Did the Prophet s.a.w. forbid reading the Bible?

*CONTINUATION*

A critic may further ask, “What about the variants?”
The subject of variants is exactly islamoscope’s contention in his/her article mentioned earlier. As an opening to his article he says,
“I have found in my dialogue with Muslims is that they absolutely detest the idea of textual variants in Quranic manuscript.”
Talking to Muslims selling fish in the market does not count. That’s just a joke. Let us give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he has had the opportunity to converse with educated Muslims. I would like to know from him if he’s willing to share the names of the scholars he has spoken to or tried to speak to on this very subject(if there were any). In any case, this attitude or approach which is orientalistic in nature is not something new. Th critics or detractors of Islam have been at it since John of Damascus(750 CE). They have time and again tried to dismantle the Qur’an from various different angles and tactics. Early polemicists after John of Damascus (of whom you can read about here) included Abbot of Cluny, Peter the Venerable, Philip Melanchthon and even Martin Luther. The Qur’an early appearance in Europe by the hands of Andre du Ryer in his French translation L’Alcoran de Mohamet in 1647; Solomon Schweigger in German called Alcoranus Mahumeticus, das ist: der Turcken Alcoran, Religion und Aberglauben in 1616 just five years after the publication of the KJV; Alexander Ross in the first English translation called The Alcoran of Mahomet in 1648 just one year after du Ryer’s. The interest and sometimes even bordering on obsession of Orientalists on the Qur’an became quite evident with Theodor Noldeke’s Geschichte des Qoranus in 1860 which aimed at dating not just each chapter but also each verse of the Qur’an! Prior to that Gustav Flugel published the Qur’an with a new numbering system of his own called Corani texti Arabicus. Around 1937 to 1939 Richard Bell came to the fold and presumably basing his postulations on “scientific criteria” he published a rearranged version of the Qur’an in Edinburgh, Scotland. His work however did not gain much interest in the wider academic world. Enter Arthur Jeffrey and Otto Pretzl! These two and their cohorts tried to reassemble the Qur’an and come up with a new so called “critical text” of the Qur’an based on around 40 000 bits of Qur’anic fragments. Guess what happened to their courageous enterprise? It literally went up in flames! It was all destroyed during a bombing on Munich in World War 2. This mania if I may describe the phenomenon as such became even more fascinating and honestly downright silly with John Wansborough and his mates from the London School of Oriental and African Studies who produced the book Qur’anic Studies: Sources and Methods of Scriptural Interpretation which then brought forth others like Michael Cook and Patricia Crone into the picture who proposed the following,
1) The Qur’an did not exist in the 7th century and only came about at the end of it. That is to say the Qur’an did not exist in the Prophet Muhammad’s s.a.w. time.
2) Mecca was never the centre of the Islamic world
3) Arab imperialism and conquest started even before Islam
4) The hijrah did not exist
5) The early Muslims did not call themselves Muslims
These notions were reached by totally omitting all the Muslim sources for Muslim history. You know, that would be like writing Roman history without Roman sources. Can you imagnie that? Can you imagine writing Egyptian history without Egyptian sources? Thank God the sane world has not taken these scholars(if you can even call them that) seriously. They have all been laughed off the stage by academia especially Patricia Crone with her extreme thoughts on Islam. As a reaction to these pathological behaviour against the Qur’an by Orientalists Parvez Mansoor rightly remarks,
“Rarely, if ever, the sacred script of a world religion has been treated with so much “pathological anomosity”.”
However, it’s not all bleak and grim that we see in the world of Orientalism. Despite the seemingly prevalent anti-Islamic sentiments emitting from their ranks there are those that do try to actually understand the Qur’an instead of trying to dismember it. Among them include Neal Robinson in his Discovering Qur’an who actually embraced Islam during his research.
There are some truly dubious propaganda circulating around suggesting that the Catholic church instructed a band of people to create the Qur’an or that a group of heretical Christians came together and composed what we now know as the Qur’an. These are feeble attempts to undermine the credibility of the Qur’an that are in fact hot air. The Qur’an was not revealed mysteriously and in secret and that later a band of unknown people gathered together and assembled a copy and disseminated it around the world so that Muslims believe in a faked Qur’an or a Qur’an that is filled with problems like “variants”. Such conspiracy theories do not stand in light of history.
“The Qur’an is undenibly unique in this tradition, and indeed unique in the entire context of classical sacred tradition throughout the world, in having been revealed in the light of history, through the offices of a Prophet who was well known.” [5]
There are some who try to argue that the Qur’an was only collected and written down after the time of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and this affects the reliability of the text that have been passed down to us.
The scholar Syed Muzafaruddin Nadwi refutes this allegation,
“Some Orientalists, who have translated the Qur’an or written anything concerning it, have asserted that the verses and chapters of the Qur’an remained scattered and disjoinned during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, and that they were collected after his death on the authority of the vebal evidences of the Companions, and hence its genuineness is liable to question. This assertion only serves to betray the ignorance of those who make it. It is an untruth to say that the verses and chapters of the Qur’an were collected after the Prophet’s death, for there is strong historical evidence to prove that all verses of the Qur’an were collected and all the surahs(chapters) named by the direct instruction of he Prophet himself.” [6]

A Critic may further ask, “But what about people like Prof. James A. Bellamy who says,
“These variants, however – I have counted more than two-hundred that make a difference in the meaning - are important in that they tell us there was no solid oral tradition stemming directly from the prophet to prove which variant was correct”

That’s the source that islamoscope appeals to. What I would like to see are some supporting scholarship. Who else agrees with this? In fact, let us look at the words of Sir William Muir who was a Christin preacher from Oxford University who says,
“The recension of ‘Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, – we might almost say no variations at all, – amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of ‘Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but one Koran has always been current amongst them…. There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text.” [7]
Adrian Brockett says regarding the preservation of the Qur’an via both memorisation and writing,
“There can be no denying that some of the formal characteristics of the Qur’an point to the oral side and others to the written side, but neither was as a whole, primary. There is therefore no need to make different categories for vocal and graphic differences between transmissions. Muslims have not. The letter is not a dead skeleton to be refleshed, but is a manifestation of the spirit alive from beginning. The transmission of the Qur’an has always been oral, just as it has been written.” [8]
He also says,
“Thus, if the Qur’an had been transmitted only orally for the first century, sizeable variations between texts such as are seen in the hadith and pre-Islamic poetry would be found, and if it had been transmitted only in writing, sizeable variations such as in the different transmissions of the original document of the constitution of Medina would be found. But neither is the case with the Qur’an. There must have been a parallel written transmission limiting variation in the oral transmission to the graphic form, side by side with a parallel oral transmission preserving the written transmission from corruption.” [9] (emphasis added)
Consider the following also,
“The simple fact is that none of the differences, whether vocal or graphic, between the transmission of Hafs and the transmission of Warsh has any great effect on the meaning. Many are the differences which do not change the meaning at all, and the rest are differences with an effect on the meaning in the immediate context of the text itself, but without any significant wider influence on Muslim thought” [10]
Bernard Lewis who was a writer, critic, historian and Orientalist says about the Qur’an,
“From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. “Traditional science”, as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.” [11]
Is there any more doubt? Let us consider the words of my professor, Assoc. Prof. Dr. Israr Ahmad Khan from the Department of Qur’an and Sunnah, International Islamic University of Malaysia,
“But the Qur’an was neither lost and retrieved later, nor was it tampered with and manipulated. Almost fifteen centuries have elapsed since it was received by the Prophet to be delivered to mankin. Thi period is more than enough to cause a documet to be easily subjected to changes. History serves as a merciless agent of information, hiding nothing of what takes place in time and space. Had the Qur’an been altered or prepared in more than one version, it would have been on record. What is historically established is the availability of the Qur’an in one single version from the 7th century until today. The Qur’an has withstood the test of the time.
Munich University in Germany, at the turn of the current century, embarked on an extensive research project on the reliability of the Qur’an. A large team was involved in obtaining almost all the editions ever published anywhere in the world, including the oldest copy of the Qur’an said to have been used by the third Islamic leader ‘Uthman B. Affan, which was available in the Taskqand library in Uzbekistan. The researchers vetted and tallied the copies with each other and compared them with the oldest one. Their findings were remarkable. The conclusion reached was that no changes ever occured in the Qur’an and the presently available Qur’an is exactly the same as the oldest extant copy.[12] (emphasis added)
Finally, let us have a look at Bruce Lawrence’s words on this issue,
“Through complex process, the recitations that had been revealed in verses and chapters became over time a book. After the death of the Prophet Muhammad, ‘Ali, his close relative and supporter, worked with others to compile them into a written text. Then twenty years later, during the rule of ‘Uthman, the third Caliph or Successor to Muhammad (after Abu Bakr and ‘Umar but before ‘Ali), all extant versions were arranged into one ’standard’ version. This version persists substantially unchanged to the present day.” [13] (emphasis added)
In conclusion, the Qur’an has been thoroughly and completely preserved and remains to this day in its pristine purity. We repeat Allah’s saying,
It is We Who have sent down the Reminder (Qur’an) and We Who will preserve it. (al-Qur’an 15:9)

References:
[1] Prof. Dr. H. Mahmud Yunus. Tafsir Quran Karim(1957). p. 369
[2] Ibn al-Nadim. Al-Fihrist(1997). Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah. p. 61
[3] Ibn Hisham. Al-Sirat Al-Nabawiyyah. Beirut: Dar al-Ma’rifah. Vol. 1 and 2, p. 314-315. Muhammad bin Isma’il Bukhari. al-Jami’ al-Sahih. Vol. 3, Kitab al-Tafsir, hadith 4582. Ibid. Kitab Faza’il al-Qur’an, hadith 5004. Ibid. hadith 4999. Ibid. Kitab al-Maghazi, hadith 4088. Ibid. hadith 4078. Ibid. Kitab Faza’il al-Qur’an, hadith 4986. Manna al-Qu’attan. Mabahith fi ‘ulum al-Qur’an. Riyadh. p. 122
[4] Chris Horrie, Peter Chippindale. What is Islam?(1997). London, England: Virgin Publishing Ltd. p. 18
[5] Thomas Cleary. The Essential Koran. HarperOne. p. IX
[6] Syed Muzaffaruddin Nadwi. A Geographical History of the Qur’an(2009). Selangor, Malaysia: Islamic Book Trust. p. 16
[7] William Muir. The Life of Mohammad(1912). Edinburgh. p. xxii-xxiii
[8] Andrew Rippin. Approaches of the History of Interpretation of the Qur’an(1988). Oxford: Clarendon Press. p. 34
[9] Ibid. p. 44
[10] Ibid. p. 37
[11] Bernard Lewis. Islam in History(1993). Open Court Publishing. p. 104-105
[12] Israr Ahmad Khan. Qur’anic Studies An Introduction(2000). Kuala Lumpur: Zaman Islam Media. p. 14
[13] Bruce Lawrence. The Qur’an, A Biography(2006). Great Britain: Atlantis Books. p. 6
Other references:
Aijazul Qur’an by Dr. Rafiq Ahmad
Islam & The Qur’an an Introduction by Murad Hofmann
www.islamic-awareness.org

Recommended reading:
The Story of the Qur’an. It’s History and place in Muslim Life by Ingrid Mattson.
 
but wasn't this find in yemen precisely the sort of document we're talking about?

Err... no, actually.

It is already known that when Uthman (ra) formalized the Quran the ordered all the non-standard Quran's to be destroyed and the find in Yemen is one of those non-standardized Qurans.

The argument that a MASSIVE conspiracy would have been required for any deliberate effort to corrupt the transmission still stands, and this is next to impossible as no rumors circulated if there was any such action. Consider the fact that in Utman's (ra) time there was massive opposition to his rule. Any such rumors would have been flaunted by his opposition. As his enemies would have used any cause they could against him.


well, it took hundreds of years for biblical criticism to get from spinozan theological questioning to its current state of "aaargh, it's a bit complicated and there is no dominant view that isn't questioned by someone else"
How do you not sense the absurdity of this argument? If the Quran was vulnerable to the same textual criticism that the bible is, then it would have been critiqued on the same grounds. It is THAT simple.

It does NOT matter how old Judaism is. Skepticism is borderless! This is a globalized world in which one history scholar sitting in Luxenburg can easily gain access to texts in Arabia (and they have) and go there even to conduct his PhD thesis.

and i have read a fair bit of literature over the last twenty years on it. i've seen little to disturb me.
Well I have seen ZERO documentaries questioning the text of the Quran. (see my point?)

really? i thought *i* was responding to the assertion that "the Torah is corrupt". i wasn't aware i'd made such an implication.
Flip back to the pages and observe the fact that my first post was a response to Brian's post.

And should I remind you that this is the ISLAM board? If I was some proselytizing Quran thumper, then I would be posting these thoughts on the main board, or the Jewish board. But I am not. You are the one who is questioning the Quran, on the Islamic board.

no, you're getting me wrong. i don't have an opinion on the relationship of the Qur'an with the Divine, because i believe any position on this could only truly be experienced privately and therefore not conveyed to others,
I am glad you cleared this up. Thank you.


despite what the likes of abdullah and aidyl nurhadi might think and despite all the massive cut-and-paste jobs we get here about the Qur'an having science in it and so on from the harun yahya crowd. i'm only saying that there are other possibilities which, if you took a strictly atheistic academic standpoint, could account for the same set of circumstances, so therefore, it's not indisputable.
I agree completely. Rationalism and Religion are contradictory domains. Most Muslims do not understand this.


i don't agree - i know many who have not made the "leap of faith" and many who aren't even jewish who would consider the science (or art if you like) of jewish hermeneutics to be quite an impressive discipline indeed. i'm reminded somewhat of something i read this morning in the [non-religious academic expert professor] moshe idel book on kabbalah, "new perspectives", that he believes that academic study of religious texts fails to appreciate what anthropologists have long since understood, that sometimes religious scholarship may actually provide the best set of tools. i'm not saying that secularist tools don't have their uses, nor that they don't work, but that they're limited.
That is what they say about the "science of the hadith" as well... but I remain skeptical. At the end of the day, the hadith was compiled centuries after the death of the Prophet... It is impossible to consider it "error free"...

But then again the reason why I consider the Quran error free is due to a leap of faith. The rationalistic arguments in favor of it are just a bonus. But like you, I wouldnt actually care if tomorrow someone came along and started questioning its textual transmission. But till then :);)

really? these are an islamic sect and a post-islamic "daughter religion" that claim the Qur'an as sacred texts, but provide further sacred texts and revelations that "confirm and fulfil" the Qur'an - yet, strangely enough, mainstream muslims haven't found them "necessary" or compelling enough to make them become ahmadi or baha'i. if i am apparently obliged to consider the claims of christianity and islam to fulfilling and confirming my religion, as if i needed such a thing, then shouldn't you feel obliged to do the same with them?
I still don't think I follow... Ahmedies don't have any "sacred texts" that were revealed. They don't say they are "confirming" the Quran.

And the Bahai's... I have little interaction or background on them, honestly. I know the basics, but as far as I am concerned, they are not much different then the Sikhs who also say that the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was God sent, but they do not accept the finality of revelation, which is a fundamental part of being a Muslim.

The ahmedies, originally did not accept their "mehdi" to be a prophet, but now their followers do, as in a cult. But I think all sects are screwed up anyway, so I make no distinction between sects.

oh, come on, c0de, you can't possibly maintain that in the field of textual criticism there is anything but a plethora of methodologies and ideologies. are you saying that the likes of foucault and derrida (for example) are not "expert textual critics"? i'm not aware that they handle *anything* empirically. textual criticism is like the wild west, academically speaking.
Have you seen this?

YouTube - Who Wrote the Bible? - History Channel (Part 1 of 12)

no, it's not. it is the equivalent of someone who has done an undergrad biology degree telling someone who has done an undergrad chemistry degree that the methodologies of undergrad chemistry are not adequate to assess the effectiveness of a medical procedure. in other words, whilst i am not claiming to be a big expert, i do know enough about it to know that you're talking bollocks. you're welcome to carry on talking about it, but it is of limited use unless you're interested in actually looking at how this stuff works in practice.
That is exactly what the sunnis tell me about the hadith...

but that is my point - when the Torah doesn't tell you something explicitly (and our standard for "explicitly" is *extremely* stringent) it thereby intentionally creates an ambiguity, this ambiguity being designed to teach something. that is an axiom of jewish hermeneutics. it is the same when the Torah appears to contradict itself. the axiom there is that it is not contradictory, because the difference is designed to highlight a difference in *cases*, which must then be identified by carefully structured interpretative argument.
But the bible DOES tell you EXPLICITLY that whatever happened to pharoah, happened to his army !!!!! Dude !!! Why are you not getting this ???

My objection does NOT depend on WHAT happened to pharoah. It depends on him being an exception. Where does the OT allow the possibility that he was an exception?

.. that Qur'anic references can be traced to specific midrashic sources which must have been available to the jewish tribesmen at the time? well, i don't, i'm just hypothesising, following the train of thought, but if you have a particular midrashic interpretation of a biblical story that then pops up in the Qur'an, it is reasonable to hypothesise that that interpretation must have been available to whoever wrote the Qur'an and (if one discounts Divine Revelation as an axiom in this case) the most likely candidate would be midrashic texts available to local jews, wouldn't it? this is the sort of thing i would expect an academic to say if you asked them the same question. although i might find it of academic interest, it is not something i would expect to have inter-religious dialogue about, for the precise reason that you are getting all snarky with me now! you don't mind casting aspersions on the provenance of my scripture, but you're not all that keen when anyone returns the compliment. that is why i feel such discussions are ultimately fruitless, because i am not here to debunk your scriptures or your religion, but i will defend my own if they are unfairly maligned by the likes of abdullah.
Dude, I know your issues with Abdallah are pending... but realize that I did not come on the Jewish board and create any threads questioning the textual transmission of the Torah, did I?

I am here, on the ISLAM board, and I am defending the Quran. So obviously, I will say things like: your assertion that the Quran was sourced from the midrash is unfounded until you have any actual evidence to support the claim.

i am aware that muslims do seem to like to congratulate themselves on this, but having one midrashic interpretation confirmed by archaeology is hardly a great doctrinal victory, if such a thing is supposed to be important.
oh come on!!

give credit where credit's due man ;)
 
"despite what the likes of abdullah and aidyl nurhadi might think..."
What exactly might I think or rather have thought and shared here that I have not cited academic and scholarly material for as substantiation?
 
Aidyl Nurhadi said:
The word in question is venier(ונער) which means overthrew or tumble out as Strong's lexicon has it. I am not familiar with any Hebrew lexicon that defines the word as "smacking around" as you say.
is it my fault that the subtler connotations are lost on you? the point is that it doesn't explicitly imply "drowned" or otherwise killed. i'm not saying that pharaoh didn't get his feet wet - i'm saying it's not unequivocally clear that he died as a result. that is what i mean by it being not at all clear. am i not saying this right?

The Jewish Bible in English says, "But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea, for His mercy endureth for ever."
according to one translation - but "overthrew" doesn't mean "drowned" or "killed" either. i mean, saddam hussein was "overthrown", but he wasn't killed until much later.

as for the stability of the Qur'anic text, i am impressed with the case you make, for what it's worth, as with the objections to positions such as professor bellamy's - it would of course be lovely if we were able to rely upon such support as well, but our texts are considerably older and have been researched and attacked for several more centuries! however, it seems pretty clear that positions such as his do exist, whatever you may think of them, so it clearly isn't 100% unarguable. as i have also said, i'm not interested in debunking or attacking the Qur'an, but i would like to understand the state of the field at present so i can watch how it develops. it seems to me, however, that it would be premature of you to claim that no such systematic support for a redaction theory of the Qur'an could possibly occur. contrary to what you seem to think, i'm not just having a go here.

What exactly might I think or rather have thought and shared here that I have not cited academic and scholarly material for as substantiation?
that the Qur'an "fulfils", "clarifies" and "corrects" the Torah. it doesn't, any more than jesus does, as is claimed by many christians.

c0de said:
The argument that a MASSIVE conspiracy would have been required for any deliberate effort to corrupt the transmission still stands
but if you accept that in terms of the Qur'an, why would you have a problem accepting the same of the Torah? there's no "massive conspiracy" there either - in fact, as i've pointed out elsewhere, the Tanakh itself in jeremiah makes reference to falsification of the Law if not the text itself; you would think if there were such a conspiracy that it wouldn't have been beyond the wit of the conspirators to remove that particular bit!

How do you not sense the absurdity of this argument? If the Quran was vulnerable to the same textual criticism that the bible is, then it would have been critiqued on the same grounds. It is THAT simple.
how is it absurd? all that it would require would be the discovery of a Qur'anic equivalent of the dead sea scrolls, wouldn't it? the fact that such a thing hasn't yet been uncovered (as far as we know) doesn't preclude this being a possibility at some future date. that's what i mean. i sense a future dan brown novel in the offing - perhaps a race against time as robert langdon keeps one step ahead of the saudis and iranians on the trail of muhammad's original manuscript!

Skepticism is borderless! This is a globalized world in which one history scholar sitting in Luxenburg can easily gain access to texts in Arabia (and they have) and go there even to conduct his PhD thesis.
and, of course if such a text existed, i am sure the saudi authorities would be happy to have it examined, as opposed to hiding or destroying it. i mean, it's not like they've destroyed muhammad's house or anything... oh, hang on, wait a minute....

Well I have seen ZERO documentaries questioning the text of the Quran. (see my point?)
yes, but i still think it's a castle made of sand - can you imagine the power of such a meme if it were popularised? i don't think that's an impossible scenario.

At the end of the day, the hadith was compiled centuries after the death of the Prophet... It is impossible to consider it "error free"...
i don't consider the halakhic process "error free" either, unfortunately.

But then again the reason why I consider the Quran error free is due to a leap of faith. The rationalistic arguments in favor of it are just a bonus.
oh, i see, well, it's nice of you to say so. however, i hope you would understand that i consider rationalistic arguments (see, for example, the recent research that circumcision prevents STDs) to be a horribly, horribly double-edged sword which, it would appear, one can only pick up by the sharp and pointy end.

But the bible DOES tell you EXPLICITLY that whatever happened to pharoah, happened to his army !!!!! Dude !!! Why are you not getting this ???
no, i'm afraid it doesn't. if you are familiar with r. ishma'el's rules of interpretation (which you probably aren't) then you'll know that in a list (e.g. "pharaoh and his army") the list is made in order to distinguish between the cases of each element of the list. i'm not sure which rule is operating in this case, but it would have to actually say that pharaoh died, drowned or was killed for this to be the case.

My objection does NOT depend on WHAT happened to pharoah. It depends on him being an exception. Where does the OT allow the possibility that he was an exception?
in the fact that he is named separately in the list.

obviously, I will say things like: your assertion that the Quran was sourced from the midrash is unfounded until you have any actual evidence to support the claim.
i know it's unfounded and i'm not, in fact, claiming it. but if i had that kind of agenda, that would be my first line of attack and therefore where i would look for evidence. if you wanted to preclude such a line of attack, you would have to go and study the midrashic texts i suggest in order to ascertain whether they supported the hypothesis or not - i don't have an opinion because i haven't done this work - nor would i have time!

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
how is it absurd? all that it would require would be the discovery of a Qur'anic equivalent of the dead sea scrolls, wouldn't it? the fact that such a thing hasn't yet been uncovered (as far as we know) doesn't preclude this being a possibility at some future date. that's what i mean. i sense a future dan brown novel in the offing - perhaps a race against time as robert langdon keeps one step ahead of the saudis and iranians on the trail of muhammad's original manuscript!

Yes, but you can't base an argument on something that might be uncovered in the future (string theorists and multiverse enthusiasts, take note).

yes, but i still think it's a castle made of sand - can you imagine the power of such a meme if it were popularised? i don't think that's an impossible scenario.
See above.

oh, i see, well, it's nice of you to say so. however, i hope you would understand that i consider rationalistic arguments (see, for example, the recent research that circumcision prevents STDs) to be a horribly, horribly double-edged sword which, it would appear, one can only pick up by the sharp and pointy end.
A bonus is a bonus man. Criticism of the Quran is underway, and until they find anything, we have the liberty to tout the Quran's textual soundness even in rational terms.


but if you accept that in terms of the Qur'an, why would you have a problem accepting the same of the Torah?
I have already told you that If I believed there was some empirical proof to cement the reputation of the Quran over the Old Testament, I would be proselytizing in the Jewish forum. But that is not what I am doing, am I?

I only respond to those questions that get raised in this forum which question the Islamic paradigm. And the Islamic paradigm is that the Quran contradicts the Old Testament in numerous accounts, so I have no choice but to assume the Old Testament was the one that was corrupted.

Just as you take it on faith that you have no need for any other scripture, after the Torah.

and, of course if such a text existed, i am sure the saudi authorities would be happy to have it examined, as opposed to hiding or destroying it. i mean, it's not like they've destroyed muhammad's house or anything... oh, hang on, wait a minute....
That copy of the Quran in the Yemeni format was examined, was it not? Yemen isn't all that more liberal than Saudi Arabia.

no, i'm afraid it doesn't. if you are familiar with r. ishma'el's rules of interpretation (which you probably aren't) then you'll know that in a list (e.g. "pharaoh and his army") the list is made in order to distinguish between the cases of each element of the list. i'm not sure which rule is operating in this case, but it would have to actually say that pharaoh died, drowned or was killed for this to be the case.
Exactly. So the text itself does not actually say it, but your conclusion is born from an interpretation. This is what I was saying all along.

i know it's unfounded and i'm not, in fact, claiming it. but if i had that kind of agenda, that would be my first line of attack and therefore where i would look for evidence. if you wanted to preclude such a line of attack, you would have to go and study the midrashic texts i suggest in order to ascertain whether they supported the hypothesis or not - i don't have an opinion because i haven't done this work - nor would i have time!
No point in wasting energy trying to preclude anything. I will let you attack, and then mount a counteroffensive, because the best defense is a good offense. ;)
 
c0de said:
Yes, but you can't base an argument on something that might be uncovered in the future (string theorists and multiverse enthusiasts, take note).
i think you're mistaking the point i'm trying to make - i'm not saying that this argument would actually stand up at this point in time, i'm saying that you're nailing your trousers to the mast by placing reliance on the opinion of non-islamic academic scholarship, on the assumption that it will perpetually back you up. some of our lot and many christians did the same, with the result that they ended up out on a limb and forced to defend ludicrous positions like "dinosaurs died out in noah's flood". i think you're taking a big risk where i think you would be better to stick to a strictly faith-based position. that's just my opinion, of course, you are welcome to disregard it.

That copy of the Quran in the Yemeni format was examined, was it not? Yemen isn't all that more liberal than Saudi Arabia.
well, perhaps not, but it's probably less well organised, i'd have thought.

Exactly. So the text itself does not actually say it, but your conclusion is born from an interpretation. This is what I was saying all along.
er... hang on, i thought you were arguing that the Tanakh text did actually say it, based on the verse from psalms, whereas i was arguing that the Tanakh itself *doesn't* actually make it that clear, whereas the Qur'an does - but that doesn't therefore mean that the Qur'an is therefore necessarily the correct interpretation, although, naturally, you probably would. i can't see where you're finding me saying anything different.

No point in wasting energy trying to preclude anything. I will let you attack, and then mount a counteroffensive, because the best defense is a good offense.
ok, but my attack was a counteroffensive to the original attack made on the Tanakh at the beginning of the thread - i'm simply pointing out that i don't think it's nearly as conclusive as some appear to believe and, moreover, that the more that we are able to look at specifics, the less clear it is that islamic interpreters (as opposed to the Qur'an) understand jewish texts and their interpretation.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
i think you're mistaking the point i'm trying to make - i'm not saying that this argument would actually stand up at this point in time, i'm saying that you're nailing your trousers to the mast by placing reliance on the opinion of non-islamic academic scholarship, on the assumption that it will perpetually back you up.

I am not assuming that at all, why would I? Academics are not exactly Islam-friendly. But there is no point in abandoning a powerful position for hypothetical reasons. We do not know what might happen in the future. The "mobile defense" is more my style of warfare anyway.

some of our lot and many christians did the same, with the result that they ended up out on a limb and forced to defend ludicrous positions like "dinosaurs died out in noah's flood". i think you're taking a big risk where i think you would be better to stick to a strictly faith-based position. that's just my opinion, of course, you are welcome to disregard it.
The important thing is to make sure your faith itself is a "strictly faith based position". The real problem (as I am sure you agree) are religious people who mix their faith with rationality. Arguments are just temporary tools that can be replaced with others, as the time and necessity changes.

well, perhaps not, but it's probably less well organised, i'd have thought.
The Saudis probably wont know what they are looking at until they call foreign experts in to examine it.

(LoLz, j/k)

er... hang on, i thought you were arguing that the Tanakh text did actually say it, based on the verse from psalms, whereas i was arguing that the Tanakh itself *doesn't* actually make it that clear, whereas the Qur'an does - but that doesn't therefore mean that the Qur'an is therefore necessarily the correct interpretation, although, naturally, you probably would. i can't see where you're finding me saying anything different.
No dude, I was ASKING you whether or not it says it, but I was betting on the idea that it does NOT actually say it. My argument was that because it is not said specifically whether or not ramses was an exception, you have to employ interpretation, whereas the Quran makes it clear from the outset.


ok, but my attack was a counteroffensive to the original attack made on the Tanakh at the beginning of the thread
That was not an "attack". This is what I said. Read it again:

"The pagans, Jews and Christians used to say that the Prophet was taught the stories of the bible by someone else, and he just re-hashed the stories into the Quran. They knew that he was illiterate himself and could not have read the OT/NT.

This still does not explain why some historical details of biblical stories are different (and more accurate) in the Quran. For example in the story of Exodus the Bible states that Pharoah (who is traditionally accepted as Ramses II) is drowned with his perusing army. Yet in the Quran, he is saved."



This was a response to Brian's question whether or not the Prophet had access to Jewish texts.


- i'm simply pointing out that i don't think it's nearly as conclusive as some appear to believe and, moreover, that the more that we are able to look at specifics, the less clear it is that islamic interpreters (as opposed to the Qur'an) understand jewish texts and their interpretation.
Yes, actually it is pretty conclusive (academically speaking) as has been shown over the course of this thread. It is just not as conclusive as your side wants to accept, but that is fine. You are working from a faith based position. I understand this and I will not think less of you because of it.

But what you need to realize is that your faith-based defense does not work on the Islamic board or against my secular arguments. You have two factors working against you here. If you have fallen back into a "strictly faith based position", then you just have to sit there and take my artillery shells exploding over your head and forget about mounting "counteroffensives". ;)
 
c0de said:
I am not assuming that at all, why would I? Academics are not exactly Islam-friendly.
they're not exactly anything-friendly.

But there is no point in abandoning a powerful position for hypothetical reasons. We do not know what might happen in the future.
all i was saying is that you can see how that whole wissenschaft das judentums strategy has worked out for us, i don't see a reason why the same thing wouldn't end up happening to you guys.

The real problem (as I am sure you agree) are religious people who mix their faith with rationality. Arguments are just temporary tools that can be replaced with others, as the time and necessity changes.
well, yes, but only if you don't mind people calling your attention to an argument which could look a bit daft in hindsight, e.g. mediaeval "proof" arguments or sa'adia gaon's claim (C10th, baghdad) that "there's nothing in judaism which contradicts reason". oh deary me.

The Saudis probably wont know what they are looking at until they call foreign experts in to examine it.
hur hur hur.

No dude, I was ASKING you whether or not it says it, but I was betting on the idea that it does NOT actually say it. My argument was that because it is not said specifically whether or not ramses was an exception, you have to employ interpretation, whereas the Quran makes it clear from the outset.
in that case, we've been arguing at cross-purposes, because that's what i said from the outset, that it *wasn't* clear. i thought you were arguing that it was from the hebrew.

This still does not explain why some historical details of biblical stories are different (and more accurate) in the Quran. For example in the story of Exodus the Bible states that Pharoah (who is traditionally accepted as Ramses II) is drowned with his perusing army. Yet in the Quran, he is saved.
i understood this to mean that you were saying that the Qur'an is more accurate in that it says that pharaoh (i.e. rameses II) didn't drown and the Torah said he did - but i'm saying that it wasn't clear in the Torah, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is more accurate unless the Torah is definitely talking about rameses II, which i've already said isn't clear either, whether or not a scholar who is not a religious authority says otherwise.

Yes, actually it is pretty conclusive (academically speaking) as has been shown over the course of this thread. It is just not as conclusive as your side wants to accept, but that is fine.
i don't think the claim that the Torah is corrupted is pretty conclusive at all - of course it is possible to maintain it, but my most recent exposure to the state of critical thought (from a professor at oxford some months ago whose name escapes me at present) would indicate that significant voices in the debate are coming round to the idea that actually the traditional positions might have more to recommend them than was previously thought - of course, that's a long way from vindicating my position, but still worth mentioning.

But what you need to realize is that your faith-based defense does not work on the Islamic board or against my secular arguments.
well, perhaps not the secular ones, but the islamic ones are, essentially, "sez you" arguments from authority.

If you have fallen back into a "strictly faith based position", then you just have to sit there and take my artillery shells exploding over your head and forget about mounting "counteroffensives".
i haven't "fallen back" into it - it always was my position. the only point i was ever trying to make is that Qur'an-based arguments about the corruption of the Torah are arguments from authority, rather than based on actual insight into the Torah text itself. of course i understand your position, but i'm not sure you really understand what the difference between the islam board and the rest of the forum is - i mean, the christians aren't supposed to use the fact that the christianity board is the christianity board to discuss how we're all going to hell, nor am i sitting around on the judaism board finding rude things to say about the inferiority of non-jews, because it's the judaism board. i think you ought to read the code of conduct again - i think we might need to chat about this in the mods forum, in fact. a dialogue board is, after all, not supposed to have one room where you can talk about how superior you are, unless i'm misunderstanding something fundamental.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
well, yes, but only if you don't mind people calling your attention to an argument which could look a bit daft in hindsight,

All arguments look daft in hindsight man... If people like Augustine and Aristotle looked at their own arguments today they would be embarrassed. But the point is that if they were alive today they wouldn't be making the same arguments, because the terrain has changed. Arguments are tactical tools that should be deployed according to the terrain that you are on at the moment.

Always keep your strategy in liquid state, is all i'm sayin.

in that case, we've been arguing at cross-purposes,because that's what i said from the outset, that it *wasn't* clear. i thought you were arguing that it was from the hebrew.
Dude!! What the hell???

It is CLEAR! It is clear that Pharoah WAS NOT AN EXCEPTION according to the Torah. The only reason you are saying that is due to a specific methodology of interpretation. The Torah clearly mentions Pharoah as being WITH his army. And the rule that you came up with was purely interpretative. The words of the Torah are CLEAR.

i understood this to mean that you were saying that the Qur'an is more accurate in that it says that pharaoh (i.e. rameses II) didn't drown and the Torah said he did - but i'm saying that it wasn't clear in the Torah, but that doesn't mean that the Qur'an is more accurate unless the Torah is definitely talking about rameses II, which i've already said isn't clear either, whether or not a scholar who is not a religious authority says otherwise.


i don't think the claim that the Torah is corrupted is pretty conclusive at all - of course it is possible to maintain it, but my most recent exposure to the state of critical thought (from a professor at oxford some months ago whose name escapes me at present) would indicate that significant voices in the debate are coming round to the idea that actually the traditional positions might have more to recommend them than was previously thought - of course, that's a long way from vindicating my position, but still worth mentioning.


well, perhaps not the secular ones, but the islamic ones are, essentially, "sez you" arguments from authority.


i haven't "fallen back" into it - it always was my position. the only point i was ever trying to make is that Qur'an-based arguments about the corruption of the Torah are arguments from authority, rather than based on actual insight into the Torah text itself. of course i understand your position, but i'm not sure you really understand what the difference between the islam board and the rest of the forum is - i mean, the christians aren't supposed to use the fact that the christianity board is the christianity board to discuss how we're all going to hell, nor am i sitting around on the judaism board finding rude things to say about the inferiority of non-jews, because it's the judaism board. i think you ought to read the code of conduct again - i think we might need to chat about this in the mods forum, in fact. a dialogue board is, after all, not supposed to have one room where you can talk about how superior you are, unless i'm misunderstanding something fundamental.
When I provided academic proofs and academic reasoning to back up the identity of Ramses II as the pharoah mentioned in both our scriptures, your only reply was "our Jewish authorities do not agree" which makes your defense purely faith based. So like I said: you never had a means to mount a counteroffensive.

And once again, the idea that the Torah is corrupted is not just a Quran-based argument. Here you go: Higher criticism of the Old Testament

Let me know when these scholars find anything substantial to use against the Quran. Till then, I'll tip my hat and say good day 2 u sir.
 
c0de said:
All arguments look daft in hindsight man... If people like Augustine and Aristotle looked at their own arguments today they would be embarrassed.
i don't know if that proves that all arguments look daft, though.

But the point is that if they were alive today they wouldn't be making the same arguments, because the terrain has changed. Arguments are tactical tools that should be deployed according to the terrain that you are on at the moment. Always keep your strategy in liquid state, is all i'm sayin.
really? i would have thought, tactically speaking that you would be better advised to argue in such a way as not to have to retract your reasoning better on, that's all i'm suggesting.

It is CLEAR! It is clear that Pharoah WAS NOT AN EXCEPTION according to the Torah. The only reason you are saying that is due to a specific methodology of interpretation. The Torah clearly mentions Pharoah as being WITH his army. And the rule that you came up with was purely interpretative. The words of the Torah are CLEAR.
no, they're not. not according to our standards of clarity and precision, they're not and ours, when it comes to Torah, are what counts. you are arbitrarily deciding that because it's clear enough to you, that's therefore clear - i dispute this.

When I provided academic proofs and academic reasoning to back up the identity of Ramses II as the pharoah mentioned in both our scriptures, your only reply was "our Jewish authorities do not agree" which makes your defense purely faith based. So like I said: you never had a means to mount a counteroffensive.
i don't think a counteroffensive is necessary, because we cannot accept that academic proofs and reasoning be admissible as authoritative in this area, whether it supports our case or not. there is a principle at stake of competence of interpretation and i doubt we are happy to surrender it.

And once again, the idea that the Torah is corrupted is not just a Quran-based argument.
i know *that*, but i don't accept those arguments either, for all of the reasons i've said elsewhere.

Let me know when these scholars find anything substantial to use against the Quran. Till then, I'll tip my hat and say good day 2 u sir.
fair play to yis, then.

And this is exactly why most interfaith discussion is a waste of time.
er.... you did read the code of conduct, right?

I was responding to the historic argument that the Quran contains copyrighted material from the previous scriptures, with the response that there are details present in the Quran that are not contained in the OT.
which proves not that the Qur'an's interpretation is correct, but that the OT is not in fact as clear and precise as you appear to be arguing, which i am finding a bit confusing.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
really? i would have thought, tactically speaking that you would be better advised to argue in such a way as not to have to retract your reasoning better on, that's all i'm suggesting.

Maybe I wont have to retract it. Maybe, the academics will never come up with a solid enough criticism that I and other Muslims can not overturn.

no, they're not. not according to our standards of clarity and precision, they're not and ours, when it comes to Torah, are what counts. you are arbitrarily deciding that because it's clear enough to you, that's therefore clear - i dispute this.
Exactly: Jewish interpretative standards of "clarity and precision". Last time I checked, this is the ISLAMIC section of the forum. So I reserve the right to disregard the interpretation of your scholars, in favor of what is actually written in the Torah.

which proves not that the Qur'an's interpretation is correct, but that the OT is not in fact as clear and precise as you appear to be arguing, which i am finding a bit confusing.


What "interpretation"??? Muslims don't need to apply interpretation in whether Pharoah was the exception or not, because the Quran states it clearly that he was (unlike the Torah.)


i don't think a counteroffensive is necessary, because we cannot accept that academic proofs and reasoning be admissible as authoritative in this area, whether it supports our case or not. there is a principle at stake of competence of interpretation and i doubt we are happy to surrender it.
Then why are you continuing to press the same point?

er.... you did read the code of conduct, right?
What exactly violated the code of conduct? I stated that the paradigm of materialism vs "spiritualism" in most interfaith dialogue is a false dichotomy (since I reject both points of view) and therefore, I consider such discussions to be a waste of time. That is my personal opinion. How is stating that against any of the rules here?


 
Removed the troll and responses to...thread back on topic.
 
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