Art of War - Sun Tzu

[Avi]

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:

1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

Any thoughts ??

 

[citizenzen]

6) An idiot of a president?*










*I mean the last one... not this one... though I'm not all happy with this one as it is.

 

[DrumR]

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:

1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

Any thoughts ??

One might add "Arrogance" but then it is part of the sub-set of recklessness.
Nbr4 and Nbr3 work very well together indeed.
Nbr1 and the inverse of Nbr5 are all too often a co-operating pair as well.
Nbr5 may be used to re-enforce Nbr2 -which may lead to further in-securities.

There are some parallels to be found in the Tao teh Ching.

 

[nativeastral]

6] under solicitude of his men, which leads to possible mutiny

 

[Tao_Equus]

(6) Hereditary biases which lead to inbred imbeciles commanding good men.

 

[Avi]

Juan23 had started a thread on this book and topic earlier this year:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-art-of-war-sun-10845.html#post182785

 

[Qi1]

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:

1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

Any thoughts ??

These are good measures of a mans nature. These character traits go well beyond a good general and apply to all facets of leadership:

The book is not only popular among military theorists, but it has also become increasingly popular among political leaders and those in business management. Despite its title, The Art of War addresses strategy in a broad fashion, touching upon public administration and planning. The text outlines theories of battle but also advocates diplomacy and cultivating relationships with other nations as essential to the health of a state.[4]

One can substitute his / her daily interactions for the examples given to see how the analogy applies.
There are many good examples of more contemporary application:

Historians popularly recount how French emperor Napoleon studied Sun's military writings and used them to successfully wage war against the rest of Europe. The emperor's disregard for central principles such as attentiveness to temporal conditions is largely credited for his eventual defeat in Russia. Admiral of the Fleet Tōgō Heihachirō, who led Japan's forces to victory against Russia in the Russo-Japanese War, was an avid reader of The Art of War''.[13]

And even more recent examples as well:

Communist Chinese leader Mao Zedong partially credited his victory over Chiang Kai-shek and the Kuomintang in 1949 to The Art of War. The work strongly influenced Mao's writings about guerrilla warfare, which further influenced communist insurgencies around the world.[12]
General Vo Nguyen Giap, the military mastermind behind victories over French and the American forces in Vietnam, was an avid student and practitioner of Sun Tzu’s ideas. America's defeat here, more than any other event, brought Sun Tzu to the attention of American military thought leaders. Ho Chi Minh translated the work for his Vietnamese officers to study. [14] [15]

Are these lessons better applied to war or general cases of life ?

 

[Qi1]

There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general:

1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction;
2) cowardice, which leads to capture;
3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults;
4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame;
5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.

These character traits are good examples of leadership beyond war time. They relate to judgement of the individual and involve psychological constructs:

The book is not only popular among military theorists, but it has also become increasingly popular among political leaders and those in business management. Despite its title, The Art of War addresses strategy in a broad fashion, touching upon public administration and planning. The text outlines theories of battle but also advocates diplomacy and cultivating relationships with other nations as essential to the health of a state.[4]

There are also examples of more contemporary application of these principles. They apply to a variety of more recent military operations in the European and western theaters.

Historians popularly recount how French emperor Napoleon studied Sun's military writings and used them to successfully wage war against the rest of Europe. The emperor's disregard for central principles such as attentiveness to temporal conditions is largely credited for his eventual defeat in Russia. Admiral of the Fleet Tōgō Heihachirō, who led Japan's forces to victory against Russia in the Russo-Japanese War, was an avid reader of The Art of War''.[13]
Communist Chinese leader Mao Zedong partially credited his victory over Chiang Kai-shek and the Kuomintang in 1949 to The Art of War. The work strongly influenced Mao's writings about guerrilla warfare, which further influenced communist insurgencies around the world.[12]
General Vo Nguyen Giap, the military mastermind behind victories over French and the American forces in Vietnam, was an avid student and practitioner of Sun Tzu’s ideas. America's defeat here, more than any other event, brought Sun Tzu to the attention of American military thought leaders. Ho Chi Minh translated the work for his Vietnamese officers to study. [14] [15]

So can we say that these principles are better applied to military applications or more general life situations ? Please give examples of why you believe your view. (Push and breathe deeply in Tai Chi movements !!). Any Feng Shui practioners ?

Qi (roughly pronounced as the sound 'chee' in English) is a movable positive or negative life force which plays an essential role in feng shui. In Chinese martial arts, it refers to 'energy', in the sense of 'life force' or élan vital. A traditional explanation of qi as it relates to feng shui would include the orientation of a structure, its age, and its interaction with the surrounding environment including the local microclimates, the slope of the land, vegetation, and soil quality.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

This one thread seems to have pinched all sorts of different sensitive spots amongst different people.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

was Sun Tzu a Taoist ?

I thought not, but what do I know ?

 

[Avi]

was Sun Tzu a Taoist ?

I thought not, but what do I know ?

Wiki says:

Sun Tzu (simplified Chinese: 孙子; traditional Chinese: 孫子; pinyin: Sūn Zǐ, pronounced [suən˥ tsz̩˨˩˦]), or Sun Wǔ,[1] was an ancient Chinese military general and strategist who is traditionally believed to have authored The Art of War, an influential ancient Chinese book on military strategy considered to be a prime example of Taoist thinking.

Sun Tzu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Returning to the topic of leadership, here is a very interesting passage from the same wiki on Sun Tzu:

One legend of Sun Tzu's life goes as follows: The king of Wu tested Sun Tzu's skills by commanding him to train a harem of 180 concubines into soldiers. Sun Tzu divided them into two companies, appointing the two concubines most favored by the king as the company commanders. When Sun Tzu first ordered the concubines to face right, they giggled. In response, Sun Tzu said that the general, in this case himself, was responsible for ensuring that soldiers understood the commands given to them. Then, he reiterated the command, and again the concubines giggled. Sun Tzu then ordered the execution of the king's two favored concubines, to the king's protests. He explained that if the general's soldiers understood their commands but did not obey, it was the fault of the officers. Sun Tzu also said that once a general was appointed, it was their duty to carry out their mission, even if the king protested. After both concubines were killed, new officers were chosen to replace them. Afterwards, both companies performed their maneuvers flawlessly.[3]

Now that is real leadership, to be able to out manuever his boss, everyone agree ?

 

[DrumR]

So can we say that these principles are better applied to military applications or more general life situations ? Please give examples of why you believe your view.

Greetings Qi1.
The 'Art of War' is a book of strategy applicable for all conflicts and potential conflicts. The battlefield and weaponry may, at first glance, appear different yet this would include diplomatic, business, and interpersonal relationships/negotiations. However the unwritten concepts, as found in the I Ching and Tao teh Ching, need also be factored into the complete whole.

Placing the enemy on unfamiliar ground, during a negotiation, may be as simple as a small amount of warm water on the seat of the chair for the 'enemy' to sit at at the negotiation table. Initially the warm water is not particularly noticed at seating but, as time wears on, the 'enemy' becomes aware of the small discomfort experienced and may become distracted from certain details. This may result in the loss of a, seemingly, small bargaining chip presently, but that small advantage has been gained for the long term.

Ambush techniques, by the simple act of agreeing with the 'enemy,' have often placed an opponent off guard in that one may subtly elicit from them an agreement on that which was was otherwise "out of the question."