The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bible &

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Shawn

I write parables ...
(posted 5 on this site alone: one here, and 4 here)

So I think I know how parables work.

& & &

(But frankly, Shawn, I need to feel anger and whimsy beneath the figurative language. I need to smell the sweat.

When your 'science of the soul' cosmogonic-lollypop is portrayed in a way where I smell the sweat, then I will stop thinking of it as lollypop and start looking at it seriously.

Peace, till then. Good luck.)

 

[Dream]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

@ Joedjr

No, I don't think there is some secret mystical group within the Catholic church. I think that the Catholics that were being overrun by politicians placed their teachings into the mystical to hide them from interference. Only someone who studies everything obtains the understanding and benefit, but they are also forbidden to explain it openly. I assert without explanation that such restriction was put in place to keep the politicians' dirty hands off, to keep them from obscuring it. I see a struggle between mystic & politic that goes back and forth over the centuries, with the Reformation being one of the results. The mystic likes flexibility, but the king finds standards and rules more attractive. I think that the political aspect continues, but that the mystical aspect is inseperable so that the politicals cannot get rid of it. The mysticals cannot seem to escape the political part. The two have reached a stable awareness and acceptance of one another, like sun and moon.

@ Penelope

Maybe, however I like the figurative Jesus a lot.

 

[shawn]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Shawn

I write parables ...
(posted 5 on this site alone: one here, and 4 here)

So I think I know how parables work.

& & &

(But frankly, Shawn, I need to feel anger and whimsy beneath the figurative language. I need to smell the sweat.

When your 'science of the soul' cosmogonic-lollypop is portrayed in a way where I smell the sweat, then I will stop thinking of it as lollypop and start looking at it seriously.

Peace, till then. Good luck.)

My usage of the word "you" was figurative and generic and not directed to you personally.
But I hear you.
I also see that in what you have said is the same thing I have heard from many others who, for some reason, have a rational mind blockage which prevents them from having a visceral intuitive experience of the so called "mystical" or figurative realities. I don't know why exactly this occurs other than perhaps evidence of a strong ego structure which is dominant and refuses to let the other aspects of a persons internal psyche develop and be accessible.
But it is good to be practical, although I see a huge parallel between that state of mind and the Thomas disciple of the NT.

What is the sensation when you touch the invisible?
How does it smell?

 

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

... mind blockage which prevents them from having a visceral intuitive experience ...

What is the sensation when you touch the invisible?
How does it smell?

Mixed metaphors, Shawn?
(Seem to remember a college Writing prof warning me against those.)

Or is this like a metaphysical 'trick question'?
You put three of the five human senses in one question ... then I'm supposed to answer utilizing the other two senses?

Like ...
TASTES sweet but a tad lemony-acidic, tad sour? (lollypop)
and ...
SOUNDS like one hand clapping? (a brain twister aimed at producing mukti)

Or, more appropriately ...
TASTES like when two pervious eleventh-dimensional branes momentarily kiss?
and ...
SOUNDS like two black-matter strings, remote from each other in space, chiming at the same ethereal wavelength?

Or something like that, Shawn?
(Where does it stop being a brain-game - this allegorizing - and start being something real in your or my life?)

& & &

And where is the visceral you talk about? (raw, gut-level emotion)
'Visceral' I like!

I distrust intuition. And so should you.
Many (perhaps most) of the key discoveries of science were counterintuitive.
When the data came in, the researcher had to totally rethink his or her theoretical model.

Intuition is a type of environmental hyperawareness. The brain is saying ...
'What is missing from this picture?'
Then ...
'Ah-ha!'
But too often the 'environment' is too narrow - not the whole ecology.
Too often 'intuition' is no more than an ulterior 'commonsense' - 26 pieces of a jigsaw-puzzle containing 37,000 pieces. Pound in anything that seems to fit.
Whatever metaphor you use to fill-in the vast gaps ... is entirely arbitrary. A yellow-X fits just as well as a blue-Y just as well as a ...

& & &

Intuition ...
You say this, Shawn. The guy over there says that. You are each going to be wrong 999 times out of a 1000. And even if, by (1 in a 1000) fluke, you get it right this time, how am I going to test it? How can I trust it?

No. Mention 'intuition,' Shawn, and I stop listening.

& & &

(But I, greedily, will listen to what you have to say about ... the visceral ! )

 

[shawn]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Well, I have had visceral results from my actions which were based upon my intuition.
Maybe we mean slightly different things with that term.
Intuition for me has been akin to what others call second sight. I have called it intuition.
I have "known" things, or had revealed to me, information, which I should not have been able to know and had no physical connection to, yet I knew it anyway.
This has happened on numerous occasions, but I cannot call it up on demand.
When it has occurred, it has always been useful and has had beneficial personal results.
I don't claim to be a psychic, or to have special mystical powers.
I am no different than anyone else.
I think that all people have access to such perceptive abilities, but not everyone seems to be able to use them.
As I said even though I have had these experiences I cannot just call it up on demand.
It is these visceral experiences of so called mystic phenomena which have caused me to form the opinions I hold.

 

[Raksha]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

"Ancient" truth is agrarian truth, not modern.

(Its deep human meaning is not particularly 'deep' nor all that 'humanistic.' It is a 'narrow path' for an elite. Not for the common man.)

Penelope,

I haven't read through this entire thread (although I probably should) but your statement above looks kind of self-contradictory to me. Why would "agrarian truth" necessarily be "a narrow path for an elite"?

In cultures that depended on agriculture for survival, and where the greatest percentage of the population was directly involved with it, the earliest forms of the Mysteries were popular and not esoteric or elitist whatsoever. For example: the hieros gamos (sacred marriage) was originally a simple fertility ritual intended to bring about an abundant harvest by an act of sympathetic magic. Since people's lives literally depended on those harvests, it's hard to see anything esoteric about it.

Over time, or possibly through contact with older civilizations, these fertility rituals may have evolved into something very esoteric like the Gnostic "Mystery of the Bridal Chamber." I have read the Gospel of Philip many times and still haven't been able to figure out whether the Mystery of the Bridal Chamber was enacted literally or not. The phrase "understand the image undefiled" (i.e. not literally) suggests it may have been a purely internal "union" brought about through ritual or meditation.

Sometimes the hieros gamos becomes a metaphor for Creation itself, as in Yeats' wonderful poem "Ribh Denounces Patrick," i.e. St. Patrick and the idea of an all-male Trinity, which he calls "an abstract Greek absurdity."

Natural and supernatural with the self-same ring are wed,
For things below are copies, the great Smaragdine Tablet said.

It's tempting to want to quote the whole thing, but it's late so I'm writing this strictly off the top of my head. But note the reference to the Emerald Tablet of Hermes--how esoteric can you get? And yet it's all based on the natural and universal experiences of fertility and reproduction.

I also don't see where the "agrarian experience" would ever become obsolete either. We depend on it for survival just as much now as then--it's just that far fewer people have direct experience with growing their own food.

--Linda

 

[Raksha]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

I have "known" things, or had revealed to me, information, which I should not have been able to know and had no physical connection to, yet I knew it anyway.
This has happened on numerous occasions, but I cannot call it up on demand.

Shawn,

I know what you mean! I've had very similar experiences, but can't call that faculty up on demand either.

I don't claim to be a psychic, or to have special mystical powers.
I am no different than anyone else.
I think that all people have access to such perceptive abilities, but not everyone seems to be able to use them.

I agree with you there too. I think the reaon most people can't access these abilities is because they either don't trust themselves enough or (more likely) they don't believe it's possible. But I believe all people have the ability innately. The problem is that they don't know it.

--Linda

 

[Raksha]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Intuition ...
You say this, Shawn. The guy over there says that. You are each going to be wrong 999 times out of a 1000. And even if, by (1 in a 1000) fluke, you get it right this time, how am I going to test it? How can I trust it?

No. Mention 'intuition,' Shawn, and I stop listening.

& & &

(But I, greedily, will listen to what you have to say about ... the visceral ! )

Penelope,

Are you familiar with the MBTI, the Myers-Briggs Type Index? If you have such a strong preference for the visceral, you are most likely a Sensate type, the opposite of an Intuitive. It's one or the other, because these are one of the four pairs of opposites on the MBTI.

Not all of us are, and you are NOT going get an Intuitive to stop talking about intuition whether you "stop listening" or not. I'm an INFP, i.e. Introverted-iNtuitive-Feeling-Perceptive, so intuition is hard-wired into me.

Do you know your MBTI type? It would be interesting if you took the test and came out an Intuitive!

--Linda

 

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Hi Linda

I wanted to thank you for your considered responses to my irksome remarks regarding "ancient wisdom."

I, too, could once quote W.B. Yeats at length. Or T.S. Eliot.
Great poets! (But questionable as philosophers or theologians.)

& & &

I'm bugged by people talking about "secret knowledge" buried in symbols.

Sumerian priests (and priestesses) had developed a calendar from a star-map of the sky. This was valid knowledge. Both scientific (observationally accurate) and practical (predicted optimal planting and harvesting time for the crops).

Like scientific jargon, these priests created an arcane symbolic shorthand for talking about these things between themselves (very elitist). But some priests also used this language as a magic formula to try to predict (to 'divine') the future in other ways. Bad idea. Or some used the symbols as a metaphor for a process of psychic growth, raising oneself above the mundane. Good idea, back then. But there are better languages for that today (psychological and biophysical), where the ideas have some scientific and sociological grounding. (Broad-based, peer-reviewed ideas that all people have access to. Not supposedly 'hidden knowledge' that a guy with a microphone and a slideshow can charge you an arm-and-a-leg to learn about.)

& & &

"As above, so below."
This is just me, Linda ... But I distrust this "spiritual/material" dualism.

The assumption ... That we each are imprisoned in the material world. And that to perceive this other reality, and to free oneself from one's material chains, one needs metaphors/symbols/allegories as the bridge taking one from ignorance to wisdom - metaphors one won't need once one gets there ...
Is all too pat for me, Linda.

It's a scam. It is a way of cheating oneself. It is a way of saying that "my daily, material life is not valuable."

The "spiritual" is right there. Just look. There is no bridge you have to cross. "Below/above" or materialism/spirituality is a phony dualism as far as I am concerned.

"God is there, at every moment in your day," is something traditional religions - from Christianity to Buddhism - will tell you.
And that is far closer to the Truth than any of the New Age nonsense I hear.

But then, what do I know, Linda? I have no intuition.

& & &

I may have taken the Myers-Briggs test once.

Reminds me of a friend who did my astrological chart, years ago. Lot of her results had murky relevance toward defining my personality, but there is one or two things that she really nailed. "That's me!"

Some years later, in a surly mood, a newer friend asked to do my chart. This time I lied. I pulled the year, day, and hour of my birth out of thin air. The results? ...
Lot of the results had murky relevance as regards defining my personality, but there is one or two things that this new friend really nailed. "That's me!"

I know employers give personality tests, these days. But I am skeptical of their ultimate value. I teach Science and History to schoolkids. I wear a different hat when I teach Science than when I teach History - wear a different personality. I write fiction, Linda, for fun. My personality is often ... whatever character I am most inside at that particular moment.

Sometimes this character, I'm inside of, even has an 'Intuitive' personality.
(So ... At the very least, Linda, I have some personal idea where 'Intuitives' come from. I'm not unsympathetic of your motives. I'm just highly skeptical of the results you get by juggling metaphors ... rather than employing more substantial, more modern tools - to get where you are going.)

Talk again,

P

 

[Raksha]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

I write fiction, Linda, for fun. My personality is often ... whatever character I am most inside at that particular moment.

Sometimes this character, I'm inside of, even has an 'Intuitive' personality.
(So ... At the very least, Linda, I have some personal idea where 'Intuitives' come from. I'm not unsympathetic of your motives. I'm just highly skeptical of the results you get by juggling metaphors ... rather than employing more substantial, more modern tools - to get where you are going.)

Penelope,

LOL!!! It's not a matter of "motives" whatsoever. It's a matter of aptitudes; what I'm good at and not so good at, to the point of being disgracefully, embarrassingly inept in certain areas. These tendencies show up in both my MBTI classification and in my horoscope.

You could even say they show up three different ways, if you want to count the fact that I'm also an ADD combined type, i.e. leaning towards the inattentive type but with some hyperactive traits. If you're a teacher you undoubtedly have dealt with these very bright underachiever types, so you know what I'm talking about. There's the class clown (hyper) and then there's the daydreamer/space cadet (inattentive).

My horoscope matches my MBTI in that I have NO planets in any earth sign. Nada. Zilch. I mean nothing--not even a lousy node of the moon as far as I know. You really think I want to be so hopelessly bad with money, or such a klutz at following the instructions that come with the simplest mechanical device...such as my cordless drill?

What I'm saying is that abstract speculation especially in the symbolic or archetypal realm is not only what I love, what has fascinated me endlessly my entire life--it's also what I'm good at! And seeing as I'm stuck with this particular psychic and/or karmic setup anyway, I figure I might as well make the best of it.

So it shouldn't surprise you that I write poetry, or I used to anyway. I've posted one poem on my blog and plan to post a couple of others soon. I am hoping to prime the pump, to find the way back to that part of myself that knows how to spin straw into gold. The two poems I have in my mind to post in the near future have an esoteric substructure--one Gnostic and one kabbalistic. That also shouldn't surprise you.

I'm reasonably content with the way I am, but even when I'm not--even when I'm totally disgusted and fed up with it--I'm still stuck with it! In fact, I can't imagine being any other way. Although I wish I hadn't destroyed my USB flash drive the first time I used it on my own.

Namaste,
Linda

 

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib


Linda

Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually reading some Kabbalistic writings (guilty pleasure). It's a kind of nonsense writing, to me, which perks up the ears.

I'm so-so with Tech things, myself. Anything difficult, I go to Troy (my eldest). He'll figure out what to do - in two seconds. (Nice to have brainy kids around the house. My youngest, Brandi, is so-so with Tech - like me. But we make a good team at figuring things out, when Troy is not around.)

Your poetry, Linda ... ? Just let it fly.
(And let me know about it when it's posted.)

I, myself, have a Kabbalistic-like allegory posted over on one of IO's "Lounge" threads:
Lucia and the Snake. (It pretends to be a lot simpler and more innocent than it, at heart, is.)

My advice, regarding your personality as it clashes with a hyper-practical world ... ?
- Yes. Do what you can do. (Not what society tells you ... you should do.)
- Don't listen to personality tests or astrological charts. Don't box yourself in, utilizing other people's words and symbols. Listen to yourself. (Then listen deeper. {Then listen deeper still.}) Find your own touchstone with reality. (One using your own words. Not somebody else's.)

(And every day, say something totally absurd to somebody. Pause. Then wink at them, to let them know you are not crazy.)
It's okay to enjoy life.

Talk soon,

P

 

[Raksha]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Don't tell anyone, but I'm actually reading some Kabbalistic writings (guilty pleasure).

Penelope,

AHA! I knew it!

It's a kind of nonsense writing, to me, which perks up the ears.

Well, yeah...I guess you could call it nonsense writing--some of it, anyway. But there are concepts in Kabbalah are unique, that I haven't found anywhere else and that I believe are probably true. Like the idea of tsimtsum, for one. I'm not sure how to translate it--maybe Dauer or BB will show up and help me out with the literal meaning.

I know what it refers to, though. It's from Lurianic Kabbalah and it's the idea of God's self-limitation. Tsimtsum means that in order to create the Universe, God had to first withdraw or "contract" in order to create a space where God was not. In other words, the first thing to be "created" was the Void! Maybe you could also call it Chaos, but I'm not sure about that since chaos is a different word in Hebrew--tohu-bohu, a confused mixture. It implies a kind of primordial soup.

I think the idea of tsimtsum appeals to me because I've always been very sensitive to negative space, and looking at or for what isn't there.

I, myself, have a Kabbalistic-like allegory posted over on one of IO's "Lounge" threads:

Lucia and the Snake. (It pretends to be a lot simpler and more innocent than it, at heart, is.)

I just read it a little while ago, and posted a longer comment after it. You call that "simple and innocent"? It's VERY well written, but kind of dark for my taste. I would have given it...maybe not a "happy ending" exactly, but a more mystical ending implying rebirth or transformation. But that's me.

--Linda

 

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Tsimtsum means that in order to create the Universe, God had to first withdraw or "contract" in order to create a space where God was not.

Linda

I found this Kabbalistic reference, by you, interesting.

Like with each of my children ... I want to embrace each so firmly, that there is no distinction between me and them.
I have to continually remind myself to 'give them space' - so they can develop.
Too much love can be a poison. I have to continually back away.

The pain of birth ... That is, in a sense, what my bringing children into the world is about. Isn't it? ...
Backing away from union? Letting go, so a new kind of union can be established?

Then, at some point, ... letting go of this new union.
And then, ... this still-newer union after that.
Stepping away. Ever "contracting."

Ever re-writing the emotional contract I have with my children. So as not to smother them.

(Which makes me think that the God of the Kabbalah is a female, and has children.)

Thanks, Linda, for calling this reference to my attention. (Another thing I must make time to look into.)

& & &

And thanks, too, for reading my story.

& & &

If you think Lucia and the Snake is 'dark,' you should take a look at the other 14 stories I've written in the last 7 months! ...

(4 are religious parables/commentaries:
- My Name Is Connie
- Tell Me, Phiny
- Zeke, the Loud-mouth
- Sam the Bully
Listed in the order of quality, not in the order in which they were written or posted, here at IO.
The other 10 stories were posted at another site. Darker still, they are mostly crime thrillers. Listed in no particular order ...
- pink flowers nestled in rimrock
- Pink Death
- Deep Rough
- movie in the afternoon
- Doctor (illustrations by Early)
- Mouth to Mouth
- Rendezvous
- lost cause
- Four Franklins
- Those Hooded Green Eyes (illustrations by Early)
Two are set specifically in the American west, one 100 years ago, the other in the 1970s. A third is set anywhere in the USA in the 1980s. The rest are contemporary, except for two set in 1940s Southern California.
These last two are part of a series called "Lefty from Penkowski's mob." Many of the stories are experimental in style, lost cause being perhaps the most successful of the experiments.) ...

'Death' and the 'definitions of one's identity in the face of death' are central themes in all of these tales. None have "happy endings." (But all have 'satisfying' endings - in a perverse, literary kind of way. As does Lucia and the Snake).

& & &

I mean, Linda. How dare you say the story has a dark ending! By her brave actions, Lucia is 'made sacred' ... is reborn as Goddess of the Lake.

& & &

I have a question for you, Linda. (A serious one.)

There is a person I've gotten to know well (and trust) ...
She is a remarkably sane, competent, level-headed individual.

While talking with her - one day, recently - she confessed to me that she communicates with extraterrestrials.

Should I take her seriously?

- Penny​

 

[shawn]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

(Which makes me think that the God of the Kabbalah is a female, and has children.)

No bias there eh?!
Whatever God is would be complete and not mired with a counterproductive dichotomy such as we contend with.
"The Lord God is ONE." it is said

Made in the image and likeness of God, both male and female.
So either "God" is a group of highly advanced beings of both sexes which we resemble in form, or "God" is a transcendent being which is formless and we are the material representation with our dualities made visible and pronounced.
Or something else entirely which we cannot yet even imagine.

 

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Shawn, should I have added a smiley to let you know that my remark was tongue-in-cheek?

& & &

... either "God" is a group of highly advanced beings of both sexes which we resemble in form, or "God" is a transcendent being which is formless ...

A simple lesson from linguistics:
('being' verbs and 'action' verbs)

If God is a 'being' ... God 'does' nothing.

If God 'does' things (in the universe) ... God 'is' nothing.

 

[shawn]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

This lesson means little.
merely an attempt at being evasive.

 

[Penelope]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

evasive

No, Shawn.
(No joking matter!)

Binary systems are real (are rational). But metaphysical dualisms are bullcrap (a dreamworld).

Ontology (theory of 'Being') is a deadend philosophy, embedded as it is in the lie of metaphysics. And theology based upon Ontology is the biggest lie of all.

Start your theology somewhere else.

 

[shawn]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

Really....what are you on about??????????

 

[Raksha]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

I have a question for you, Linda. (A serious one.)

There is a person I've gotten to know well (and trust) ...
She is a remarkably sane, competent, level-headed individual.

While talking with her - one day, recently - she confessed to me that she communicates with extraterrestrials.

Should I take her seriously?

Penelope,


Oh yes, you should definitely take her seriously! You think ET's communicate with just anyone? I happen to know they are very picky about who they communicate with. It sounds as though in your friend's case, she was chosen precisely because she is competent, sane and level-headed.

Unfortunately, sanity and level-headedness aren't always the criteria, as much as I wish they were. Sometimes, the contact is chosen for imagination and intuition and psychic ability, but can be pretty eccentric and unbalanced in other ways.

A couple of us were just discussing a case like this on another forum, as a matter of fact. We were talking about one of the best-known ET channelers, a certain Laura Knight-Jadcyzk. You may have heard of her because her Signs of the Times website is a major virtual hangout for conspiracy theorists. Laura is highly intelligent, but definitely flaky and unbalanced even by my lax standards. This has become something of a problem for me recently because one of my best cyber-friends has come under her influence, a little bit too much for my comfort. So far, he has managed to keep his head above water by retaining a grain of skepticism and his basic moral values. I just hope he stays that way.

I don't channel ET's, but I'm in no position to argue with people who do or say they do. You'll have to trust me on that one. I'm not going to say any more now, because when I get started on something like this I have a tendency to trip out and say things I regret later. It has happened a couple of times on this forum already.

Namaste,
Linda

 

[iBrian]

Re: The testimony of the early church as toward the correct interpretation of our bib

"Accept everything, believe nothing"

(or was it the other way around? "Believe everything, accept noting"?)