Theosophy - Open Discussion

[Avi]

Does Theosophy have an emphasis on racial differences ?

Does Theosophy examine racial issues in an objective, scientific manner ?

Lets take a look at some of Nick's and Bruce's posts in the Esoteric sub-forum:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<=============== http://www.interfaith.org/forum/are-theosophy-and-anthroposophy-religions-8258-5.html#post219689

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<============== http://www.interfaith.org/forum/are-theosophy-and-anthroposophy-religions-8258-5.html#post219690

It would be inappropriate for me to criticize Bruce's and Nick's "faith" in the Esoteric sub-forum. But in this neutral forum it is appropriate to question their motives.

So, are these posts based on healing racial differences or highlighting these differences ?

 

[iBrian]

The posts highlighted seem focused on stages of civilisation, rather than any actual "race" as is used ordinarily used.

 

[Dogbrain]

Blavatsky, however, did use "race" in the way that "race" is generally used. She did not use it as a substitute for "stage". Otherwise, she'd not have claimed that modern-day Arabs are "degenerate Aryans" or go so far as to claim to have identified various ethnic groups as living relics of the various former races.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

This is what happens when the concept of race is limited to biological and or geographical explainations.

 

[Avi]

We are not focused on racial differences Avi, rather we are concerned with Universal Brotherhood. Now you can try to understand or actively misunderstand- it's your choice.

Here is the problem that I have with Theosophy, Bruce. I see multiple levels of distinction:

1) The races are divided and strongly distinuished,

2) The basis for this division / distinction is not based on biological, biochemical, physiological or anthropological distinction. It is based on some arbitrary, occult based strategy,

3) The next step in the development of these ideas leads to assignment of labels of "superiority" and "inferiority" of these various races,

4) These distinctions were not done thousands of years ago, when some of the traditional religions also had these biased ideas because they were primative people, they were done in the early part of the twentieth century, when people should have known better. That is why I suspect the Madame of some bad behavior,

5) This emphasis on racial division leads to political leaders with bad intentions incorporating these arbitrary ideas of racial superiority into a genocidal program against "inferior" races,

6) Understanding this background and history, why would anyone want to be a follower of this philosophy ? I suspect a hidden agenda.

If you came to a theosophical society wishing to give a talk on Jewish Mysticism, for instance, you'd find the podium was open to you (particularly in the Adyar Society). In fact the Star of David is there carved in wood on the wall, in some of the lecture halls - along with the symbols of the other major religions.

Sure you are interested in Jewish mysticism. How about Jewish ethics and racial equality, any interest in those topics ? I don't sense a lot of interest from you.

Speaking from my own understanding there are twelve prototypical races (some give seven). There are twelve because the correspond to the Zodiac influences- just as the Twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve knights of the Round Table. The times of the Cultural Epochs (or Subraces) relate to, but do not correspond to the Zodiac Ages (Age of Aquarius, Age of Aries etc.).

Bruce, I think you are in a dream world, and unfortunately if you had been a German Jew in the 1930's (in one of your past lives), this little fun game you are playing would not have been so funny.

Just as one cannot say that one particular Zodiac sign is better than another, so it is with the races. They are different but complement each other. Nature loves variety- and so do I.

I suspect this is a subterfuge for your real feelings about racial inequality.

 

[Avi]

We are not focused on racial differences Avi, rather we are concerned with Universal Brotherhood.

Bruce, please give us your thoughts on this article:

The link between Theosophy and Nazism

Now we get to the sticky part. The historical link between theosophy and nazism can't be denied, unfortunately. Guido Karl Anton (von) List read the Secret Doctrine and adapted many of its ideas to a Nationalist Esoteric German vision of world history. He turned Blavatsky's universal vision about humanity as a whole into a nationalist (German centric) racist theory in which the German race was seen as superior to all other races. None of this is in Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine. Blavatsky did have a view of mankind and what she called 'races', but the Western 'race' (not German per se) wasn't so much superior as the latest. Blavatsky felt that the Indian race, though older, was more spiritual. But in the history of ideas there is still a link from Blavatsky to List, because the latter read her work. Then there's a link from von List to Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels. Then there is a link from Liebenfels to Adolf Hitler himself.
The most important part is in chapter 15 where Goodrick-Clarke examines the links between Adolf Hitler, von List and Lanz von Liebenfels. It turns out to be pretty certain that Hitler was influenced by Lanz von Liebenfels when he lived in Vienna. This fact was never publicly acknowledged by him and groups directly affiliated with the occult realm were consistently prosecuted in Nazi Germany, like other lodge-based organisations (including the Theosophical Society and Freemasonry).

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/faq/ariosophy.html

 

[Avi]

These are the dates (by Steiner) (I haven't double checked, but they look OK):
7893 BC Ancient Indian 5733 BC > Ancient Persian Epoch 2970 BC > Egypto- Chaldean 747BC > 4th- Greco-Roman Epoch > 1413 AD > 5th Present > 3573 AD

Hi Bruce,

Here is another Theosophy source that I would like your thoughts on. I am not sure about the authenticity of this website, it is sort of like the fun references you have provided:

HELENA PETROVNA BLAVATSKY: ONE EXTRA-LARGE MEDIUM

 

[shawn]

Very good find there Avi

 

[Avi]

Very good find there Avi

Just trying to exchange some "fun' stuff and ideas with Bruce and Nick !

There seems to be a wealth of information available about Thesosophy, I look forward to sharing with everyone !!

 

[Dream]

Avi, that is a nicely researched page. Lots of notes about things, so you can check out their references. Lots of research on M. Blavatsky, and I'm surprised at the general approach to occult on this Christian site. No fear mongering, and a very rational tone when discussing Masonry & Wicca.

 

[iBrian]

Avi, we've already seen in recent discussions that Mdme Blavatsky's writings were an influence on Nazi ideology.

We've also seen in recent discussions that Charles Darwin's writings were an influence on Nazi ideology.

In both instances, the original writings were not the direct source of inspiration, but were instead re-interpreted by a third-party into a form the Nazi's could use (whether intentionally of unintentionally) - Anton von List for Blavatsky, and Galton for Darwin.

The case against Darwin is actually quite damning if you follow your own logic - Darwin was clearly influenced by the supremacist ideology of the time that saw European "whites" as racially superior to black-skinned Africans, and that the continued promotion of the Theory of Evolution as actually fundamentally the promotion of racism and denigration of non-whites as science.

Darwin and his "survival of the fittest" mantra continues to be used today by "white supremacy" groups as ideological justification for their stance - Blavatsky does not appear to be cited as a major influence on most of these groups.

The Nazi's pilfered and wrote as their own a whole range of occult ideas and symbols - they were reportedly obsessed with finding Christian relics (Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark plays on this) and the blazing symbol on the Nazi flag is from Hinduism.

Speaking of Hinduism - does India not have it's own institutional racism in the form of the caste system? Isn't that based original on expounding an ideal of light skinned people being racially superior?

It's not the only one - Shinto immediately comes to mind as having ideas of racial supremacy at heart. Where do you think Japanese ideas such as disdain for weaker people's surrendering, and kamikaze come from? Certainly not from secularism.

Should we therefore also suggest all Indians and Japanese are racist, and should be combated on the internet?

To play devils advocate for the sake of balance, Judaism includes among key statutes such as:

1. Jews are still obliged to massacre any native inhabitants of Palestine
2. Jews are chosen by God above all others

Thus you have a perfect mix of racial superiority and justified genocide as pillars of faith in Judaism, and these are exemplified in the past century's warring and humiliation of the Palestinians, right?

Of course not - it is how someone outside of a group could easily misinterpret and misrepresent those inside - but this I feel is the argument that you are making against the Theosophy Society.

Unless there are any references to the modern incarnation of the Theosophy Society that prove that its key tenets involve promotion of a blue-eyed blonde superior race to the denigration of all others (using references to "race" in a way used in ordinary language), and that the modern Theosophy Society's mission remains to promote Neo-nazi ideals of racism, then I can't see any criticism and denigration of their philosophy on these grounds as valid.

 

[Avi]

Avi, we've already seen in recent discussions that Mdme Blavatsky's writings were an influence on Nazi ideology.

Right, Brian, so far we are in full agreement,.

We've also seen in recent discussions that Charles Darwin's writings were an influence on Nazi ideology.

Not really, Brian, although this was the argument that Nick tried to put forward, it was a weak one to anyone who knows anything about Darwin. His contributions were not in the area of social engineering, which the Madame was seeking to influence, but in the field of evolution, which he invented. There have been so many proofs of evolution since the time of Darwin that it is unnecessary for me to even give an example. We all know that his scientific contributions were fundamental, in the same league as Einstein. Are you suggesting the same of the Madame .

Also, Nick's recent foray into Darwin bashing also makes me wonder whether he is a closet creationist as well. This is an idea for further consideration.

In both instances, the original writings were not the direct source of inspiration, but were instead re-interpreted by a third-party into a form the Nazi's could use (whether intentionally of unintentionally) - Anton von List for Blavatsky, and Galton for Darwin.

This is a red herring. Nick and Bruce still quote much of the racial rhetoric of the Madame, even without the middlemen. Just look at their posts which I have linked in this thread.

The case against Darwin is actually quite damning if you follow your own logic - Darwin was clearly influenced by the supremacist ideology of the time that saw European "whites" as racially superior to black-skinned Africans, and that the continued promotion of the Theory of Evolution as actually fundamentally the promotion of racism and denigration of non-whites as science.

Not really, Brian, if you look at the science you see an all star mind in action.

Darwin and his "survival of the fittest" mantra continues to be used today by "white supremacy" groups as ideological justification for their stance - Blavatsky does not appear to be cited as a major influence on most of these groups.

This is the best analogy you have given so far. "White supremacy" and Theosophy, we might have to give that further consideration.

The Nazi's pilfered and wrote as their own a whole range of occult ideas and symbols - they were reportedly obsessed with finding Christian relics (Indiana Jones and the Lost Ark plays on this) and the blazing symbol on the Nazi flag is from Hinduism.

I think you and I would be in agreement about the illegal and irreprehensible acts of the Nazi's. Not sure where Nick and Bruce stand. I suspect they would use a few weasle words but I might have some doubts about a hidden agenda.

Speaking of Hinduism - does India not have it's own institutional racism in the form of the caste system? Isn't that based original on expounding an ideal of light skinned people being racially superior?

I am not in a position to defend Hindu with respect to their racial views. But I can tell you that every Hindu I have spoken to in the US is quite enlightened about this topic, not in he same league as Nick and Bruce.

It's not the only one - Shinto immediately comes to mind as having ideas of racial supremacy at heart. Where do you think Japanese ideas such as disdain for weaker people's surrendering, and kamikaze come from? Certainly not from secularism.

Same story as Hindu, any my experience with practioners of Eastern beliefs in the US has indicated more enlightenment.

Should we therefore also suggest all Indians and Japanese are racist, and should be combated on the internet?

No

To play devils advocate for the sake of balance, Judaism includes among key statutes such as:

1. Jews are still obliged to massacre any native inhabitants of Palestine

You are starting this part of your argument from a position of weakness by admitting you are playing devils advocate. That means you will later reject these positions yourself.

Of course this is not the position of Jews or Israel. However Israel must be very careful not to repress inhabitants of the occupied territories, for example the recent incursion into Gaza left a lot of questions which need to be answered.

2. Jews are chosen by God above all others

We discussed this at length on the earlier Theosophy thread which was initiated by Nick. I suspect he was hoping the idea of "Chosen-ness" could be used to support his own ideas of racial superiority.

Thus you have a perfect mix of racial superiority and justified genocide as pillars of faith in Judaism, and these are exemplified in the past century's warring and humiliation of the Palestinians, right?

Wrong.

Of course not - it is how someone outside of a group could easily misinterpret and misrepresent those inside - but this I feel is the argument that you are making against the Theosophy Society.

Not at all Brian, you are misrepresenting my argument. I have repeatedly asked Nick and Bruce to step away from ideas of racial superiority put forward in the original ideas by the Madame. The usual response is about elves and fairies and 60 foot giants.

Unless there are any references to the modern incarnation of the Theosophy Society that prove that its key tenets involve promotion of a blue-eyed blonde superior race to the denigration of all others (using references to "race" in a way used in ordinary language), and that the modern Theosophy Society's mission remains to promote Neo-nazi ideals of racism, then I can't see any criticism and denigration of their philosophy on these grounds as valid.

Organizations which believe in racial superiority are always reluctant to admit this in public and you know this Brian. It has taken a great deal of discussion with Nick and Bruce to have little sparks of insight about their true racial beliefs.

It seems that they do not wish to enter an open discussion about Theosophy, this is unfortunate. However we can continue to analyze their views about racial issues right here in this thread.

 

[Dogbrain]

Darwin was not founding some organization that claimed to propound ancient, unchanging, and eternal truths. Darwin was attempting to provide a biological explanation for the diversity of species, and biology is inherently subject to revision, change, and alteration. Biologists do not reread the writings of Darwin in some mystical attempt to elucidate "hidden truths" (or any truths at all) in his writing. Darwin is only read for historical interest among biologists--or by those biologists who have taken it upon themselves to joust with people who would misrepresent evolution theory. Likewise, biologists have happily discarded whatever parts of Darwin's work turn out not have been borne out by later evidence. We don't backpedal to claim that he didn't write what he wrote. Did Darwin espouse incorrect ideas? Yes. Does that mean that evolution theory is necessarily incorrect? No, because evolution theory is not the same thing as Darwinism.

 

[Avi]

For those interested in the 134 year old history of the theosophical movement, there is no better resource than this website Theosophical History
The Theosophical History magazine is in its 23rd year and is now headed by Dr. James Santucci who is ably assisted by a brilliant team of academics from around the world.

Bruce, thanks for the link.

I found another resource that is quite interesting. It indicates that the ideas about racial inferiority which were first proposed in early Theosophy are still prevalent in todays thinking. The relates to the rationale that Brian was seeking for a contemporary relationship to rascism.

The author is at a well known university in Sweden :

Views from the Great White Brotherhood : A study concerning notions about race in the teachings of the Theosophical Society and the Rosicrucian Fellowship

University essay from Högskolan i Kalmar/Humanvetenskapliga institutionen

Author: Karen Swartz; [2009]
Keywords: Theosophical Society; Rosicrucian Fellowship; Esotericism; Occultism; Cosmotheism; racism;



Abstract: The nineteenth century witnessed a great deal interest in Esotericism, which resulted in the creation of a significant number of Occult organizations. Many of them were influenced by the Theosophical Society, arguably the most important of the groups that came into existence before the Great War, a further example being the Rosicrucian Fellowship. The writings of these two organizations’ primary founders contain teachings about race that were influenced by beliefs concerning the inferiority of certain peoples that were prevalent at the time. While this is often acknowledged in academic studies, the matter is largely marginalized.
The aim of this paper is to investigate how these teachings reinforce preexisting ideas about race. The findings indicate that this is partially achieved through the use of language and partially by presenting the notions within the context of a cosmology which casts inequalities found in society as part of an evolutionary process in which any atrocities committed by a dominant group are seen as merely hastening a divinely instituted chain of events that is already in motion. This matter is relevant to the present time because these beliefs are part of living traditions and because it is arguable that the racist discourse which shaped them in the first place is still just as influential today.

ESSAYS.SE: Views from the Great White Brotherhood : A study concerning notions about race in the teachings of the Theosophical Society and the Rosicrucian Fellowship

The full text of this paper is available on the link provided, I am reviewing that now and will provide more excerpts as needed.

 

[Raksha]

Hi Bruce,

Here is another Theosophy source that I would like your thoughts on. I am not sure about the authenticity of this website, it is sort of like the fun references you have provided:

HELENA PETROVNA BLAVATSKY: ONE EXTRA-LARGE MEDIUM

Avi,

Please don't trust anything from this source--not on Theosophy or anything else. For comparison, check out the section on Wicca. It's horrible! There is the same snarky tone as the section on Theosophy. Worse than that, the author quotes from second- and third-rate sources as if they were somehow authoritative. THEY ARE NOT!

Also, he or she focuses on Gerald Gardner...what a GREAT straw man! While Gerald Gardner may have been the first self-proclaimed Witch to go public in England, he isn't very important or influential in contemporary Paganism. But his well-known sexual kinks make him a perennial target for professional debunkers like whoever authored this website. Also a much-too-easy target, because he's not very influential these days.

Oh yes...and then there's Aleister Crowley!!! Anyone, anything you can possibly associate with Crowley is immediately guilty by association, because Crowley really WAS an unscrupulous, unbalanced buttwipe, no question about it. However, to smear the original Golden Dawn because Crowley was a member is adding insult to injury. The truth is that Aleister Crowley destroyed the Golden Dawn! For the sake of my favorite poet William Butler Yeats (also a member of the Theosophical Society), I will never forgive him for that.

I still have no idea whether there is anything inherently anti-Semitic in the Theosophical teachings or not. That's what I've been reading these threads to try and determine myself. I'm just saying don't trust anything from this particular source, because the author clearly has an agenda. I'm not sure what it is yet, but I suspect it's fundamentalist Christianity.

B'shalom,
Linda

 

[iBrian]

Avi, indeed, I'm misrepresenting the argument re: Judaism - but I'm simply trying to show your own argument as it appears to apply to Theosophy.

You did not seem particularly aware of them before I raised the Nazi issue in the first place, yet now you feel you are an expert on their hidden racist intentions - I can't buy that, as you haven't added anything new to the discussion that shows the TS are indeed as you claim.

You dismiss as fantasy the reference to giants, but these are sourced directly from Genesis - I do find it ironic that you are derisive of this.

The counterpoint about Darwin's influence on the Nazi's is something a number of faith movements raise (Islam especially, Christianity to some degree) - and indeed are ridiculous points - but my reading is that you are following exactly the seem strategy against the TS.

(And, dogbrain, you seem to have missed out the analogy above to misreading Judaism, and also the pointer that the TS seems to have also evolved).

If the TS is indeed a secret vehicle for a racist agenda as we understand it in modern terms, then I'm be happy to reconsider how much involvement IO should allow with TS and its writings.

But so far I've seen no proof that this is what the modern TS is about - instead there are nuances and outside criticisms and historical references to their formative history, and those who misused their interests. I want to see proof, not suspicions and inferences. If indeed you're right, Avi, then it will come out soon enough - but I think trying to keep whipping up the subject is not going to lead to anything constructive.

Simply how I read the situation.

 

[shawn]

I have read bits and pieces of theosophical literature over the years and I personally see it as an attempt to piece together a lot of scattered ancient info with other more recent bits (from the past few centuries) into a whole tapestry.
(I appreciate hearing about how Blavatsky was a con artist)
It has always seemed to me like a work of fiction, like all of our info on the past is.
A patchwork quilt which has been heavily embroidered to make a good story.
I never really picked up on the racist bits, maybe as my perspective doesn't take such twaddle into consideration as I see all people as just that ..... people.

 

[Raksha]

ESSAYS.SE: Views from the Great White Brotherhood : A study concerning notions about race in the teachings of the Theosophical Society and the Rosicrucian Fellowship

The full text of this paper is available on the link provided, I am reviewing that now and will provide more excerpts as needed.

Avi,

This is a much better link. In fact, there is no comparison with the one I cited in my previous note. I downloaded the thesis and read the first few pages, and I can already see where the author is headed and why.

In a nutshell: ALL 19th Century thinking is so permeated with racism, or what we now call racism, that it should come as no suprise that 19th Century esotericism was also be tainted with racism. Don't forget that this was the heyday of the British Empire and colonialism. It stands to reason that the middle class would be looking for excuses to look down their noses at the proletariat. This motivation would most likely be completely unconscious.

 

[Avi]

Avi,
Please don't trust anything from this source--not on Theosophy or anything else. For comparison, check out the section on Wicca. It's horrible! There is the same snarky tone as the section on Theosophy. Worse than that, the author quotes from second- and third-rate sources as if they were somehow authoritative. THEY ARE NOT!

Linda, after reading this source further, I tend to agree with you, it is not reliable. In my original post I said I was not certain of its autheticity, but I tend to agree with your comments. However it did make me think further about some of the other Theosophers: Besant, Leadbeater, Steiner and Bailey. It will be interesting to see what else we can find out about these folks.

I still have no idea whether there is anything inherently anti-Semitic in the Theosophical teachings or not. That's what I've been reading these threads to try and determine myself. I'm just saying don't trust anything from this particular source, because the author clearly has an agenda. I'm not sure what it is yet, but I suspect it's fundamentalist Christianity.

I think you are right.

 

[Avi]

as you haven't added anything new to the discussion that shows the TS are indeed as you claim.

I have provided more links to reliable reference materials than Nick or Bruce. The last reference, from the University in Sweden, I provided, addresses your specific earlier point. It explains that there is a link from the racist ideas of their day to those of today, because much of the same racism still exists. This is a very valid point and underscores my argument.

You dismiss as fantasy the reference to giants, but these are sourced directly from Genesis - I do find it ironic that you are derisive of this.

We discussed this in detail in the earlier thread with Nick and Seattlegal, but as a quick summary, I do not believe that Torah refers to 60 foot giants. Further, the issues around the Nepthalim are strongly related to psychological barriers that the Jews faced when they considered retaking Jerico. I will be glad to provide the exact link if needed.

If the TS is indeed a secret vehicle for a racist agenda as we understand it in modern terms, then I'm be happy to reconsider how much involvement IO should allow with TS and its writings.

Brian, you have not seen me recommend censoring any group or individual. I think we learn a lot from open discussion of the principles of groups like the Theosophers. Even if we do not like what we learn about them.

I want to see proof, not suspicions and inferences. If indeed you're right, Avi, then it will come out soon enough -

Proof of this type is not always readily available. Hate groups know how to disguise themselves to keep themselves under the radar. Also, the burden of proof is not on me, Brian, we all have to decide for ourselves what we think about Theosophy.