Interfaith Practice and the Dalai Lama

Much as I greatly respect and esteem the Dalai Lama and what Sheng-yen, Litt.D. had to say about mutual respect for religions without necessity of changing them... I do not think it is anyone's proper position or authority to declare there are enough religions.

I fail to see why anyone would see it fitting to put limitations on others' religious practices, including creativity. There are never "enough" religions or cultures, in my opinion. Humans and societies change over time, they are creative, and new things emerge. I think that is healthy and we should not attempt to freeze any aspect of human diversity.
 
I do not think it is anyone's proper position or authority to declare there are enough religions..
Namaste Poo, and I don't think either did.
"If you believe that all religions are good, should we establish a syncretic religion?" He replied: "No, there are already enough religions in the world."

What he meant was that, since ancient times, humanity's religions have always been diverse. Each has its own beauty. Each has its own virtue. Each has its own truth.

There is no need to blend them.
It seems to me that the response is directly related to the question and can't really be extropolated to refer to something else, and the analysis indicates something that I tend to agree with.

I believe all religions are based upon an understanding that one or more people had during their moments of clarity, however each seem to fit that time and place and people. Not to say they don't stand the test of time but that their potential demographic is always limited. ie you can please osme of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.

Now I'm often thought to be saying this religion is right or wrong but what I'm really trying to express is that this or that belief are not right for ME at this point in time...ie I am not in that demographic.

So what I hear in the response and interpretation is that there is no need for some merger, the blending of beliefs. I don't interpret it to say that some new belief or understanding that surfaces that has components of various beliefs would be out of the question. ie I don't see some organic compilation...but possibly a contemplation/understanding that grows seperately yet could be deciphered by someone to have been created the other way around....simply because so much in the way of belief has common threads and truth encased within.
 
Re: similar is not the same

(I)in any practice, whether mantra recitations, appealing to divine personalities, or committing oneself to a spiritual path, I would offer that any person might have a meaningful result... whether or not this is a doctrinally correct one, what was intended by others, or what is similar to another person's..... Just look at the variety within Christianity!
My immediate reaction: Yes, Christianity has various subsets, but that doesn't mean there's isn't substantial overlap in beliefs and practices. Even where practices differ (e.g., grape juice versus blessed wine), at least there's some continuity for some basic principles and precepts that you can't expect to find when you compare Christian and Buddhist practices because Christian/ Buddhist theologies and philosophies of human nature are too different.


(A)t the same time, dissimilarity in interior meaning does not make a single practice any less meaningful to any of those who partake in it.
At some point, resistance to tradition-dependency could become your master narrative to the exclusion of all religious belief systems. Maybe there is already no value in trying or observing any known religious rituals because the context of use and the surrounding values and ideologies don't matter to someone who aspires to phenomenological purity.

At some point, as a result of your attempt to avoid doctrinal absolutism, your relativising tendencies will have become absolute.
 
Re: similar is not the same

My immediate reaction: Yes, Christianity has various subsets, but that doesn't mean there's isn't substantial overlap in beliefs and practices. Even where practices differ (e.g., grape juice versus blessed wine), at least there's some continuity for some basic principles and precepts that you can't expect to find when you compare Christian and Buddhist practices because Christian/ Buddhist theologies and philosophies of human nature are too different.

I've heard many Quakers say they feel they have more in common with Buddhism (especially Zen) than most denominations of Christianity.

If one looks at the history and contemporary reality of Christianity, it is impossible to ignore that the differences between sects can be very, very great- not only in practice but also in theology and philosophy of human nature. If one looks at why various sects and theologians have been labeled heretical, one will see a very great variety in interpretations of Christ's message and teachings, of human nature, of God, and so on. Aside from holding Christ to be very significant, there are so many differences between say, fundamentalist dominionist churches, Quaker meetings, Catholic churches, and Mormon temples that it is tempting to categorize them as entirely different religions, despite a common point of origin... just as Islam and Christianity have common points of origin in Judaism and some stuff in common, but are very distinct.

At some point, resistance to tradition-dependency could become your master narrative to the exclusion of all religious belief systems.

The way I see it, my spiritual path is one of balance between study of and respect for traditions, while honoring personal experience and individual creativity.

The nice thing is that there ar "traditions" that allow this without problems- Paganism is one of them.

It is a mistake to think that because some religions and sects do not value and incorporate individuality, creativity, and change, that others will not. There is room in religion for traditions that value and encourage doubt, questioning authority and tradition, honoring personal experience and revelation, and so forth.

Maybe there is already no value in trying or observing any known religious rituals because the context of use and the surrounding values and ideologies don't matter to someone who aspires to phenomenological purity.

Again, dichotomous thinking. A person does not have to be wholly this or wholly that. One can study context of use and surrounding values and ideologies without believing that it means one should be experiencing these things, that these things should be immutable, and so on. And studying context and authority-sanctioned meaning does not mean we have to kid ourselves that everyone within said tradition is actually doing, thinking, and feeling the same things.

At some point, as a result of your attempt to avoid doctrinal absolutism, your relativising tendencies will have become absolute.

This assumes an either/or line of thinking to which I do not ascribe.

I am comfortable bouncing around in the gray.
 
Re: similar is not the same

If one looks at the history and contemporary reality of Christianity, it is impossible to ignore that the differences between sects can be very, very great- not only in practice but also in theology and philosophy of human nature. If one looks at why various sects and theologians have been labeled heretical, one will see a very great variety in interpretations of Christ's message and teachings, of human nature, of God, and so on. Aside from holding Christ to be very significant, there are so many differences between say, fundamentalist dominionist churches, Quaker meetings, Catholic churches, and Mormon temples that it is tempting to categorize them as entirely different religions, despite a common point of origin... just as Islam and Christianity have common points of origin in Judaism and some stuff in common, but are very distinct.
Here you are in effect arguing my point of view. The lack of consensus even among religions that have common point of origin underscores the need to exercise great care when attempting to blend faith traditions.

It is a mistake to think that because some religions and sects do not value and incorporate individuality, creativity, and change, that others will not. There is room in religion for traditions that value and encourage doubt, questioning authority and tradition, honoring personal experience and revelation, and so forth.
Mary Frolich notes that "spiritual living does not necessarily mean adherence to a defined religious or spiritual tradition. It does mean, however, that one attends with as much authenticity as one can muster to the truth of one's own experience." This makes good sense. However, I'd add a caution in question form: when does this kind of phenomenology turn into solipsism?

If I'm doing an established religious ritual, the truth of my experience should be informed by the religion from which the ritual derives because it is in direct interest of meaningfulness for me to do so. By your admission, even among Christian denominations differences can be "very, very great." Why wouldn't we expect transcultural (East/West) differences to be even greater and that much harder to reconcile? Like I said, by noting the many differences among related religions you are in effect supporting my position.

A person does not have to be wholly this or wholly that.
I'd frame the issue a little differently: does it make sense to substitute a part for a whole? For the sake of argument, let's say I agree for a moment that one does not necessarily have to accept a given faith tradition in its entirety in order to have a meaningful experience involving some isolated part of it. Let's say I go with something like a Buddhist vow of some kind. If I perform this vow, I should make an effort to do it in a way that is consistent with the tradition and the surrounding values. For starters, I'd find out where the vow came from and I explore the historical antecedents of its development. Further, I'd try to look for a semiotic gestalt. That is, I'd look at the ritual in a broader context of semiosis or symbolic system, so that I can interact more fully with the meanings that were being communicated by the ritual according to the original context of use. The more I know about it, the better my chances of doing something creative with it.

To stay with the issue of context, I think it is helpful to note that doing one practice may mean that I should be doing others. Consider the Catholic Mass. The Mass is actually a number of practices folded into one service. I'd say it actually makes little sense to do any one of them without doing all of them. I don't believe this is unique to Catholicism For example, the Bodhisattva Vow is part of a larger Mahayana system. In fact, Shantideva's bodhicharyavatara can be seen as an "extended Mahayana liturgy" (Roger Jackson, 2005), with parts that were used in earlier Indian Buddhist rituals and which were later incorporated into Tibetan rites (e.g., the Bodhisattva Vow Ceremony). Btw, it appears that the liturgy for the whole ceremony is over 20 pages long. Does it make sense to read just a few lines?

It may well be the criteria for valid experience is for it to be personally meaningful That's fine, but a ritual's meaning will be directly related to the extent to which I can see the ritual in light of the original intention and context of use. When you accuse me of either/or thinking, it sounds to me like you are arguing for having the flexibility to sample or combine other religions in unsystematic ways that likely will result in significant omissions or oversimplifications.
 
Re: similar is not the same

Here you are in effect arguing my point of view. The lack of consensus even among religions that have common point of origin underscores the need to exercise great care when attempting to blend faith traditions.

It depends on one's purpose. If the purpose is to have a personally meaningful experience, then how one would proceed would depend on one's own learning style, spiritual background, personality, and so forth. If the purpose is to have something that is doctrinally sound, historically logical, or some other set of attributes that might create meaning for a group of people, then the process and constraints could be different.

However, I'd add a caution in question form: when does this kind of phenomenology turn into solipsism?

When one ceases to interact with others and bounce one's own subjective reality off that of other beings and the natural world. That said, we each live in a subjective reality that, while influenced by others, is never fully engaged without some sort of conditioning and individual constraints (as well as the limitations of human cognition).

I think the balance is to be aware of what one does not know.

It is not a mistake, for example, to generate a new syncretic religious ritual that is meaningful for oneself. Validity and meaning of the ritual for the individual is found in his or her own experience. However, it would be a mistake to then assume that such a new syncretic ritual is meaningful and/or valid for others, or to assume that without study of the total religious system and its various contexts, that one has an accurate representation of the original.

If I'm doing an established religious ritual, the truth of my experience should be informed by the religion from which the ritual derives because it is in direct interest of meaningfulness for me to do so.

I think there is a difference between understanding a religion and finding spiritual meaning in religious practice.

By your admission, even among Christian denominations differences can be "very, very great." Why wouldn't we expect transcultural (East/West) differences to be even greater and that much harder to reconcile?

Reconciliation of differences is not necessary for a meaningful experience to occur. In fact, paradox and discomfort therein can create a valid spiritual experience. It all depends on one's motivation- whether to have a single continuous system or whether to explore the spaces in between these single systems through challenge to one's own conditioning and reflection, or perhaps through intuition mystical experience. There are many ways to approach the issue of spiritual development, some of which demand sytems that are (at least on the surface) logically and historically continuous, and some of which demand systems that are syncretic and paradoxical.

I'd frame the issue a little differently: does it make sense to substitute a part for a whole?

I don't think borrowing or syncretism is substitution. It would be a mistake to imagine I am Buddhist or know a lot about Buddhism by virtue of going to a lecture and saying a vow- and this would be the case whether or not I intend to be only Buddhist or be syncretic. In syncretic practice, I am not substituting a part of Buddhism for the whole of Buddhism. Rather, I am taking a part that generates experience, meaning, emotion, or deep reflection and I am using that for spiritual development. This could be through rational dialogue (what is similar/different, how does this challenge or reinforce my beliefs), through intuitive mystical experience (what visions, truths, and so on are spontaneously generated by the ritual practice), through psychological analysis (how do I feel and why?), etc.

Let's say I go with something like a Buddhist vow of some kind. If I perform this vow, I should make an effort to do it in a way that is consistent with the tradition and the surrounding values. For starters, I'd find out where the vow came from and I explore the historical antecedents of its development. Further, I'd try to look for a semiotic gestalt. That is, I'd look at the ritual in a broader context of semiosis or symbolic system, so that I can interact more fully with the meanings that were being communicated by the ritual according to the original context of use. The more I know about it, the better my chances of doing something creative with it.

All this depends, in part, on how you learn and process information. Different people have different learning styles, and this means they approach this issue differently. I suspect that religious ritual is so multi-sensory and multi-layered in order to deal with this diversity of personality and learning styles. In this way, one person might find meaning by delving into historical context, linguistic analysis, and so on, while another may find meaning through body movement and sensory input. I think your approach sounds great and it is one I often have used to study religion, but I think there is plenty of room in spiritual practice for a variety of learning styles and approaches.

It may well be the criteria for valid experience is for it to be personally meaningful That's fine, but a ritual's meaning will be directly related to the extent to which I can see the ritual in light of the original intention and context of use.

I disagree. In terms of its doctrinally approved, institutionally accepted meanings, yes. But in terms of its capacity for personal meaning, no. People can know nothing about another language, culture, and so on and still have an emotional, mental, or spiritual experience from some aspect of it that is meaningful to them. To say otherwise proposes there are no valid forms of communication and transmission except through language (as it relates to religious history and doctrine).

When you accuse me of either/or thinking, it sounds to me like you are arguing for having the flexibility to sample or combine other religions in unsystematic ways that likely will result in significant omissions or oversimplifications.

Again, I think you are concerned with accuracy and I am concerned with meaning (when it comes to syncretism). I am arguing people should do what they wish to do, so long as it doesn't harm others. I am arguing that I cannot generalize about what might be meaningful (or not) for another person, given the differences in our backgrounds, conditioning, personality, ability, and so forth.

Combining religions in unsystematic ways will likely result in omissions and oversimplifications... but it also has the capacity to result in something entirely new that is infused with meaning. Unless the person is studying religion or claiming to speak for a particular tradition, I don't think the omissions and oversimplifications are of much concern. We all omit and oversimplify- this is what humans do in order to relate to the world around us- and this issue in religion is why you have trained clergy and authority figures.

I fail to see how people being unsystematic in their approach to traditions has any capacity to harm themselves or other beings, so I fail to see why I should be concerned.
 
I don't think borrowing or syncretism is substitution.
Syncretism can involve substitution. For example Mayan syncretism has Christian elements that were substituted for Mesoamerican religious beliefs (Tavanti, 2003). Historically, syncretism has had a bad name because some substitutions don't make much religious sense. For example practitioners of the Santeria religion will substitute Catholic saints for the spirits that were featured in the indigenous folk religion. This doesn't make much sense. The syncretism evidently occurred under duress. Orisha devotees kidnapped for slavery held onto their old religion even though they were forced to adopt Christian beliefs.

While one might like to think of them as creative works, syncretisms happen even though they don't make religious sense. You mentioned the Vodun religion (Post #94). That's another syncretic religion that evidently emerged in the context of slavery and forced conversion. You say this is an example of syncretism creating something new. I question that. The Haitians adopted apparently adopted Christian beliefs without actually believing them. How can there be a creative synthesis under those circumstances?

Your description in Post #99 regarding Vodun suggests a phenomena similar to the Santeria religion.
You say "many practitioners understand Catholic saints and ancient spirits to be more or less the same entities by different names." I would not call that a blend. I see that as not indicating a conscious attempt to integrate totally different religious imagery. Incompatible ideas and beliefs simply coexist without being integrated in any meaningful way. General categories are adjusted to include different entities. The logical incompatibilities never get resolved because practitioners don't even question the inconsistencies (see M.A. Clark, 2007: 146). There's no real synthesis and there's no real theological innovation that I can see.

It depends on one's purpose. If the purpose is to have a personally meaningful experience, then how one would proceed would depend on one's own learning style, spiritual background, personality, and so forth.
I would think that attempts at syncretizing at the individual level could run into problems similar to those we can see on a larger scale at the institutional level. I might add that so far into the discussion, we have not seen a single example of the personal or relational benefits of syncretizing at either level of analysis.

If the purpose is to have something that is doctrinally sound, historically logical, or some other set of attributes that might create meaning for a group of people, then the process and constraints could be different.
To my way of thinking, whether a proceeding is done on a doctrinally sound way is less important than whether it's done in a way that sheds light on the sacred message of which it is a symbol. I am by no means encouraging doctrinal accuracy for the sake of conventionality. I am merely suggesting that someone who might otherwise be content to free associate with an existing ritual without knowing much about its original context of use might get more out of it if they had a big picture of where a particular ritual enactment fits into a larger symbolic system. If they had more information, they would probably be able to to deploy a more complete theological vision.

I think there is a difference between understanding a religion and finding spiritual meaning in religious practice.
Like you say, it depends on what the person is trying to accomplish. Unless the idea is just to kind of free associate a little or enjoy sensory impressions, being able to find spiritual meaning in a religious practice or ritual is going to depend on understanding the religion it came from. When someone has studied a religion enough to where they feel they're ready to participate in one of its rituals, it's probably because they know enough about the religion to where it makes sense to do the rituals. For someone who is interested in a high degree of meaningfulness, it may actually make very little sense to focus on a single aspect of a religious proceeding, just as it may make little sense to do any single ritual in isolation without knowing how it's connected to other rituals.

People can know nothing about another language, culture, and so on and still have an emotional, mental, or spiritual experience from some aspect of it that is meaningful to them.
Someone suggested that a person can't be expected to believe in a religious text that they can't adequately comprehend. I don't think you are suggesting that it's enough to look at Greek typography in order to a appreciate the New Testament if one does not know Greek.

Meaningfulness is a matter of degree, isn't it? Doing any one practice may actually require doing others if the one practice is to provide meaningful exposure to the religion as a whole. Consider the Catholic Mass. It's actually a composite of sequenced practices that have been folded into one service. I'd say it's actually of relatively little value to do any one of the practices that appears in the Mass without doing all of them. I'd say it would help a lot if they're all done as originally intended. If any one single component has been reappraised in accordance with one's own learning style, spiritual background, personality, etc., it will be that much harder to learn what it was supposed to mean in relation to the other practices when you get to those.

The parts of the Mass leading up to Communion are intended to prepare the individual to receive the Eucharist. It's hard to see how the different parts of the Mass hang together without going through all parts of the liturgy. The principles being communicated by any one part of the Mass will be that much more meaningful when seen in light of the other parts. I think it might be to learn them all at the same time, rather than piecemeal, in order to avoid confusion. I realize that's not always possible. I'm talking about an ideal state of affairs.

A scattered/fragmented approach would be expected to lead to reduced meaningfulness. Kind of like suggesting that we read a book starting with a few lines from the last page, with no plan to look at the beginning or the middle (as though they're irrelevant). It's hard to make a credible case for knowing what the book is about if you've only read the last page. All I'm saying is: why settle for a part when you need the whole? Taken together, a set of rituals and the liturgy can help clarify underlying doctrine. As compared to being done in isolation, a given ritual is likely to make more sense when it appears in context of supporting liturgy and adjoining rituals.

Again, the issue is comprehensiveness, not doctrinal correctness: Comprehensiveness is directly related to meaningfulness. I'm sure you'd have no trouble finding ethnographic studies of ritual that describe a particular proceeding in context with other rituals. In the meantime, this sums up my thinking pretty well:
Ritualization invokes dynamics of contrast with other forms of cultural activity and, inevitably, with other ritualized acts. Indeed, one cannot adequately portray the full dynamics of ritualization except in the larger context of ritual traditions and systems. (C. Bell, 1992: 118)
A single practice in isolation can easily create confusion and may be seem as alien or bizarre in the absence of adequate context. As a result, participants/observers would be less convinced of its validity and the ritual's underlying message and the religion would lose appeal. It is easy to imagine situations where participants are distracted from the visualization of complex processes if ceremonial proceedings seem too weird. If they are complete outsiders to the tradition, it may have zero appeal to them in the future. Here we see that the distinction you made between understanding a religion and finding spiritual meaning in religious practice is probably a little artificial, if not misleading. Outsiders who have been exposed to weird rituals may never give the religion another chance if they are turned off by the experience. As a result, they won't understand the rituals, nor will there be much chance of understanding the religion as a whole.

Unless the person is studying religion or claiming to speak for a particular tradition, I don't think the omissions and oversimplifications are of much concern...
I think Catherine Bell would say it does matter whether I can appreciate the dynamics of ritualization based on a consideration of the larger context of ritual traditions and systems. From the standpoint of a personal reconstruction of overall meanings, I would say it matters if I do a ritual without knowing enough about it to be able to deploy the total religious vision of which it is a part. I also think it matters that someone won't be giving the religion a chance in the future because a single ritual in isolation was strange and confusing to them.

I fail to see how people being unsystematic in their approach to traditions has any capacity to harm themselves or other beings, so I fail to see why I should be concerned.
To my way of thinking, the issue is whether there is much to be gained from an incomplete representation of a ritual's original context of use that causes confusion. But as we have seen, a scattered/fragmented approach can have a negative impact on meaning and thereby cause the person to lose interest. Low expectations of meaning based on past experience will mean the person will be less likely to look into the religion in the future. One could easily imagine a situation where the person loses interest in a religion that would have been helpful to them because the rituals were not adequately explained to them.
 
Syncretism can involve substitution. For example Mayan syncretism has Christian elements that were substituted for Mesoamerican religious beliefs (Tavanti, 2003). Historically, syncretism has had a bad name because some substitutions don't make much religious sense. For example practitioners of the Santeria religion will substitute Catholic saints for the spirits that were featured in the indigenous folk religion. This doesn't make much sense.

Make sense to whom? Who gets to decide what makes sense and why? Some Catholic saints were originally taken from Pagan gods and goddesses... so is it really that odd that they then are substituted for spirits?

That's another syncretic religion that evidently emerged in the context of slavery and forced conversion. You say this is an example of syncretism creating something new. I question that. The Haitians adopted apparently adopted Christian beliefs without actually believing them. How can there be a creative synthesis under those circumstances?

Do you have any evidence for your assertions that: (1) Vodun as a syncretic religion makes little or no sense and (2) the Haitians do not believe Christian beliefs (as opposed to blending Christianity with indigenous beliefs)?

I think it is a bit presumptuous to assert that Vodun, Santeria, and so on are somehow religiously non-sensical because they arose from syncretism. On the contrary, I have spoken to Vodun practitioners that have said they find assertions that their religion is inferior to others on this basis offensive. I can understand why.

Christianity itself, as it is in mainstream Catholicism and Protestantism today, is syncretic- incorporating (minimally) elements of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, potentially Buddhism, and certainly a wide range of Paganism.

To speak of any religions as being "pure" and immune from syncretism, borrowing, and substitution over time is, to me, a bit naive about how human ideology and culture changes.

I might add that so far into the discussion, we have not seen a single example of the personal or relational benefits of syncretizing at either level of analysis.

Tolerance? There's one. Most syncretic people I know are very tolerant and interested in other cultures and religions.

Self-reflection? There's another, on a personal level as opposed to a relational one. Creativity is another.

Basically, take the benefits that are proposed for spiritual development and practice in general- and you'll find the same in syncretic movements. I fail to see why you seem to assert that syncretic movements (of which there are many) are somehow inferior to a proposed (but non-existant) "pure" faith tradition. People borrow, they learn from each other, they challenge each other... they misinterpret, they create, they look for similarity and difference. The history of humanity is a history of communication and borrowing and learning from others- most of the time, in a rather willy-nilly seat-of-your-pants way.

To my way of thinking, whether a proceeding is done on a doctrinally sound way is less important than whether it's done in a way that sheds light on the sacred message of which it is a symbol. I am by no means encouraging doctrinal accuracy for the sake of conventionality. I am merely suggesting that someone who might otherwise be content to free associate with an existing ritual without knowing much about its original context of use might get more out of it if they had a big picture of where a particular ritual enactment fits into a larger symbolic system. If they had more information, they would probably be able to to deploy a more complete theological vision.

I can see your point, but I would still maintain that this is bound to particular ways of learning and perceiving the world. Not everyone would or should have the goal of "deploying a more complete theological vision." Some people are in spiritual practice for practical ethics. Some are in it for ecstatic experience. Some are in it for social and relational aspects. I don't think that one person's spiritual path and goals are necessarily better or worse than another person's, nor do I consider something like ecstatic experience inferior to theology.

For someone who is interested in a high degree of meaningfulness, it may actually make very little sense to focus on a single aspect of a religious proceeding, just as it may make little sense to do any single ritual in isolation without knowing how it's connected to other rituals.

This depends on how one creates or perceives meaning.

Someone suggested that a person can't be expected to believe in a religious text that they can't adequately comprehend. I don't think you are suggesting that it's enough to look at Greek typography in order to a appreciate the New Testament if one does not know Greek.

Sacred text is a different matter from ritual, as it is linguistic only in its form. Ritual is a form that includes many different entry-ways for the practitioner to create meaning, including body movement, sound, scent, symbology, ritual time and space, and so on.

Meaningfulness is a matter of degree, isn't it? Doing any one practice may actually require doing others if the one practice is to provide meaningful exposure to the religion as a whole.

Well, yes- if the goal is to provide accurate exposure to the religion as a whole. But that says little of meaning. Doing one practice may provide a great deal of meaning to an individual, while allowing them to still be relatively ignorant of the religion as a whole and the ritual's conventional message.

This, however, does not mean that no meaningful message is created by the participant.

A scattered/fragmented approach would be expected to lead to reduced meaningfulness. Kind of like suggesting that we read a book starting with a few lines from the last page, with no plan to look at the beginning or the middle (as though they're irrelevant). It's hard to make a credible case for knowing what the book is about if you've only read the last page.

What I am trying to say is that there are different ways something can become meaningful, and this meaning can be defined by various people. The individual can create a meaning that is useful in his/her spiritual development without having a credible case for understanding the religion as a whole. Conversely, a religious adherant can be well-versed in understanding his/her religion and know the institutionally approved meanings of a ritual without having any personal experience or meaning in doing it. Knowledge about something does not yield meaningful experience by default. It can be of assistance, but it could be a hindrance as well. There is a difference between the conventional message of a ritual and its capacity to create a meaningful experience.

All I'm saying is: why settle for a part when you need the whole? Taken together, a set of rituals and the liturgy can help clarify underlying doctrine. As compared to being done in isolation, a given ritual is likely to make more sense when it appears in context of supporting liturgy and adjoining rituals.

Again, it depends on who defines what makes sense to whom. Yes, a religion as a package with liturgy, ritual, and doctrine generally has an intrinisic order to it, and each piece helps to create solidarity among practitioners- as well as social control. In telling people what a ritual should mean, and then using ritual experience to form a sense of identity and investment in the group, religion has a high capacity for creating social order that is felt on both institutional/cultural and individual levels.

However, none of that means a hill of beans for an individual's spiritual development as a person. Religion is full of people who are trained adherants, take on the identity, and behave in the socially conditioned way who really may not have any appreciable spiritual life at all. That is, knowing the liturgy, the ritual, its proper meanings, doctrine, and sacred text do not directly yield meaningful spiritual experience or development.

The Dalai Lama himself pointed this out, estimating that despite the many religions and adherants in the world, only a small fraction probably obtained spiritual development from their religion. This is, in part, why he advocated compassion as a secular (but spiritual) revolution.

A single practice in isolation can easily create confusion and may be seem as alien or bizarre in the absence of adequate context.

Confusion can be a good thing for spiritual development. Just as culture shock can often yield personal growth, tolerance, and a greater ability to be flexible, so too can the challenge of a ritual in the absence of "adequate" (and again, who gets to determine what this is for others?) context.

As a result, participants/observers would be less convinced of its validity and the ritual's underlying message and the religion would lose appeal.

On the contrary, the New Age movement is full of people who are fully convinced of the validity of various rituals and practices with very little understanding of the original message and religion. Religion actually seems more appealing to people in the first world the less it is understood and the more mysterious it is. On the other hand, you have many atheists who are very well-versed in Christianity but have wholly rejected it- often explaining that its appeal was lost over time- the more they learned, the less appealing they found the religion.

Validity of ritual depends a great deal on how the practitioner assigns validity. Personal experience? Authority figure approval? Time-honored tradition? New and improved or ancient? And this is carried into different religions' ways of assessing validity. In religions with trained centralized authority, validity of ritual is generally thought to be based on the training of the priest and proper execution of liturgy. In religions that are more shamanic or mystical in nature, training and proper execution are worthless if the individual has no power or ecstatic experience. Conversely, rituals may be created rather spontaneously and be considered valid and effective if they work- that is, if they connect the practitioners with deity, or heal someone, or allow the soul to journey.

Outsiders who have been exposed to weird rituals may never give the religion another chance if they are turned off by the experience. As a result, they won't understand the rituals, nor will there be much chance of understanding the religion as a whole.

On the other hand, outsiders might find weird rituals intriguing, and thereby begin to study and research so as to learn more.

A lot of an individual's response will be grounded in their personality, learning style, and existing conditioning.

I think Catherine Bell would say it does matter whether I can appreciate the dynamics of ritualization based on a consideration of the larger context of ritual traditions and systems.

If the goal is the study of religion, I'd entirely agree. If the goal is spiritual development, then it becomes a much more complex issue.

But as we have seen, a scattered/fragmented approach can have a negative impact on meaning and thereby cause the person to lose interest.

Or it can be personally challenging and have a positive impact, allowing new and creative individualistic meanings to be found and causing someone to be intrigued.

Low expectations of meaning based on past experience will mean the person will be less likely to look into the religion in the future. One could easily imagine a situation where the person loses interest in a religion that would have been helpful to them because the rituals were not adequately explained to them.

And one can also easily imagine a situation where a person rapidly loses interest because before experiencing anything of a religion, they have to undergo extensive study until they are deemed "adequately" prepared (by who, we still don't know). One can also imagine that such preparation assures, in part, that the institution will have greater social control, and indeed, the more institutionalized and organized religions have long used preparation to partake in ritual as a means of indoctrinating practitioners to ensure less revolution, creativity, and individual liberty in spiritual practice and ideas.

I don't argue against the idea that studying a religion in its full context is necessary for understanding it in its full context. Such studies are necessary for social and humanities studies of religion, for example. However, I do argue against the idea that any institutional body should determine what is best for other people and their spiritual development, as well as what creates meaningful experience for others. To me, this limits personal spiritual freedom in a way that is not only non-beneficial to individuals, but also creates a controlling environment socially, stifling creativity, debate, revolution, and other aspects of human society that I find desireable.
 
Path & N-N, your ongoing dialogue/debate in this thread at least in part seems to come down to the differentiation between spirituality, (a personally meaningful, expereintially-based approach to spiritual development) and religion. Though, obviously, those 2 don't have to be at odds. But, because they often are, we get the popular personal response to queries about religious/spiritual beliefs: "I'm spiritual but not religious." earl
 
Thank for the detailed reply, PoO,
Do you have any evidence for your assertions that: (1) Vodun as a syncretic religion makes little or no sense and (2) the Haitians do not believe Christian beliefs (as opposed to blending Christianity with indigenous beliefs)?
Some of the attempts at fusing the indigenous religion with Catholicism were confusing. For example, Satan was identified with various Catholic Saints. (See P.E. Lovejoy 2000:108) But in a larger historical & anthropological sense, Vodun doesn't make any sense as a syncretic religion because the indigenous practitioners for the most part wanted no part of Catholicism and were not interested in developing a syncretic religion that involved Catholicism. In fact, Vodun was a means of generating group solidarity among Haitians and it would a one point have a part in mobilizing their revolutionary action against the French Catholics:
The rise of vodoun can be viewed as the slaves’ refusal to completely adopt a culture that they had been forcibly inserted into....Vodoun also played a large role in the Haitian revolution. The mass uprising was planned during a vodoun ceremony led by a priest named Boukman. This ceremony was on the evening of August 14, 1791, and “is generally accepted as the first tangible contribution of [vodoun] to the liberation of the Haitian people.” In this ceremony, Boukman prayed to the vodoun gods and requested those present to “fulfill the religious mission of exterminating all the French colonists” in the quest for freedom.

The Catholic faith of the French colonists was mostly rejected in part because it provided no relief from the slaves’ miserable existence and Catholicism was seen as a “religion of colonial oppression.” Those Catholic priests who had tried to “save the souls of the slaves were seen as subversive” and expelled, with the effect that those who remained were not particularly eager to assist the slaves.
Legalizing Voodoo - Haiti Officially Recognized Vodoun as a Religion

Vodun seems to have been a form of masked culture that tends to develop during periods of conquest. In fact, it seems that Vodun was actually a "secret religion" that people continued to practice privately while showing a false, surface level attachment to Catholic ideology. It seems they acted like they were adopting the European religion to fake out the slave owners who expected them to convert. "Christianity was a surface aspect ... the saint is but a front, a mask that hides the (nonChristian) g-d, and we cannot rightly talk about syncretism, since African signs and emblems prevail" (De Heusch, 1989).

How can there be real syncretism when people do not believe in both the religions that are ostensibly being blended? I suppose its possible, but I have yet to see any evidence of substantive structural/ideological syncretism in Vodun, as would be indicated by a new synthesis or innovation. You wouldn't really expect syncreticism for people who were resisting forced conversion and who were refusing to have their culture assimilated.

Tolerance? There's one. Most syncretic people I know are very tolerant and interested in other cultures and religions.
There has not much there in the way if tolerance in connection with Vodun. Haiti banned the Catholic church. After making a comeback, the Catholic church made very aggressive attempts to stamp out Vodun - efforts that went on for years and bordered on cultural genocide. A sad and terrible story.

In conclusion, Vodu was not a creative synthesis of religions traditions. It was a reactive, negative adaptation to slavery and forced conversion, the symptom of one more episode of religious conflict on this planet. With De Heusch, I'd say that the term "syncretism," may not even apply to Vodun.

(I had a much more detailed version of this response with lots more references that got gobbled up by WordPad. Someday I'll learn not to that program anymore.:( Sorry. Anyway, one of the more notable voices on this subject of fakery in allegedly syncretic religions is an anthropologist by the name of Melville Herskovits, who reported fieldwork findings. If you do a search on him, you will find numerous other papers concerned with the masking or cloaking functions of overtly adopted religion.)
 
Netti, I think the issue of whether or not Vodun is a syncretic religion is one that is debated within the circles of religious studies and anthropology. As the traditional African beliefs of a single creator god who delegated various work to spirits (loa) is effectively mirrored in the Catholic belief of a single creator god whose saints assist with various work, Vodun practitioners have blended the two.

While Vodun certainly could be considered a religion borne out of conquest, and while it may be veiling traditional folk beliefs and ritual with a Catholic veneer, I do not think that makes it any less valid as a religion or any less organized in a sensible manner for its practitioners. What "makes sense" from the Catholic standpoint would differ from what "makes sense" from the folk African one... and I don't think either party has the corner on creating meaningful systems for practitioners.

Aside from the issue of whether or not Vodun is a syncretic religion, this seems to be a tangent to the actual points I was making about the generation of meaning, the issue of religion and social control versus spirituality and individual development, and so on.

I know you enjoy getting into the details, but I fail to see where this digression relates to the issue of interfaith and syncretism itself. I am still quite confused as to how you perceive the individual responsibilities, rights, and realities of people to create meaningful spiritual development and how this does or should relate to religion and the human tendency to borrow and integrate from others.

I think earl hit it on the head- you are focused on institutionalized religion, while I am focused on spirituality. Therefore, your assertions about meaning seem to largely be related to issues of religious authority, tradition, and historical context, while mine are related to issues of individual right and responsibility, creativity, and personal development.
 
I fail to see where this digression relates to the issue of interfaith and syncretism itself.
I was merely addressing the question you posed in your previous post.

think the issue of whether or not Vodun is a syncretic religion is one that is debated within the circles of religious studies and anthropology.
I was exploring Vudun as an example of an interaction between religions that produced some thing new. It does seem to have produced something new, but is is unclear if it was a social movement that led to a slave revolt or a theological innovation.

your assertions about meaning seem to largely be related to issues of religious authority, tradition, and historical context, while mine are related to issues of individual right and responsibility, creativity, and personal development.
You suggested that syncretism is a possible avenue for seeing the constructive function of culture in action.

you are focused on institutionalized religion, while I am focused on spirituality.
ok, let's talk about spirituality.

As the traditional African beliefs of a single creator god who delegated various work to spirits (loa) is effectively mirrored in the Catholic belief of a single creator god whose saints assist with various work, Vodun practitioners have blended the two.
How did the blending affect the spirituality of Haitian Vodou practitioners?
 
I was exploring Vudun as an example of an interaction between religions that produced some thing new. It does seem to have produced something new, but is is unclear if it was a social movement that led to a slave revolt or a theological innovation.

I am not sure that the two must be separate. I am not well-versed in liberation theology but it seems that a reworking of Catholicism into something that blends with spirit-worship and possession, and is practiced not only by trained clergy but also by laity (who can receive and give messages from the loa when they are ridden)... this perhaps coincides with a liberation from social and economic oppressors.

You suggested that syncretism is a possible avenue for seeing the constructive function of culture in action.

I am not sure what you mean by the constructive function. I think syncretism can allow for individual and small group creativity in a way that institutionalized religion rarely can. Both institutionalized religion and smaller syncretic movements (which can later become institutionalized religions of course) have certain constructive functions as cultural attributes. They just tend to construct different things, at least at the origin of new religious movements.

ok, let's talk about spirituality.

I wasn't complaining, just pointing out the difference in focus that likely was leading to different ways of interpreting "meaning" and its construction.

How did the blending affect the spirituality of Haitian Vodou practitioners?

I don't know; I am not an expert on Vodun history. But I would offer the answer to that question depends a lot on the individual in question. It isn't as if all Haitian Vodun practitioners are a homogenous lot whose spirituality could be summed up as a generalization. Though I could harbor a guess that protest against oppression had an interactive effect with claiming possession, pilgrimmage, personal altars (and other such Vodun practices that allow for individual empowerment and creativity).
 
I am not sure that the two must be separate.
Probably not. But you originally mentioned Vodun as an example of a syncretism that facilitated the creation of religious meaning. Most of what I have seen describes it as an 'apparent syncretism.'

I am not sure what you mean by the constructive function.
As in the construction of meaning.

I think syncretism can allow for individual and small group creativity in a way that institutionalized religion rarely can. Both institutionalized religion and smaller syncretic movements (which can later become institutionalized religions of course) have certain constructive functions as cultural attributes. They just tend to construct different things, at least at the origin of new religious movements.
Examples?

just pointing out the difference in focus that likely was leading to different ways of interpreting "meaning" and its construction.
I think it is possible to make the distinction too sharp. These different ways can converge in some places. For example, I think we often think of religious experience as being very personal. However, I think it can be seen as as a cultural idiom that is concerned with creating transcendent meanings that go well beyond the person ("transpersonal"). In fact, almost by definition religious experience puts the person in touch with a transcendent source of meaning, giving the person access to universal archetypes, religious themes, etc.

I would suggest that religious experiences are not all that personal or idiosyncratic insofar that they coincide with existing myths and cultural practices. Let's look at shamans.

In religions with trained centralized authority, validity of ritual is generally thought to be based on the training of the priest and proper execution of liturgy. In religions that are more shamanic or mystical in nature, training and proper execution are worthless if the individual has no power or ecstatic experience.
Shamans appear as social functionaries with prescribed duties. Rather than evolve in isolation, they train as apprentices in order to acquire essential skills. The training includes ecstatic experience. Here's a description of Nepalese shaman culture:
The Tamang bombo does not live in an idiosyncratic universe, nor does he suffer from impaired reality testing, cognitive distortion, or maladaptive behaviors. The world of spirits, the dreams and visions of the shaman may seem abnormal from our cultural perspective, but from the perspective of the Tamang, it is all part of reality which consensus populates with numerous spirits believed to possess individuals, cause illness, and exist in other demonstrable ways. S. J. Nicholson, 1987
The shaman's career follows a fairly predictable, culturally constructed trajectory. Apprenticeship covers essential rituals and practices. A shaman become a trained authority as a result of the apprenticeship. The individual can expect to receive social support from a community that understands what the shaman's place in the scheme of things. (Nicholson, p. 172).

The overall impression we get form these descriptions is that there's actually very little that's unique to the person. Even the experiential part - ecstasy - is an an acquired skill that has a social purpose. In a sense, it's as though the religious experience actually belongs to the community and its validity resides in social reactions, not on how the practitioner sees it. Outsiders who have dismissive attitudes toward religious experiences don't usually realize that they are rejecting the religious culture that surrounds it when they try to pathologize such experiences.

While we're here, I'm reminded of conversion experiences. Some people would contend that these are unique personal experiences as well. However, there is some research evidence that suggests that people have these experiences after having a lot of religious discussions with friends and family. In other words, it is a cultural phenomena that involves consensus. It's not just a special private phenomenological event the meaning of which is dependent on a unique personal perspective.

The importance of ritual is also apparent in other spheres of life. Rituals are a source of family stability. There is some research that suggests that dysfunctional families are chaotic because family members (e.g., alcoholic parents) are not committed to preserving family rituals. This can be confusing and disruptive to kids' sense of stability and may result in efforts on the part of the kids to control the parents' behavior. As you can imagine, things can get very convoluted.

I think you have touched on something I hadn't thought about: individual differences in the need for rituals to be flexible and permeable. If the ritual is too rigid, it might seem like a negative influence that would seem to restrict the creative, imaginative space and keep peope from making "the journey to another world" that we associate with spiritual practice and personal transformation. The family dynamics equivalent would be parents imposing their idea of order on kids to the exclusion of kids' autonomy. It's quite possible that this kind of thing happens even in families where parents give lip service to the idea that the kids have a say in the proceedings. The inconsistency between the message and the behavior just adds to the confusion when parents don't walk the talk.

At any rate, you're right: Spiritual reality is not reducible to doctrine or ritual. But we can use doctrine or ritual to reflect on the reality. I also agree that there's the possibility that doctrines and rituals become too entrenched to the point where they cease to have much value in the process of creating meaning.
 
I read your post and am completely agree on the need for interfaith dialog especially in today's world.

Contemporary Muslim scholar Mr. Fethullah Gulen is one of the leading people for promoting dialog among faiths. The following papers, I think, very helpful to understand his ideas.

...************************/userfiles/file/Proceedings/Prcd%20-%20Keles,%20O.pdf

...guleninstitute.org/

...fethullahgulenconference.org/
 
I read your post and am completely agree on the need for interfaith dialog especially in today's world.

Contemporary Muslim scholar Mr. Fethullah Gulen is one of the leading people for promoting dialog among faiths. The following papers, I think, very helpful to understand his ideas.

...************************/userfiles/file/Proceedings/Prcd%20-%20Keles,%20O.pdf

...guleninstitute.org/

...*****************************/



Hi Interfaithdilaog,

could you put the link to the papers of Mr. Fethullah Gulen another post, It didn't seem to work and I can't find the papers you mean on the website. Cheers.

The U. :)
 
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