Post Denominationalism

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Avi

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What is "Post Denominationalism" ?

BB, used this expresssion on a parallel thread:

<======================= http://www.interfaith.org/forum/reform-10886-9.html#post218884


I think this is a newly emerging movement within Judaism. I know congregations are starting what are "Trans denominational" or perhaps as BB called them "Post Denominationalism".

I remember once I was talking to a Chabad Rabbi and as we conversed he began to eye me as a possible congregant in his Shul. To dispell any possible misinterpretations on his part, I told him, "I am a Reform Jew". He responded immediately, "I am a Jew". His response told me that there are Jews and non-Jews, a simple digital divide. Is that the essense of "Post Denom.", we are all Jews ??

No time to go further in depth now, but a good idea for a later discussion.
 
I identify as post-denominational. I don't think most engaged Jews today identify with a particular denominational ideology. They may identify with a congregation that identifies with a denomination but that doesn't mean they identify with the denomination's ideology. I would like to see a Judaism that in some ways is more similar to what it was before denominations, a Judaism with far less centralized authority. My desire would be for a Judaism that can encompass just as much, if not more, than the present denominations do, in terms of diversity, in addition to reduced centralization.

My Jewish Learning: Non-Denominational & Post-Denominational
 
Dauer, that is an interesting link. It has a strong Reform perspective because that is the authors affiliation.

Here is another interesting resource I found:

Post Denominational Judaism

This group seems to be making an effort to be inclusive over the spectrum from Orthodox to Reform, however, is that really the possible ?

Here is a quote from the webpage:

Reform primarily look to the third covenant.
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Does that mean the Third Temple ? Is that really what Reform do ? I am Reform and I have not given much thought to that issue at all, hmmm.
 
Avi said:
I know congregations are starting what are "Trans denominational" or perhaps as BB called them "Post Denominationalism".
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really? i wasn't aware of anyone actually officially calling what they did post-denominational, or that it actually existed as a real label rather than a concept - that's rather annoying, as now i'm going to have to work out what they mean. i doubt they mean the same thing as i do. having read the link you posted, i think it's a little categorical - for example, i would argue that from a traditional point of view all three covenants are important and, moreover, that they are important to the reform and conservative movements as well, but in different ways. i don't think there's anything wrong with this. i do note, however, that he seems to restrict it to three and i think that there are some just-as-important covenants lurking around genesis, in particular the "covenant between the parts", which bear closer examination.

I remember once I was talking to a Chabad Rabbi and as we conversed he began to eye me as a possible congregant in his Shul.
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you sound surprised. chabad see all halakhic jews as their constituency - and if they can be persuaded to see the chabad approach as optimal, then so much the better. this is not at all my approach.

To dispell any possible misinterpretations on his part, I told him, "I am a Reform Jew". He responded immediately, "I am a Jew". His response told me that there are Jews and non-Jews, a simple digital divide.
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yes, but his divide is solely based on halakhic criteria, either you're born of a halakhically jewish mother or a halakhic convert, or you're not jewish. chabad (and many other varieties of orthodoxy) sees reform jews as jewish (providing they are halakhically so) but does not see reform judaism as judaism. for him, there is "Torah judaism" - anything else calling itself judaism is, quite simply, illegitimate and a downright lie, as much as "messianic" judaism is in the view of reform jews. he would concede everything to you as a jew and nothing to you as a reform jew, because to him it's an impossibility. needless to say, this is not a view i have sympathy with.

Is that the essense of "Post Denom.", we are all Jews ??
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in a way. i think it is closer to what dauer is saying, in that we all have our beliefs, practices and theology, but we don't identify first as foremost as members of a group, ask what beliefs and practices that group's members should be espousing and then proceed to espouse those beliefs and practices. i think we go with what works for us and do anything from ignore to struggle with the bits that don't. i think what i mean by post-denominational is that i'm not especially interested in what box you may or may not fit into, because i don't easily fit into one myself. i mean, i love the music and prayers at the shul i'm a member of, follow the halakhah, customs and mystical substructure but largely ignore the hashkafa in terms of owning a TV, inter-gender modesty, philosophy and relations with the outside world - but the sermons send me into anything from snorts of derision to splutters of rage. for my hashkafa, philosophy, approach to texts, social life and cultural activities, i go elsewhere within the community - and outside it. if i have a problem with something, i try to reconcile it, but i don't wish to impose my views on others, or try and get them all to be the same as me - life would be intolerable if everyone was a traditional baghdadi, although the food would probably be better. i take the view, like dauer, that

a Judaism that in some ways is more similar to what it was before denominations, a Judaism with far less centralized authority. My desire would be for a Judaism that can encompass just as much, if not more, than the present denominations do, in terms of diversity, in addition to reduced centralization.
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that, for me, would end the endless sterile debate about who's right, who's wrong, who's a heretic, who's flying in the face of archaeological evidence, who is abasing themselves cravenly before scientific positivism and so on. the sooner we can understand that we're all on the same side and want the good of not only ourselves but the whole of humanity and that we all have a part to play in the great ecosystem of belief, the better.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Avi,

that site looks to me as if it's the personal site of a particular rabbi who may or may not have some following. I haven't heard of him but I also haven't googled him.

This group seems to be making an effort to be inclusive over the spectrum from Orthodox to Reform, however, is that really the possible ?
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I think so. I said a couple of years ago that both for financial reasons and ideological reasons it would make sense to me that congregations of various denominations come together in one building, davven in separate minyanim as much as is necessary -- even have different rabbis -- but come together for kiddush and other community events. There is a shul near me that does that without any rabbi. They have both traditional egal and mechitza minyanim.

The rabbinical school at Hebrew College accepts people from all denominational backgrounds and places them in all sorts of communities both on and off the denom-spectrum as well as in non-pulpit settings. While they haven't yet had any Orthodox students -- they have had inquiries from prospective O students -- they're entirely open to taking them in and providing them with a proper Yorei Deah education -- a few people have already completed that more standard course of study electively despite having no interest in the Orthodox rabbinate. The only thing HC won't compromise on in that regard is egalitarianism within the school for both prayer and study. I think officially HC refers to itself as trans-denominational rather than post-denominational, but in this case there seems to be little difference.

So is it possible to be that inclusive? I'd like to think so, but I don't think that it's necessary for us all to find a cookie-cut common ground for the way we live our lives either. We can agree to disagree and allow for as much diversity as we need without cutting up reality in arbitrary places, constructing walls to prevent some greater Jewish unity. There is an implicit ideology behind such agreeable disagreement, one that those on the far right and far left of the so-called denominational spectrum might protest. So be it. It's a far more tolerant and inclusivist ideology than that professed by any of the denominations.
 
dauer said:
So is it possible to be that inclusive? I'd like to think so, but I don't think that it's necessary for us all to find a cookie-cut common ground for the way we live our lives either. We can agree to disagree and allow for as much diversity as we need without cutting up reality in arbitrary places, constructing walls to prevent some greater Jewish unity. There is an implicit ideology behind such agreeable disagreement, one that those on the far right and far left of the so-called denominational spectrum might protest. So be it. It's a far more tolerant and inclusivist ideology than that professed by any of the denominations.
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i agree. the thing actually which bothers me about the site that avi linked to is that he has, to my way of thinking, an extremely *non*-post-denominational approach to zionism and israel. until he understands that people who disagree with him on this subject (and he is, if you ask me, rather right-wing) are not self-hating traitors, i will be less than impressed with any claim he makes to have transcended denomination. it doesn't work for the satmars, to start with!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Can someone explain what 'denominatation' means to Judaism?

Are Orthodox thru Renewal denominations? To me that is like going from ultra conservative to liberal...in Christianity we've got hundred variations of each...
 
Wil,

some people prefer to divide the denominations in that way but I think there's a lot more nuance. Generally those who see it as that sort of spectrum can make sense for themselves of Orthodoxy (don't differentiate between types of Orthodoxy any more than Modern and Ultra-Orthodox or you might confuse some of them), Conservative and Reform Judaism. Renewal and Recon don't fit as well. Recon is theologically and ideologically in many ways further to the left than Reform Judaism, but they don't have as strong an emphasis on individualism preferring to focus a bit more on community. What makes individualism or naturalism or regarding the mitzvot as folkways more liberal anyway? Recon's embrace of community isn't more conservative than Reform's individualism and regarding the supernaturalism that Reform usually has in mind vs Recon's naturalism, the whole talk about degrees of liberalism doesn't make much sense to me.

Christian sects vary from Jewish denominations because by and large we all regard each other as Jewish. We may not regard each other as practicing Judaism or as practicing it correctly, but that we're Jewish isn't much of an issue. It's becoming more of an issue for some in part because of patrilineal descent.
 
"denomination" is used, generally, by the non-orthodox movements. orthodoxy isn't pluralist, would deny there is such a thing as denominations and prefers to use the self-serving phrase "Torah judaism" to describe itself and anything to the religious right, whereas anything to the religious left would be "heretical" or "heterodox" or some other unpleasant phrase. the non-orthodox movements would consider orthodoxy a denomination made up of various sects, from liberal "modern orthodox" to the ultra-religious like the various hasidic traditions. "denomination" is a word that really comes from christian ecumenical tradition - it doesn't sit entirely well with us. personally, i dislike it for this reason alone among the various others given above.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Namaste and thanx to Dauer and BB for their perspectives and information.

So your orthodox, is similar to our orthodox or fundamental...my way or the highway.

Now I know Islam also has their ortho sects, I'm wondering out loud if in each belief system their are the ortho's looking down their collective noses at the rest.

And in Islam and Christianity we also have the radical orthos that most consider are really not and really are beyond the religion...do you have the same in Judaism?
 
wil said:
So your orthodox, is similar to our orthodox or fundamental...my way or the highway.
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not only the orthodox! the majority of the ideologues (and quite a few of the membership) of the non-orthodox movements feel exactly the same way!

Now I know Islam also has their ortho sects, I'm wondering out loud if in each belief system their are the ortho's looking down their collective noses at the rest.
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for every sneering proponent of "Torah judaism" there is a correspondent "progressive" looking down his/her nose at the 'obscurantist, backward mediaevalists of blind faith and meaningless, casuistical ritual'.

And in Islam and Christianity we also have the radical orthos that most consider are really not and really are beyond the religion...do you have the same in Judaism?
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we have radicals of all stripes, left and right, as well as other odd fish - what exactly are you getting at?

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
not only the orthodox! the majority of the ideologues (and quite a few of the membership) of the non-orthodox movements feel exactly the same way!....what exactly are you getting at?
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I realize you are right, most folks do believe they have the corner on the one and only truth and the one and only way to connect with source...tis a shame.

I'm not 'getting at' anything just contemplating...sorting things out as I am understanding the discussion.
 
I should follow my instinct and stay out of this discussion because I have such a simply view to share. I think that Judiasm is not a religion, so there would not be such separations as denominations. Different practices yes, different ways of life yes, but all go back to a central teaching and an ancient line of wisdom that is to be carried forward. I call myself Hawaiian not because I was born on the Hawaiian Islands (because many people are born there that are not Hawaiian) but because I follow an ancient line of thought and wisdom that I have a responsibility to perpetuate in order to insure the survival of a particular seed of knowledge. Judiasm holds my focus and attention because of what I think I see in the OT and certain practices of life that link to what I know about things Hawaiian .... and here I speak of ancient things, the messages in ancient chants, legends, and the language itself. The concept of the return of the messiah (or whatever name one uses), the rebuilding of the third temple, and most importantly the regathering. I don't even have to be Jewish to have a deep respect for what knowledge is held deep within. And yes, in my view, there are others. We may take different paths, but when we get to the top of the mountain, we all see the same moon. The sun rises and the sun sets, waiting for us to find that ancient path. Denominations are no more than different paths to the same place. Some of us walk together,some of us walk alone. Doesn't matter as long as we keep walking. I remember a dream from long ago when I woke with the words "open your eyes and see with your soul". The temple was never really destroyed, no stones have been removed, most of us just can't see it right now .... but we will. Orthodox, reform, whatever .... don't we all seek the same thing .... the regathering, the temple, and rebuilding that world of peace. We live in such a material world looking for the arc of the covenant, laying claim to a physical mound .... all literal intepretations of the ancient words .... the top of the mountain in hawaiian is called "waoakua" - the wilderness, a wild place, difficult to access by man, the wilderness of the gods .... it is a physical place, but it is also a spiritual place that cannot be seen with the physical eyes. We have a special torch called "ka-lama" or the night light that leads us there .... and yes it is a physical torch, but also an internal light that isn't seen with the physical eyes. Right or wrong, this is how I see the rebuilding of the temple .... one by one we rebuild and remember who we really are. Denominations will fall to the wayside and the people of the book will remember why they were chosen and what they carry. Just my thoughts to share. he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine "poh"
 
We have a special torch called "ka-lama" or the night light that leads us there .... and yes it is a physical torch, but also an internal light that isn't seen with the physical eyes.
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you might be interested in the kabbalistic concept of the "botzina de-kardenuta".

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
wil said:
Can someone explain what 'denominatation' means to Judaism?

Are Orthodox thru Renewal denominations? To me that is like going from ultra conservative to liberal...in Christianity we've got hundred variations of each...
Click to expand...


I think denomination may not be the correct word but more movements within Judaism.

Denomination is more a Christian word I think.

I don't affiliate with any movement but I do feel closer to the renewal movement.

So there are the Reform, Conservative, Renewal, Orthodox, Ultra Orthodox.
Even within the Orthodox there are different groups.
 
bob x said:
"Denomination" is a purely generic word, from the root meaning "to name"; any group that is called by some specific name is a "denomination".
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The different sects or denominations of Judaism are generally referred to as movements.

Movements of Judaism
The different sects or denominations of Judaism are generally referred to as movements. There are basically 4 major ones in the world today: Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative and Orthodox. Orthodox, and sometimes Conservative are described as "traditional" movements. Reform, Reconstructionist, and sometimes Conservative are described as "liberal" or "modern" movements.
 
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