Ezekiel.

[17th Angel]

Please, help me get my head around this....

Watching a UFO documentary lol.. Don't worry, I am not asking about aliens or spaceships or anything.... But, they Quote Ezekiel (10:9) In their.... support of spaceships lol.... And I was curious to what the symbolism was actually meant to mean?

-I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like chrysolite.-

What are the wheels all about? I guess this also ties up with Eze 1:15.

-Now as I looked at the living beings, behold, there was one wheel on the earth beside the living beings, for each of the four of them-

I know the bible loves it's imagery to explain/describe... So.... What do they represent? lol Thanks in advance.


XVII

 

[17th Angel]

No one knows what the freaking wheels are all about?????

 

[bananabrain]

you need to ask a kabbalist. wheels - "ofanim" are a type of angel. think of them as a sort of waterwheel bringing prayers up from the lower worlds and Divine energy down from the higher worlds.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

Thank you for the reply.

So, the wheels, are apart of the four angels anatomy? Drawing payers from lower worlds and energy from higher worlds. Never heard of these? Where could more information be found on that? Or is this another way of saying heaven and hell? But, why would prayers come from hell... :/

 

[Dream]

17th, you should watch the movie Knowing. There is a scene where the spinning wheels from Ezekiel are painted in with all kinds of special effects. Instead of angels, they are space aliens! I really enjoyed the movie. It is the classic - UFO/alien/Bible/angels movie to set the standard for all future ones. Totally Bizarre! Absolutely no connection with the text but far more interesting than a UFO documentary. I know you watch movies, so go see it. Don't take the kids, because it deals with grownup concepts of death.

 

[17th Angel]

Dream,

Thank you for the reply... See, there it is again... The UFO connection.... I don't 'get it', how four wheels can be confused for spaceships? The documentary I watched last night (Ancient Aliens) Was reaching... It had some very interesting points... And ideas I can consider and wonder on, but 99.9% of the bible references were just nuh uh's... They didn't click with me.... One guy was funny as hell... He did my PET HATE. "Oh man.. The bible? There are hundreds of references to alien spaceships!" Then did not go on to back up this claim no support for it lol..... Just take his word on it.... Sheesh.

Someone else went on to describe about four.... Not hundreds but four... Parts in the bible that could be alien spaceships... Only one of them I thought hmm... Anyway! lol sorry... Ezekiel! Knowing? I saw that a while back......

Knowing (2009) Yeah? It could be my memory... But I didn't see the four wheels? You sure? *thinks hard* *fiddles with a small smooth black pebble as he ponders* Nah I can't recall....

Dream... btw, You know of these upper worlds and lower worlds?

 

[Dream]

Dream... btw, You know of these upper worlds and lower worlds?

Bananabrain answered it really well. I have read Ezekiel and attended lectures (one or two) about Ezekiel, the symbols in Ezekiel. I am no kabbalist, but I can argue its got nothing to do with UFO's. Nobody really knows what Ezekiel is for, except that its concerned with right living, bottom line.

The prophet begins with social problems, people being murdered and oppressed by the leaders, bad things happening, and then he gets a vision of a HUGE temple! Well this doesn't make sense at first, because what good is a huge facility? B-BIG plans for a new temple that is literally the size of a small state, and measurements tall enough to reach into outer space! It is not about concrete and stones, or the writer has forgotten what he's writing about. Ezekiel is about, as Jesus would say, the kingdom of God filling everything and everyone, and that is what the ginormous temple is. To Jesus it was a mustard seed that became a huge tree. In the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, the kingdom of God is a small stone that becomes a mountain to fill the whole earth. Ok, in Ezekiel it is a temple that fills the land. Don't these sound like the same thing? Underlying all of it is the understanding that people are the true temple. Where are the UFO's? There aren't any UFO's in Ezekiel. All you have in Ezekiel is faith that God's light shines down to improve things, and that is the meaning of the upper world as far as I know. There is a strident belief that things will get better, that our world will become better.

 

[bananabrain]

So, the wheels, are apart of the four angels anatomy? Drawing payers from lower worlds and energy from higher worlds.

the wheels *are* the angels, or the angels are wheels. as for more information, you need to find some kabbalistic commentaries on the ma'aseh merkavah or "account of the chariot".

Or is this another way of saying heaven and hell?

no.

The UFO connection.... I don't 'get it', how four wheels can be confused for spaceships?

presumably people are thinking in terms of flying saucers. i suppose it takes all sorts.

Nobody really knows what Ezekiel is for

that's really not the case. the first couple of chapters are a comprehensive, step-by-step guide to mystical experience. it is a core text in kabbalah and requires extensive, painstaking study. of course, this is not the most obvious thing in the world and the number one reason that in our tradition, you need a teacher and guide.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bob x]

The "cherubim", whose Aramaic form keruwviyn (Aramaic uses -iyn where Hebrew uses -iym for masculine plural) became Greek gruphon and Latin griffin, were not bare-butt baby boys as depicted by Renaissance artists, but rather beasts with the hind-parts of a bull (Taurus), fore-parts of a lion (Leo), wings of an eagle (Scorpio, perceived as a bird in the Near East), and face of a man (Aquarius) representing the Zodiacal signs which were the equinoxes and solstices in the period 4000-2000 BCE. The "seraphim", literally "burners", were dragons representing the circumpolar stars (the North Pole was in Draco, not Ursa Minor, back then) which never rise or set. Thus, the cherubim symbolize those aspects of creation which undergo periodic changes, while the seraphim symbolize what remains constant and unvarying. This is why the cherubim are marked with "wheels", which might better be translated "cycles" in this context. No no no, there is nothing about "spaceships" here.

 

[Dream]

that's really not the case. the first couple of chapters are a comprehensive, step-by-step guide to mystical experience. it is a core text in kabbalah and requires extensive, painstaking study. of course, this is not the most obvious thing in the world and the number one reason that in our tradition, you need a teacher and guide.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Glad to hear that somebody has a lasso around it. I think what I desired was a general idea of what Ezekiel wasn't and a way to demonstrate that it wasn't. There are many people building prestige and collecting money, just from talking baloney about Ezekiel.

It seems to me there is disagreement between most Jews and Jesus about the need for a personal guide. You have 'Rabbis', and you have spiritual 'Guides'. Christians were told not to call anyone master. This seems like a major departure between the two traditions.

 

[Dogbrain]

The UFO schtick for Ezekiel is a pop culture version of the "naturalist" school of Biblical pseudoexegesis. This is the practice of inventing "natural explanations" for the various fantastic events within the Bible. I think it's a load of hooey. If I'm going to believe, then I'm going to believe the miraculous events happened as miraculous events and not try to weasel-mind around the issues. It's far more honest and moral to simply conclude that the fantastic events in the Bible are either simply false or are true but beyond the scope of nature than to go through all kinds of convolutions to make up scenarios that give "natural" explanations for them.

 

[bananabrain]

The "seraphim", literally "burners", were dragons representing the circumpolar stars (the North Pole was in Draco, not Ursa Minor, back then) which never rise or set.

although keruvim are also described elsewhere in terms of fire, as we see with the keruv with the sword that turns every way that guards the way to the tree of life in the garden of eden (see genesis 3:24).

Thus, the cherubim symbolize those aspects of creation which undergo periodic changes, while the seraphim symbolize what remains constant and unvarying. This is why the cherubim are marked with "wheels", which might better be translated "cycles" in this context.

excellent point. you will also note that the hayoth ("living creatures", actually another angelic aspect) also "ran and returned like a vision of lightning" (1:14) - this oscillation is also alluded to by the wheels. but in this case, it is also that the four different animals are four different faces (see 1:10) alluding to four different higher worlds.

It seems to me there is disagreement between most Jews and Jesus about the need for a personal guide. You have 'Rabbis', and you have spiritual 'Guides'. Christians were told not to call anyone master. This seems like a major departure between the two traditions.

i think that's quite an unusual viewpoint - certainly i have not noticed an absence of spiritual guides in a position of mastery in any christian denomination, whether it's a pastor or a pope. besides, "rabbi" means "teacher", not master (something some of our rabbis would do well to remember). another good point is about intermediaries - jews do not require intermediaries for confession or the atonement of sin; a rabbi has no part in this. this is a significant difference from the sacerdotal role of a priest. even our priests, in the Temple rituals, are but functionaries - they may do the priestly blessing, but they are nonetheless separate from temporal authority, whether secular or halakhic.

This is the practice of inventing "natural explanations" for the various fantastic events within the Bible. I think it's a load of hooey. If I'm going to believe, then I'm going to believe the miraculous events happened as miraculous events and not try to weasel-mind around the issues. It's far more honest and moral to simply conclude that the fantastic events in the Bible are either simply false or are true but beyond the scope of nature than to go through all kinds of convolutions to make up scenarios that give "natural" explanations for them.

hur hur hur. i'm with you on this, dude.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

The "cherubim", whose Aramaic form keruwviyn (Aramaic uses -iyn where Hebrew uses -iym for masculine plural) became Greek gruphon and Latin griffin, were not bare-butt baby boys as depicted by Renaissance artists, but rather beasts with the hind-parts of a bull (Taurus), fore-parts of a lion (Leo), wings of an eagle (Scorpio, perceived as a bird in the Near East), and face of a man (Aquarius) representing the Zodiacal signs which were the equinoxes and solstices in the period 4000-2000 BCE. The "seraphim", literally "burners", were dragons representing the circumpolar stars (the North Pole was in Draco, not Ursa Minor, back then) which never rise or set. Thus, the cherubim symbolize those aspects of creation which undergo periodic changes, while the seraphim symbolize what remains constant and unvarying. This is why the cherubim are marked with "wheels", which might better be translated "cycles" in this context. No no no, there is nothing about "spaceships" here.

Thank you.

 

[iBrian]

Interesting - I remember watching a Bollywood version of the Bhagavad Gita some years ago, and noting that each "lord" stood on a chariot circled by rings of soldiers (suggesting this would have been the normal ancient formation).

There's a common image depicting the rings in Ezekial as like wheels on a wagon - but as we're talking about ancient lit, I'd figured it was actually describing something visually more like soldiers set out in rings around the lord on his chariot.

I wonder how that would fit the picture of the angels as wheels, if at all?

 

[Dream]

i think that's quite an unusual viewpoint - certainly i have not noticed an absence of spiritual guides in a position of mastery in any christian denomination, whether it's a pastor or a pope. besides, "rabbi" means "teacher", not master (something some of our rabbis would do well to remember). another good point is about intermediaries - jews do not require intermediaries for confession or the atonement of sin; a rabbi has no part in this. this is a significant difference from the sacerdotal role of a priest. even our priests, in the Temple rituals, are but functionaries - they may do the priestly blessing, but they are nonetheless separate from temporal authority, whether secular or halakhic.

It is an unusual view. Most christian groups have pastors, etc. though there some groups that do not allow pastors at all but instead have the congregation share duties. These groups are few and far between, literally hundreds or thousands of kilometers between. They're nothing new, however.

Yes, I'd need a guide for reading Ezekiel, but you're not just talking about guidance. It sounds like a lot of dedication and practice.

It looks like my view of rabbis is incorrect for the second time. Since the above post I've started reading through The Mythmaker. It talks about pharisees, priests, etc.; so that should help some.