there's no point in studying them and the whole concept of "Interfaith" becomes pointless. To my way of thinking, it's not what they have in common, it's how religions are different that makes them worth studying.

To my way of thinking, it is both what they have in common and how they are different that makes them worth studying. And it is the capacity of humans to engage in spirituality, self-transformation, and communion with all beings and the Divine that illuminates the hope of interfaith understanding, encouragement, and tolerance.
 
No, I wanted to devote a year to study in order to understand the experience of a practitioner from that religion- to understand the religion from the inside.
I've been suggesting that in order to understand a ritual, it helps a lot to understand the experience of persons who use the ritual in its original form in their religious practice. Apparently you don't agree with me on this - for reasons I don't quite understand.

I cannot imagine being offended or upset if someone from another religion used one of my tradition's rituals or practices and modified it. I would only hope that they received some of the energy, the investment of the past, in that ritual.
I don't see how encouraging people to modify rituals to suit themselves can help them understand the ritual in its original form or help them understand the religion of which it is a part "from the inside" (your terms).

Rituals embody sacred messages which are pretty much by definition "invariant." So says Roy Rappaport, a social anthropologist (1926–1997) and I would agree. To argue for "fluidity" and interchangeability of parts of ritual across faith traditions completely ignores the need for invariance and, arguably, nullifies the uniqueness of the religion, which in turn makes a mockery of the idea of "interfaith."

Aum arises from Hinduism, Awen from Welsh Druidry... but many people who have stepped into both religions report that the resonance and its mystical effect when chanted is the same.
Maybe so, but they are not necessarily using the discrete ritual elements as part of the large religious practice of Hinduism or Welsh Druidry... They are using them only to achieve a certain effect. Which reminds me, there are yoga teachers who refuse to teach yoga practices without also teaching the associated religious doctrines. The practices are byproducts of the metaphysics.

Ritual can provide meaning independent of religion, as all religious rituals tend to use symbolism, the arts, music/sound, and so on, which are not wholly dependent on the religions from which they arise
These are largely culture-bound. Even our ability to recognize certain features in art and symbols are conditioned by cultural experience. Sound and music are culture bound, too. Jazz musicians are baffled by their inability to get a response from people in India, for example. Those people think of music in totally terms. Some Arabic scales have 30 notes instead of twelve. This makes them largely incompatible with Western music. I think you assume universals where there are none.
 
I've been suggesting that in order to understand a ritual, it helps a lot to understand the experience of persons who use the ritual in its original form in their religious practice. Apparently you don't agree with me on this - for reasons I don't quite understand.

I believe I have explained the difference between understanding and experience quite a bit in the former post. I am not sure what more to say at this time so that it will be clear. Understanding what a ritual means in context is a different goal than experiencing an inner transformation.

I don't see how encouraging people to modify rituals to suit themselves can help them understand the ritual in its original form or help them understand the religion of which it is a part "from the inside" (your terms).

I agree. But then, I was referring to a different goal than understanding the ritual in its original form or understanding the religion "from the inside."

I was referring to the value of ritual (modified or not) in self-transformation and inner awakening.

Rituals embody sacred messages which are pretty much by definition "invariant." So says Roy Rappaport, a social anthropologist (1926–1997) and I would agree. To argue for "fluidity" and interchangeability of parts of ritual across faith traditions completely ignores the need for invariance and, arguably, nullifies the uniqueness of the religion, which in turn makes a mockery of the idea of "interfaith."

I disagree (and so would most of my contemporaries). I do not think rituals embody invariant sacred messages. William James' discussion of the high diversity of practitioners' experience and understanding of the message and meaning of ritual, which we find within any religion, negates the idea that the message is invariant. The message of rituals change over time due to differing historical and cultural context whether or not one is within the tradition or not and whether or not one has modified the ritual or not. In fact, during any given ritual, the understanding of its meaning and the experience of the practitioners will vary, even among a so-called homogenous group.

I respect Rappaport quite a bit- his book "Pigs for the Ancestors" was foundational in cultural ecology and understanding the integration of ecology with religion. However, he was working with small-scale tribal peoples, and even then, he has been criticized for presenting them as rather uniform compared to reality. The early anthropologists were often focused more on homogeneity and presumed cultural agreement in small-scale societies that, in later times, was shown was not there. As I operate partially out of conflict theory, I would disagree that ritual has invariant meaning. Religious ritual, whether done in a single faith group or an interfaith one, will involve conflicting ideas and experiences among participants which may be negotiated through modification, contested, ignored but underlying, etc.

Any single blanket statement about ritual and pracitioners' experience of it and grasp of meaning is likely to be an inaccurate one. The complexity of human cognition when it relates to concepts through ritual practice is too great.

These are largely culture-bound. Even our ability to recognize certain features in art and symbols are conditioned by cultural experience. Sound and music are culture bound, too. Jazz musicians are baffled by their inability to get a response from people in India, for example. Those people think of music in totally terms. Some Arabic scales have 30 notes instead of twelve. This makes them largely incompatible with Western music. I think you assume universals where there are none.

I think you assume people get nothing out of ritual experience without prior study and a certain level of understanding. I don't presume to be able to define what others can get out of a ritual. As I have seen and experienced getting meaning and inner mystical experience through ritual, symbol, music, and art that I do not extensively understand nor have I extensively studied... I disagree that this is impossible for people. And I don't think I'm the only one. Perhaps some people have little or no mystical or artistic inclination, so they are less sensitive to impact from symbols and ritual, but clearly others who are more inclined to engage in this find some meaning.

As for universals- There is very rarely nothing. There is very rarely everything. There is generally something.

While some music may be culture-bound, other types are not. While some art is, other types are not. And so on. Ritual, in engaging multiple sensory input at once, could have the capacity to create meaning in a participant devoid of its original context.

But, of course, in this case it was not devoid of its original context. It was framed by a rather long lecture. I don't think any person has the right or ability to define for another person what "enough" study, context, and so forth entails. Perhaps that is one of the chief areas we differ. I'm for personal freedom in this matter. Anyone who does not want to participate in an interfaith ritual certainly does not have to. No one is forced to do anything. So I fail to see what the problem is in willing participants choosing to participate together.
 
I was referring to the value of ritual (modified or not) in self-transformation and inner awakening.
Even though Communion was the at the core of the Catholic mass, no one ever explained what it is to commune with G-d. I've been snooping around in the anthropology of religion and I have not found much on mystical side of ritual. Even descriptions of shamanic rituals suggest that rituals are dramatic public displays or "cultural performances" that have a theatrical quality.

Ritual appears to be a kind of story-telling device that conveys a fairly specific set of ideas and values or it's a means of regulating emotions. Most of what I am finding in the anthropology of religion support this view about the social meaning of ritual. Even the more psychological views emphasize the aspect of shared social meanings. For example Luminet and Curci ( 2009): "Rituals are forms of communication through actions. They generally constitute strongly patterned and recurring forms of collective behaviour." Their principal value is ritual is communication for the purpose of "proclaiming values in order to influence opinions, authorities or social movements." In other words, ritual is a kind of propaganda. You mentioned symbols Some observers contend thhat they are actually condensed rituals.

Anyhoo, my comments so far have dealt with only one thing: who gets to change the message? Quite a few of your responses sidestep that question by introducing ambiguities like individual differences in response to ritual. Of course there are individual differences, but they don't directly affect the basic parameters and intended meaning of the rituals themselves.

Luminet and Curci ( 2009) add that rituals reinforce emotions ans strengthen social cohesion. This entails solidifying collective memories and shaping people's expectations for a collective destiny. individual differences in response to ritual and mystical experiences are not really at issue here. Ritual can be said to embody not only enduring social meanings, but a people's entire history. So to try to change rituals is like trying to change history. Regardless of whether there is any hope of accomplishing such a thing in any kind of meaningful way, my first reaction is: Please don't to leave it to outsiders who have a superficial understanding of the history. I meant to ask you, did the 3.5 hour lecture include a explanation of where the prayer you mentioned in your post #59 came from?

I disagree (and so would most of my contemporaries).
I'm actually getting into this subject matter. Who would you include among your contemporaries that I can look up in Google Scholar?

William James' discussion of the high diversity of practitioners' experience and understanding of the message and meaning of ritual, which we find within any religion, negates the idea that the message is invariant.
I looked at James' "Varieties of Religious Experience" and found very little on the subject of ritual. One might get the impression that they are unrelated. That reminds me, what ritual was Paul engaged in when he had an experience on his way to Damascus?

caravaggio_conversion_of_paul_on_road_to_damascus_w.jpg


A "Do it Yourself" approach to religion is outside the parameters of organized religion (Beckford &Walliss, 2006) . That's why a "Do it yourself" approach has an arbitrary quality to it. It is fundamentally different from magico-religious institutions that are said to have "deep structures" which endure over time. Liturgical practices last hundreds of years without any substantive changes. Having people plug in their own images and concepts into existing ritual is to collapse the distinction between private experience and formal/public enactment of commitment to conventions and beliefs and the interests of the community. In this connection, I recently saw a description of Jewish rituals that almost suggested they have no other function than to communicate the male's commitment to communal values and traditions. For some reason, this communal aspect is less of an issue for Jewish women.. Don't know why that is.

In fact, during any given ritual, the understanding of its meaning and the experience of the practitioners will vary, even among a so-called homogeneous group.
Well, of course, but differences in their reactions don't necessarily affect the rituals themselves. Religious ritual is not supposed to be creative and open-ended. It's supposed to be followed religiously, which would explain why it is described as "stereotyped" and "repetitive." A ritual is repeated over and over again to demonstrate its constancy over time and to counteract "drift" due to the individual differences in response.

The message of rituals change over time due to differing historical and cultural context whether or not one is within the tradition or not and whether or not one has modified the ritual or not..
Rituals themselves actually don't change much, and if they do, that doesn't mean they weren't intended to be invariant. In fact, liturgical practices last hundreds of years.

The reason rituals don't change much has to do with the very nature of ritual. Rituals are rooted in a desire to obtain certainty in an ambiguous world. Because they don't want to be accused of tinkering needlessly, ecclesiastic authorities who are in charge of rituals would likely undertake changes only if the changes are expected to increase certainty and reduce ambiguity. The changes are likely be refinements with a clear theological rationale.

Your argument seems to be that (1) theological rationale doesn't really matter because individual interpretations/reactions should be factored in and (2) religious feelings are more important than the reliable form of outward ritual. I actually agree with most of that, but it doesn't really shed light on the issues. It totally ignores the fact that significant changes made to rituals in the world of magico-religious institutions are not idiosyncratic or dependent on how any one individual thinks or feels about it. They can involve a great deal of debate. The most recent changes in Catholic liturgy are the result of 15 years of zealous argumentation.
Liturgy changes for U.S. Catholics

You mentioned druidism. I'm not sure we can say that the magical formula that guides druidic ritual was intended to be modified. In witchcraft and animistic religions, we find that spells and prayers are specifically written in lead curse tablets to give them "unalterable permanence" (Fitz Graf, 1997). The point here is simply this: open-endedness is not a goal for changes in ritual. Open-endedness might be a goal for someone's personal religiosity (especially if they likes to think of themselves as being eclectic), but that's a different matter entirely.

When there changes are made to rituals and liturgy, I expect would reflect some kind of meaningful dialectic. That's very different from arbitrary, on-the-spot changes made by individuals who have been encouraged to plug in images and concepts from their own tradition if the existing ritual doesn't speak to them. My point is merely this: do we honor the intention underlying a Buddhist ritual and really study what it's about or do we just kind of riff on it to come up with some new variation of "Do it yourself" religion"?
 
I've been snooping around in the anthropology of religion and I have not found much on mystical side of ritual.

That is partly because anthropology of religion is generally coming from the sub-field of cultural anthropology, and so focuses on the social and cultural aspects of religion. Mysticism is an individual, psychological, and cognitive aspect of religious or spiritual life that, while inevitably impacted by culture, has at its root the purpose of eschewing conditioning in order to pursue truth. For the most part, anthropology hasn't touched this, which has been explored far more by religious studies and psychology.

Ritual appears to be a kind of story-telling device that conveys a fairly specific set of ideas and values or it's a means of regulating emotions.

Ritual generally includes a set of ideas and values that, in the case of an organized and institutionalized religion, will have one or more doctrinally sound meanings. However, this does not mean individuals practicing the ritual will know, understand, or agree with those "approved" meanings. This is where conflict theory and other theories that deal with the diversity present (particularly in modern religions and cultures) assists in our understanding of the "ideal" culture of a religion (i.e., what is doctrinally approved) and the "real" culture of a religion (what people actually do, think, and experience). As for regulating emotions- some ritual regulates and other ritual simply opens emotional experience. A rite of rebellion, such as Mardi Gras, is meant to regulate when and how people express their dissatisfaction with social norms and governance. But something like Communion can have a very wide range of emotional effects on participants, despite its doctrinally approved meaning.

For example Luminet and Curci ( 2009): "Rituals are forms of communication through actions. They generally constitute strongly patterned and recurring forms of collective behaviour." Their principal value is ritual is communication for the purpose of "proclaiming values in order to influence opinions, authorities or social movements."

While ritual communicates through action (as well as through the use of the arts), they may or may not be collective. Ritual can be done by an individual, of course.

I would also put forth that what you'll find from anthropologists or sociologists in their analysis of the value of ritual will be different from what you'll find from a religious or spiritual practitioner viewpoint (and of course different still from a mystic). As I said above, one must consider the area of expertise and how the researcher relates the data to the subject s/he studies. As anthropologists largely study groups, not individuals, anthropology of religion has tended to focus heavily on the group dynamic.

Remember, I am not speaking here only as an anthropologist. I posted this from my own experience and viewpoint, which was as a practitioner and mystic. We can debate anthropological theory all day long, but that doesn't negate my own experience and right to have a view as a spiritual practitioner.

Debating theory about ritual doesn't get around the fundamental issue- that I think individuals should be free to do interfaith ritual if they want, and you seem to argue that people should restrict these practices because you find it offensive or meaningless.

I am not arguing someone like yourself who finds this offensive or meaningless should participate. I am arguing that every individual should have the freedom to do what is meaningful to her/himself and we should respect one another's spiritual journeys.

Anyhoo, my comments so far have dealt with only one thing: who gets to change the message?

My point is that "intended meaning" (ideal culture) is always somewhat in conflict with reality (real culture) anyway. So what "the message" is and who defines it is itself a question about power and conflict.

My argument is that anyone can change the message for themselves or others. Meaning is an individual, interior cognitive happening. There is a sort-of something we call culture, but it has no life of its own outside of the individuals involved. Because of this, it changes over time, and there is a constant conflict and negotiation of power, both in the nuts and bolts aspects of culture (who has the money, the weapons, etc.) and in the superstructural elements (concepts, religion, ritual, etc.).

You seem to think there is or should be some frozen meaning to stuff people make up (i.e., ritual). But there is never a frozen meaning. It is always a negotiation of individuals' plays for power, belonging, control and so forth-- sometimes this coalesces into movements and groups and sometimes it does not.

So, my answer, straight up: Everyone "gets" to change the message. Why? Because "the message" inevitably resides in individuals' heads.

Now, if you're asking who "gets" to change the message legitimately... well, there is no single answer to that. Who ever can get a following, can gain power, can change the tides- their version of the message becomes the new legitimate version. This is the nature of religious change (you might try Wallace and the literature on revitalization movements and new religious movements).

Generally speaking, there is always an underlying diversity within every religion- not only on an individual level, but in groups that disagree about this or that, each trying to legitimize itself. This is partly why I am rather skeptical about religion and authenticity in my own spiritual journey, and am more concerned with personal experience.

Luminet and Curci ( 2009) add that rituals reinforce emotions ans strengthen social cohesion. This entails solidifying collective memories and shaping people's expectations for a collective destiny.

All of this entirely depends on the ritual and its temporal and cultural context. Again, there is a reason why new religious movements spring up constantly. If ritual (and religion more broadly) was so good at fulfilling this function, these conflicts and changes wouldn't happen. Yet they constantly do. Ideas about a collective meory and destiny are all well and good, but ignore how people actually work. Generally speaking, what you have is a relatively thin veneer of collectivism over what is a boiling cauldron of individual goals, desires, ideas, and experiences... and this often overcomes that collectivism, leading to the formation of new movements, sects, denominations, and so forth.

So to try to change rituals is like trying to change history.

History is not one frozen thing. History is unfolding right now. Rituals and their meanings must accommodate the broader changes if they are to retain efficacy.

Please don't to leave it to outsiders who have a superficial understanding of the history. I meant to ask you, did the 3.5 hour lecture include a explanation of where the prayer you mentioned in your post #59 came from?

Outsiders were not changing the ritual within Buddhism. They were borrowing elements of Buddhism to put into practice in their own religion. What the ritual was, meant, and so forth within Buddhism is unchanged. How individuals borrowing some element of Buddhism threatens Buddhism is beyond me.

And no, he did not explain where it came from, but rather what it meant.

Who would you include among your contemporaries that I can look up in Google Scholar?

What would you like specifically- stuff on conflict theory, cognition and meaning, etc.? Stuff on ritual itself will be a hodge-podge, as you're going to find people operating out of a wide range of theoretical foundations.

I am primarily interested in (and operate out of) conflict theory, postmodernism, Marxism and other theories that accommodate the conflict, diversity and so forth that I see in my own society (which is also my geographic study area).

I looked at James' "Varieties of Religious Experience" and found very little on the subject of ritual. One might get the impression that they are unrelated.

How is ritual unrelated to the experiences of those practicing it? :confused:

That reminds me, what ritual was Paul engaged in when he had an experience on his way to Damascus?

All religious/spiritual experience is not related to ritual. I fail to see the point. Help, please.

A "Do it Yourself" approach to religion is outside the parameters of organized religion (Beckford &Walliss, 2006) . That's why a "Do it yourself" approach has an arbitrary quality to it. It is fundamentally different from magico-religious institutions that are said to have "deep structures" which endure over time.

These deep structures, however, say nothing of the conflict, changes, and diversity that occurs in actual practitioners. Again, the ideal vs. the real.

And as I personally am not a pracitioner that is within a particular "organized" religion but rather a mystic that draws from several religions, I suppose you could say I'm a fan of the DIY approach if one is serious about it. It may be "arbitrary" but within it, I am free. I value my liberty and my capacity to reflect on my own experience and studies, and to decide for myself if a particular concept, practice, and so on is beneficial.

Liturgical practices last hundreds of years without any substantive changes. Having people plug in their own images and concepts into existing ritual is to collapse the distinction between private experience and formal/public enactment of commitment to conventions and beliefs and the interests of the community.

That's an interesting idea, but I still fail to see how borrowing elements from a tradition threatens the integrity of a ritual within that tradition.

Presumably, the Buddhists were following the ritual exactly and understood its meaning (at least they would, according to your views on collective identity and unchanging meaning) so... what difference does it make what I thought as a Druid? Or my aunt as a New Thought person? Or her husband as a Jew? Is there some magical way that my changes within my own head to this ritual affect the Buddhists and Buddhism in general? How does my visualizing Christ rather than Amitabha Buddha affect Buddhists?

It just all seems rather illogical to me. :confused:

Well, of course, but differences in their reactions don't necessarily affect the rituals themselves.

And how does the differences in visualization and so forth in my own head affect the Buddhists' ritual itself?

Religious ritual is not supposed to be creative and open-ended.

That depends on the religion. Ritual in many Pagan traditions and quite a few indigenous traditions is supposed to be creative and open-ended.
 
It's supposed to be followed religiously, which would explain why it is described as "stereotyped" and "repetitive." A ritual is repeated over and over again to demonstrate its constancy over time and to counteract "drift" due to the individual differences in response.

Ritual is not necessarily repeated simply for these reasons. Many rituals, for example, are calendrical and repeat by virtue of their tie to particular events. Remember that depending on the religion, there is latitude in how much a ritual is exactly the same each time versus stereotyped (which are common elements and themes which may or may not be exactly the same).

For example, there is a tremendous amount of diversity in the exact construct of Druidic rituals, even within a single Order. These rituals also generally change year to year and are re-written with new poetry, prose, symbolic items and so forth that are meaningful to the people at that time. However, there are consistent themes that bind each year's ritual year together.

My point is that while I cannot claim to speak for Buddhism and how it approaches ritual, it is inaccurate to assume that all religions operate the same when it comes to creating ritual and its meaning.

Rituals themselves actually don't change much, and if they do, that doesn't mean they weren't intended to be invariant.

Religion in general tends to be "intended to be invariant." As its generally tied to power structures in society as a whole, that makes sense. I don't necessarily view invariance and the squelching of diversity, conflict, and challenge as a good thing.

Rituals are rooted in a desire to obtain certainty in an ambiguous world.

Again, far too broad of a statement. Some rituals are so, and some are not. Most of my own rituals are rooted in a desire to become free from my conditioning and more comfortable with paradox and ambiguity. I know I'm not alone in this.

The changes are likely be refinements with a clear theological rationale.

Again, you seem to support ideas of religious authority and power and restrictions on individual freedom and challenge. I don't.

So really, within your own argument, it is more that you do not believe the Dalai Lama has the authority to legitimately change ritual.

My argument is that anyone has the authority to change ritual, and people do it all the time. Religion is one stage on which contests of power are played and arguments about authority are heard. I have no sacred cows when it comes to ritual and am rather an anarchist about the whole thing.

We simply have fundamentally different values regarding ritual. You seem to value constancy, invariance, and legitimacy. I value individual freedom, diversity, and conflict.

It totally ignores the fact that significant changes made to rituals in the world of magico-religious institutions are not idiosyncratic or dependent on how any one individual thinks or feels about it. The most recent changes in Catholic liturgy are the result of 15 years of zealous argumentation.
Liturgy changes for U.S. Catholics

Yes, but that was changing the liturgy itself for Catholics.

The Dalai Lama did not change the liturgy or ritual for Buddhists. He simply said it was OK and even beneficial for non-Buddhists to borrow elements of it and incorporate it into their own tradition if they wished.

I think there is a difference.

I'm not sure we can say that the magical formula that guides druidic ritual was intended to be modified. In witchcraft and animistic religions, we find that spells and prayers are specifically written in lead curse tablets to give them "unalterable permanence" (Fitz Graf, 1997).

Witchcraft, animism, and Druidry are not uniform single practices, nor are they specifically written in any particular way. Each of those encompasses a wide diversity of traditions.

Fritz Graf was (a) referring to a particular time (5th C BC to 3rd C AD), (b) was referring specifically to Graeco-Roman data, (c) was therefore not qualified in data to make any generalizations about witchcraft, magic, or animism (and animism has little specifically to do with spells or magic anyway), and (d) has been criticized for taking his analysis past what was grounded in data.

Modern Druidry tends to emphasize Bardic skill in ritual, and thus is rather fluid, allowing the group to dynamically create the poetry, music, and so forth used in each ritual. This doesn't mean there are no elements that are found in most ritual, but it means they are different for every grove (the equivalent of a coven) and that they change over time.

As to the original Druids, we know little about them as it was an oral tradition and everything we have has been altered through time, mostly by its contact with Christianity and the Western mystery traditions.

My point is merely this: do we honor the intention underlying a Buddhist ritual and really study what it's about or do we just kind of riff on it to come up with some new variation of "Do it yourself" religion"?

In my own case, I did both. I studied Buddhism in college and continued to read in it over the years. But I am not Buddhist, so I did change elements of the visualization and words to accommodate my spirituality honestly.

My point is this: I have no right to tell another person what they should do in this case, nor do I have the right to tell the Dalai Lama what he should be doing. I only have the right to determine what is right for my own spiritual journey. I respect the capacity of individuals to make their own decisions, so long as it does not harm another person and their rights.

I fail to see how the Dalai Lama or others in this case harmed another person or his/her rights, so I don't think it is my place to make a judgment.
 
They were borrowing elements of Buddhism to put into practice in their own religion.
It seems you have changed the story. In the OP you state that participants were encouraged to modify "the interior visualizations" associated with the Buddhist vow.

What the ritual was, meant, and so forth within Buddhism is unchanged.
That is objectively true. But in light of your emphasis on the personal meaning of ritual and your mention of the fact that people were encouraged to "modify the interior visualizations" associated with the Buddhist original vow (your words from the OP), I was talking about how an individual participant's own experience and interpretation of the vow/ritual were affected by that modification.

So really, within your own argument, it is more that you do not believe the Dalai Lama has the authority to legitimately change ritual.
My concern is more practical than that. It is a procedural issue that arises when the original ritual does not speak to someone, for which the suggested fix is to "alter the interior visualizations to fit with their own religious tradition" (your words).

When someone plugs in interior visualizations that have nothing to do with the original context, the implication is that the original context doesn't matter. Obviously, it also implies that the ritual's original content doesn't matter. So the end result is a customized ritual that is disconnected from the tradition and, to some unpredictable degree, emptied of its original content. The implication is obvious: the person is not really learning anything new about Buddhism, they are changing it around so that it resembles something they know instead of seeing an opportunity to think outside the box.

The situation is complicated by having been given permission to do "Do it yourself" religion" that combines elements from different religions without any clear rationale. For example, someone might substitute Jesus for Amitabha Buddha without actually giving much thought to how different they are.

Your have emphasized individual differences in experience and suggest that they might be more important than the faith tradition itself. In the context of an established ritual, this is kind of like a programmer saying to themselves "Gosh, I really feel like modifying a Fortran program even though I only know C++. Gee, I don't really feel like going back to school to learn Fortran. Shucks..... I think I'll be an eclectic free thinker today and do my thing. I'll change the Fortran program around as though I'm programming with C++. How's this for brilliant!" Well, it might be an interesting exercise in creativity, but do you think the program will even run?

It just all seems rather illogical to me.
Indeed, totally illogical.

What would you like specifically- stuff on conflict theory, cognition and meaning, etc.?
My position has been that rituals embody sacred messages which are pretty much by definition "invariant." As stated in my most recent post, I also believe that the consistency of ritual is in the service of ensuring invariance. You seemed to disagree with this view. I'm interested in the names of contemporary anthropologists who dispute the view and offer an alternative view on the importance of permanence and consistency in ritual.

Fritz Graf was (a) referring to a particular time (5th C BC to 3rd C AD), (b) was referring specifically to Graeco-Roman data, (c) was therefore not qualified in data to make any generalizations about witchcraft, magic, or animism
You mean there was no witchcraft or magic or animism between 5th C BC and 3rd C AD?

I'm out of time. Would you answer the question: did the 3.5 hour lecture include a explanation of where the prayer you mentioned in your post #59 came from?

Also, where do I find William James' discussion of "the high diversity of practitioners' experience and understanding of the message and meaning of ritual"? His Varieties book is available online. Thanks.
 
Actually, he requested that non-Buddhists not take the vows, but rather do what I did (i.e., vow something similar in one's own faith tradition). He also said if you were not vegetarian, you could not take the vows.


This is a little confusing. H.H. himself is not a vegetarian nor is it a part of any vows,
most people simply drift that direction on their own over time.
 
It seems you have changed the story. In the OP you state that participants were encouraged to modify "the interior visualizations" associated with the Buddhist vow.

Non-Buddhists were encouraged to do so, thus they were borrowing a Buddhist ritual structure and, through modification, making it non-Buddhist for themselves.

This does not change the Buddhist ritual itself for Buddhists.

My concern is more practical than that. It is a procedural issue that arises when the original ritual does not speak to someone, for which the suggested fix is to "alter the interior visualizations to fit with their own religious tradition" (your words).

What is your concern? Why is someone else's ritual behavior and choice your concern at all? This is what I am failing to understand.

And as an aside, the original ritual can speak to someone even if they are not Buddhist. It certainly spoke to me. But that does not make it in its original form, as a Buddhist ritual, appropriate for a non-Buddhist. This is why one can take the elements that speak to one and modify the elements that do not. That is the essence of what happens in any cultural borrowing.

When someone plugs in interior visualizations that have nothing to do with the original context, the implication is that the original context doesn't matter. Obviously, it also implies that the ritual's original content doesn't matter.

I entirely disagree. Perhaps what you see as implications, stemming from your own perspective and worldview, are not the same as what I see.

Just because one borrows something from another religious culture does not mean one believes the original context or content doesn't matter.

So the end result is a customized ritual that is disconnected from the tradition and, to some unpredictable degree, emptied of its original content. The implication is obvious: the person is not really learning anything new about Buddhism, they are changing it around so that it resembles something they know instead of seeing an opportunity to think outside the box.

That depends on how and why the ritual is modified. Arguably, if one just converts to Buddhism and does the ritual exactly as it is, that isn't thinking outside the box either. Thinking outside the box is not something that happens by virtue of how a ritual is done, but rather what the individual practitioner is thinking. As this is inherently diverse and no one can tell what another person is thinking without asking them individually, it is inaccurate to say that anyone who modifies a ritual is necessarily not learning anything new and not escaping the box.

The situation is complicated by having been given permission to do "Do it yourself" religion" that combines elements from different religions without any clear rationale. For example, someone might substitute Jesus for Amitabha Buddha without actually giving much thought to how different they are.

But then, another person might do it having given quite a bit of thought to the matter.

Again, you seem to assume that everyone will be the worst case scenario, and further, that it is somehow one person's business to tell another person what they should be thinking and doing. Whether or not someone receives a benefit, my point is that doing such a ritual is not going to harm them or another being, so why would it be my business to be concerned with another person's thoughts and choices in the matter?

Your have emphasized individual differences in experience and suggest that they might be more important than the faith tradition itself. In the context of an established ritual, this is kind of like a programmer saying to themselves "Gosh, I really feel like modifying a Fortran program even though I only know C++. Gee, I don't really feel like going back to school to learn Fortran. Shucks..... I think I'll be an eclectic free thinker today and do my thing. I'll change the Fortran program around as though I'm programming with C++. How's this for brilliant!" Well, it might be an interesting exercise in creativity, but do you think the program will even run?

I think that individual differences are as important for understanding any religion as the faith tradition itself. The faith tradition is, after all, composed of a lot of individuals over time.

And I do not think religion or ritual is much like computer programming. That seems to suppose ritual is somehow limited within a broader mechanism, and it simply isn't, except by what human creativity can come up with. I don't think it's a very apt analogy, as the broader systems within which each runs are not very equivalent.

My position has been that rituals embody sacred messages which are pretty much by definition "invariant." As stated in my most recent post, I also believe that the consistency of ritual is in the service of ensuring invariance. You seemed to disagree with this view. I'm interested in the names of contemporary anthropologists who dispute the view and offer an alternative view on the importance of permanence and consistency in ritual.

You're already framing it in a way that biases the results, as you wish for anthropologists who offer alternative views on the "importance of permanence." My point is that ritual and religion are not permanent. They change. If you have any interest in learning about this, I'll happily pull various references, both contemporary and not. If you insist only on your own position, I'm afraid I have little interest in investing my time in this. I do, after all, have other stuff I do.

I have not argued that rituals don't have doctrinally approved messages, or that religious institutitions do not often seek to stabilize their power through ritual. I have discussed how this interacts with conflict, change, and diversity rather extensively, as well as my position as a spiritual practitioner about why I value this conflict and diversity over permanence... as well as what relevance this has to the current topic.

You fail to actually engage any of these points, and I'm disinterested in being repetitive.

You mean there was no witchcraft or magic or animism between 5th C BC and 3rd C AD?

I mean that Graeco-Roman magic from 5th C BCE to 3rd C AD is not a representative sample sufficient to make any generalizations about witchcraft or magic in general. Furthermore, such lead tablets are entirely irrelevant to studies of animism, as they were associated with civilizations that had polytheism and magic (not animism).

I'm out of time. Would you answer the question: did the 3.5 hour lecture include a explanation of where the prayer you mentioned in your post #59 came from?

I already answered that. The answer is above.

Also, where do I find William James' discussion of "the high diversity of practitioners' experience and understanding of the message and meaning of ritual"? His Varieties book is available online. Thanks.

This is quite elementary. Ritual is an important part of religion. Diversity in practitioners' religious experience relates, therefore, to how they experience the various attributes of religion, one of which is ritual.

I am happy to engage in discussing this if it is really of interest to you. However, you mostly have skimmed through my already extensive comments and reiterated points I already discussed in some detail. I have limited time as well and I don't wish to waste it in fruitless exchange in which the bulk of my questions and comments are ignored. I feel as though my questions to you go unanswered, and I am asked for information that would take some time to compile and type, however, what I have already given is treated as irrelevant and not worth discussing. That sort of conversation is one-sided and not very appealing to me. I apologize in advance if it was merely a lack of time that made it seem this way, as of course discussing online is a poor medium for conversation.
 
Hi Kim,

I already answered that. The answer is above.
This is what I am looking for:

Who is the author of the prayer?

What was the original source?

When was the prayer first written?

I think if we stick to facts, we can get somewhere.
 
depending on the religion, there is latitude in how much a ritual is exactly the same each time
You are debating the generality of the position, and that's fine, but the issue of generality does not really contradict the position, nor does it disprove it.

More than likely, if it's a well-established ritual, it will be almost identical whenever it is enacted . Practically speaking, if the underlying sacred message is invariant, there will be only so many possible variations. Consider the Jewish Shema prayer, which is considered to be perhaps the most important Judaic prayer "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One." It's a simple affirmation of monotheistic belief in the form of a highly repeatable phrase.

rituals and their meanings must accommodate the broader changes if they are to retain efficacy.
What would you suggest as a way to ensure the contemporary efficacy of the Judaic Shema prayer?

Again, you seem to support ideas of religious authority and power and restrictions on individual freedom and challenge.
No, I was merely suggesting that if liturgical changes are made, they should ideally be meaningful changes. My thought was that one easy to ensure meaningful changes is to have them be made by people who are thoroughly familiar with the faith tradition to which the ritual belongs and the history of the ritual that's being considered for modification (rather than leaving it to outsiders who are may have had all of 5 minutes to think about how they were going to change a prayer that is 1200 years old by substituting imagery derived from own religious tradition. The fact that the changes won't be permanent is beside the point. The issue if whether the ritual is being modified in any kind of meaningful way for that individual.

My argument is that anyone has the authority to change ritual, and people do it all the time.
Ok, Let's do a quick role play for the prayer you cite in your post #59 that people were apparently encouraged to redo so as to make it more like something resembling their own tradition. Let's see how much "fluidity" there is based on how easy it is to adapt the Buddhist to one's own traditions.

The statements in question form are rhetorical in the sense that I don't expect anyone to a answer them because there are entire books dealing with any one the issues. So here we go:

I shall always go for refuge
To the Buddha


What is it to "take refuge" and what is "the Buddha"?
Was the historical Buddha a divine personality?
Is he like Jesus? Is he the Heavenly Father or the Holy Spirit?
Is the Buddha a deity? Or is he like the Tao, the supreme recycler of everything?

Does the Buddha control my spiritual destiny? Does he judge my actions?
Is there a concept of sin in Buddhism?

Does the Buddha take an interest in my salvation and grant Grace?
Is he a personal G-d or impersonal? Does he reveal himself in scripture?
Does he reveal himself in nature? Does he live in heaven?

Is the Dalai Lama a "living Buddha"? If so, the Buddha can't be in Heaven, right?

If the Buddha does not resemble my ideas of deities and divine personalities,
how does that affect my ability to derive benefit from the ritual and the vow
which invokes the Buddha?

I shall always go for refuge To the Dharma


What is the Christian equivalent of Dharma? The Hindus use the term dharma, too.
Their idea of it actually seems very inclusive. I saw a Buddhist's definition an
internet discussion forum and I really could not agree with it even though
a self-identified Buddhist said it.

Maybe I should go with the Hindu idea? Or do you think I should go with the
Buddhist idea? But there's more than one kind of Buddhism. So which sect's
definition of Dharma do go with? Does it matter? If not, why doesn't it matter?

The ritual is being officiated by a Tibetan Buddhist. Do I go with a Tibetan view
of Dharma? What is the Tibetan view of Dharma? Who do I talk to about this?
Should I find a teacher or just fake my way through the ritual?

Until I reach full enlightenment.

What is "Enlightenment"? Which Buddhist school describes it best?
Which is a valid understanding of what Enlightenment is?

The ritual is being officiated by a Tibetan Buddhist. Do I go with a Tibetan
view of "Enlightenment"? What is the Tibetan view?

How will I know when I'm enlightened ? How will I know I'm ready for Tantra?
Tantra is Tibetan Buddhist. Can a nonTibetan teacher teach me Tantra?
Can a nonTibetan teacher teach me how to become enlightened so that I can do Tantra?

I understand one of the Initiation rituals the Dalai Lama is doing here is Tantra.
Where do I find a definition of Tantra?

As a Tibetan, is the Dalai Lama qualified to do a Pure Land ritual dealing with
the Amitabha Buddha? Was the Amitabha Buddha a real person? Is he a deity?
Is he the same as "the Buddha"? How is he different? Was Prince Siddhartha
Gautama
a real person?

Do I chant the name 'Amitabha Buddha' or is it enough to have faith in him
to rid me of all my bad karma? Why should I worry about getting rid of
bad karma when the forgiveness of sins was accomplished already?

What is the relationship between Pure land and Tibetan Buddhism?
Can you recommend a teacher in my area who knows Pure land and
Tibetan teachings.

What is the effect of drinking drinking water being blessed for the Dalai Lama's
Amitabha Initiation? How much longer can I expect to live because I drank some?

The Dalai Lama also does a Medicine Buddha initiation (at the same event).
I'm interested. Is that for Buddhists only?

I looked at the Medicine Buddha mantra, which had something about
conquering the cycle of birth death. What is the Christian equivalent?
I'm into Ayurvedic herbology. Does that help me with Medicine Buddha practice?

Why the Amitabha and Medicine Buddha initiations and not something from
a White Tara practice?

Am I being rude by asking too many questions? Am I asking the right questions?
What questions should I be asking? Should I ask no questions and just pretend
to be a good-natured sympathizer even though there are so many ambiguities?

There was some discussion of (mystical interior experience) during the 3.5 hour lecture preceding the initiation.
Unless the remaining time for lecture was directly linked to the ritual, that discussion on mystical interior experience would have left less time to talk about the meaning of the rituals and the implications of modifying them to turn them into something resembling one's own tradition.

Anyway, as you can see, I was only four lines into the vow and there were many questions, any one of which could easily require 3 hours of attention, if not several years of research. In fact, whole books have been devoted to some of these issues. I seriously doubt a 3 hour lecture would have answered even half of my questions, all of which are totally reasonable.
 
I am asked for information that would take some time to compile and type
I would take a page number as an answer for my question about William James. As for the Buddhist vow, how much typing would it take to address the specifics about where it came from (the author name and approximate date of the vow)?

I am happy to engage in discussing this if it is really of interest to you.
I suggest we start at the top:

thousands upon thousands of people knelt and vowed to serve all sentient beings.
What does Buddhism say about what it means to serve all sentient beings? What does that look like? What are specific forms of service?
 
Netti, all of the questions that you yourself would ask in modifiying (or not) such a ritual are quite interesting, but I fail to see what benefit would come to either of us in me answering your questions.

Some of them are questions about the tenets of Buddhism, history, and so forth, the answers of which are enumerated in many textbooks and online resources. I don't understand how me taking time to write them all down within this thread helps either of us. Presumably, you have already studied Buddhism (at least, it seems that you have from past conversations) and so have I, so why bother? If someone asked me these questions who had never studied Buddhism at all, I'd refer them to some introductory textbooks. It isn't my job to make up for another person's lack of wishing to invest personal time.

As for the questions that relate Buddhist concepts and practices to other faith traditions (i.e., Jesus and Amitabha Buddha, etc.)- surely, if these questions were a meaningful exercise to you, you would do it for yourself. I worked out the answers to many of them over the years since I began to study Buddhism and compare it to my own spiritual experience, but the answers I came to are not necessarily going to be relevant to your journey or to any other person's. When one compares religions in terms of spiritual experience and personal development (in contrast to an academic comparison), one's analysis is going to be highly personal and individual. One can also do an academic comparison, but my whole interest and point in this thread has been about the experience of spirituality, not the academic study of religion.

My point is that each individual is responsible for their own journey and creating, studying, understanding their own meanings of any religion(s) they practice or from which they borrow. I am responsible for my journey and you are responsible for yours, and no amount of what is meaningful to me will necessarily make it meaningful to you, whether it is a practice I developed today or something I pulled from a religion that has been in existence thousands of years.

(And as for William James, if you cannot see the connection between his entire thesis and work, and its relevance for individuals' engagement with ritual, I really don't know what to offer you. It is not that he says something on a particular page, but rather that his entire work and thesis has relevance for what we're discussing.)

Finally,
No, I was merely suggesting that if liturgical changes are made, they should ideally be meaningful changes. My thought was that one easy to ensure meaningful changes is to have them be made by people who are thoroughly familiar with the faith tradition to which the ritual belongs and the history of the ritual that's being considered for modification (rather than leaving it to outsiders who are may have had all of 5 minutes to think about how they were going to change a prayer that is 1200 years old by substituting imagery derived from own religious tradition. The fact that the changes won't be permanent is beside the point. The issue if whether the ritual is being modified in any kind of meaningful way for that individual.

So if I abdicate responsibility for my own study and thought, and simply do whatever another person (who is more familiar with the tradition) suggests, then this is more meaningful to me than my own attempt to do this for myself?

Why would another person's creation of meaningful change be meaningful to me?

There seems to be some assumption here that there are particular meaningful changes out there that would be meaningful to everyone equally, and that these are only determined by people who have a certain level of expertise in a particular tradition.

That is the heart of what I am saying... Why think that one person can decide what creates meaning for another person?

How could a Buddhist create meaningful changes for a Christian? The meaning in the Buddhist ritual, if taken as a personal spiritual experience and not as an academic study, will come from an integration of the individual's Christian background and their relating this to the Buddhist concept, practice, etc. While this would certainly be enhanced by the Christian studying Buddhism academically (so as to understand the historical, linguistic, and cultural contexts), it could not be done simply by having a Buddhist tell the Christian what to do and what it means. What it will mean personally for the Christian, as a spiritual experience, can only be felt and known by the individual herself/himself.
 
However, the Dalai Lama did direct the non-Buddhists to think about these things in the terms of their own religion.
So it seems. Here's the Tibetan Altar blog description of the Long Beach event:
During the empowerment, he paused proceedings to explain, "If you are not Buddhist, for example if you are Christian, you don't have to use Buddhist visualizations. You can visualize the object of your faith, and you can make a promise that you will respect them, and follow their teachings, and that you want to contribute to humanity by becoming a helpful human. If you cannot help, then at least do no harm. "
Digital Tibetan Buddhist Altar: Dalai Lama In Long Beach, Part One

That's a little different from Kim's account. It seems the idea was to encourage people to affirm their commitment to their existing religion ("you can make a promise that you will respect them, and follow their teachings"). Based on the blogger's report, the Dalai Lama did not encourage "borrowing" from another religion.


There seems to be some assumption here that there are particular meaningful changes out there that would be meaningful to everyone equally, and that these are only determined by people who have a certain level of expertise in a particular tradition.
I have no idea who you are addressing with this comment. You seem to be having a conversation with someone who has not even posted on this thread! :)

I don't understand how me taking time to write them all down within this thread helps either of us.
In my post I stated that I did not expect you to answer my questions. Not sure why you feel a need to mention them. (Unless you read my post, you'd miss me saying I was just making a point.)

I agree with all your comments about self-responsibility except that I believe/know that we are not totally responsible when we depend on a divine fellowship. Depending on how you look at it, it's all G-d's doing. We just get the honor of being grateful. <Praise>
 
That's a little different from Kim's account. It seems the idea was to encourage people to affirm their commitment to their existing religion ("you can make a promise that you will respect them, and follow their teachings"). Based on the blogger's report, the Dalai Lama did not encourage "borrowing" from another religion.

I think a lot of this is misunderstanding what I was trying to say, apparently. My own perception is that what the Dalai Lama did was to encourage people to use their own faith tradition as a vehicle of committing to serve other beings, and at a minimum, committing to not harming other beings. Depending on one's faith tradition, doing this would be borrowing some concepts from Buddhism and integrating them with one's own faith. Hence, he encouraged Christians to visualize things that made sense to them rather than the Amitabha Buddha.

It was all left rather open-ended for non-Buddhists to interpret how to integrate the proceedings with their own faith tradition. I appreciated that.

I have no idea who you are addressing with this comment. You seem to be having a conversation with someone who has not even posted on this thread! :)

Your comment, the most relevant parts of which I bolded, indicated to me that you thought one person could make changes that are meaningful to another.

I obviously misunderstood what you were trying to say, and am now a bit confused as to what it was.

In my post I stated that I did not expect you to answer my questions. Not sure why you feel a need to mention them. (Unless you read my post, you'd miss me saying I was just making a point.)

Sorry- I must have missed that bit. I tried to read thoroughly, but to be honest, I've been dealing with some chronic pain the last few days and sometimes I miss things. :eek:

But of course, the questions do demonstrate the same trajectory that I have had over the years- of trying to understand how various religions do or do not relate to my own spiritual journey (and how).

I agree with all your comments about self-responsibility except that I believe/know that we are not totally responsible when we depend on a divine fellowship. Depending on how you look at it, it's all G-d's doing. We just get the honor of being grateful. <Praise>

I think we agree on that, though my vague conceptualization of God allows both free will and God as the substrate for all beingness, so it's sort of a both/and- personal responsibility, but ultimately I only exist in/through/with God.

I'll join you in praise and gratitude! :D
 
Path,
I've been reading this thread with some concise amazement....... I for one understand you and the sentiment coming through serves well the occasion of the day in your unifying thoughtfull compassion. More than words this is the crux, what is there to justify when love flows. It is true, faith is always a personal translation, when people of the many become one in unity and a new equilibrium formed, there is the glory. Sounded like a wonderful day.

- c -
 
Reading this there is also the glory of what was said and what was heard.

I mean often someone may get offended by what someone says when the initiator had no intent but it was taken wrongly... something you can't always know whose fault this is because you often hear it third hand but even when you are there you don't have the preconcieved notions of either party.

And then there is this...maybe one thing was said and another heard. Now we can choose to bask in the glory of what was heard, and the results, and the joy received or we can choose to tear apart the words...

I've often read a book and was a little confused about what I was reading and then read one page and it all came together...but rereading that page there was nothing on it to define what brought it all together, what exactly provided that moment of enlightenment.

It seems to me this is the way it happens, it isn't just what was said, or just how it was said, or where you were, or who you were with but a culmination of all those things interspersed with your history, your knowledge, your experience and your decision to be open at that moment...they all come together for something glorious, and when you try to explain it to others it falls on deaf ears.

Ever gone crabbin? You pull up one crab and toss him in the basket and lickely split the little bugger is up over the side and clappin its claws at ya from the bottom of the boat. But if you toss two in there...once one tries to escape (reality) and obtain freedom (enlightenment) the other grabs a hold and says 'oh no ya don't, misery loves company stay right here with me.

Just observations....different folks will use the culmination of their experience and obtain different thoughts and responses... love ya all!
 
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