Hey how did you end up in heaven?
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citizenzen
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What? You don't know?
Your understanding of all knowing is apparent. Most would not have the wisdom to answer this way. However, what would you say to you? Do you know why or why not? Try not to be cynical or sarcastic, be instead honest. Is there a bar? Do you have it within yourself to be counted worthy?
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
My opinion: No. And worthiness doesn't matter.
My God(s) doesn't work this way. And I don't have to die to be in the kingdom of the Divine. It's all around me... I just have to open to it. It's not a matter of becoming worthy enough for a deity. It's a matter of awakening to my own worth and potential. It's not an issue of judgment, but rather consciousness. For me, the kingdom is something we awaken and bring to fruition. It is a deep-seated desire to which we dedicate ourselves. It is a purpose, not a place, and while the God(s) may assist if one's intention is sincere, no God(s) bar the gate.
citizenzen
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A sign that says you have to be this moral to ride this attraction? (Oops. Sorry... there's that sarcasm again.}
Here's a couple of semi-serious thoughts...
You only die once in a life. It is impossible for me to say what will transpire or what my response to it will be. It is one thing to be sure and glib in a forum, and entirely another to maintain one's composure as their life slips away.
That said, I have gone through the process of forgiving myself in this life. I am not perfect, but I value perfection. I am not always loving, but I value compassion. I am not always wise, but I value wisdom. All of these gifts I try to embrace and embody in my life despite the feeble and fragile tools that I possess.
And if in the end a bar is produced and evidence is presented to demonstrate that I could have attained "this" but I only attained "that" then I will deal with that judgement when it comes. I'm not going to pretend that I have the answers. I will only say that I will welcome the experience.
shawn
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This question begins its existence upon the supposition that there is a division between us and the divine.
This is an idea which organized religions have used and exploited for purposes of control for thousands of years, as it works.
For whatever reason people feel a distinct separation from the divine/spiritual and being busy with the daily grind of animal/natural concerns people do not really answer that or figure it out and so naturally, when confronted with questions of such a nature will feel unprepared and un-knowledgeable causing discomfort and embarrassment, even fear and so will tend to rely on things which allegedly dedicated experts will provide.
It is all highly exploitative.
Intentionally.
Consider the challenges one faces in just "waking up".
First, one must have a very strong desire to do so which is born only from a feeling of discontent with one's picture of "the way things are".
(and this eliminates the majority right from the start)
Then there are material concerns as sitting on the mountain is not being economically productive and one must remove one's self from the valley/marketplace periodically or for a lengthy time to gain new insight/revelations/epiphanies etc which are necessary for the paradigm change.
Distractions are many and are highlighted.
Chemical means are verboten, slandered maliciously and heavily penalized.
All this amounts to a serious challenge, therefore the road less traveled, the small gate which is hard to find, the narrow path which is difficult to walk.
So most opt for the broad road which leads to a figurative hell, as to not ever wake-up is a life not really lived, so basically wasted time.
Yet all about every one all the knowledge of everything is separated from them by the filmiest of veils.
This is an idea which organized religions have used and exploited for purposes of control for thousands of years, as it works.
For whatever reason people feel a distinct separation from the divine/spiritual and being busy with the daily grind of animal/natural concerns people do not really answer that or figure it out and so naturally, when confronted with questions of such a nature will feel unprepared and un-knowledgeable causing discomfort and embarrassment, even fear and so will tend to rely on things which allegedly dedicated experts will provide.
It is all highly exploitative.
Intentionally.
Consider the challenges one faces in just "waking up".
First, one must have a very strong desire to do so which is born only from a feeling of discontent with one's picture of "the way things are".
(and this eliminates the majority right from the start)
Then there are material concerns as sitting on the mountain is not being economically productive and one must remove one's self from the valley/marketplace periodically or for a lengthy time to gain new insight/revelations/epiphanies etc which are necessary for the paradigm change.
Distractions are many and are highlighted.
Chemical means are verboten, slandered maliciously and heavily penalized.
All this amounts to a serious challenge, therefore the road less traveled, the small gate which is hard to find, the narrow path which is difficult to walk.
So most opt for the broad road which leads to a figurative hell, as to not ever wake-up is a life not really lived, so basically wasted time.
Yet all about every one all the knowledge of everything is separated from them by the filmiest of veils.
c0de
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If I were you, I'd give the rhetoric a rest.
What about the ancient pagan "supposition" that there is
no division between the Divine and us? I could easily make
the case that it has been exactly this delusion of self-divinity
that has been the cause of all the evil in our history. In fact, I could
even argue that it is this delusion that seeps into religion and makes
it organized, and has been the cause of the crusades of the popes
and imams and the rabbis, not to mention the kings and caesars
who think they were functioning as the direct hand of God.
And it is no different today, just continues with a different face,
where man thinks God is dead and he himself is all that is left in His place.
shawn
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Well, personal experience for one.
I have to take such things as any scripture or doctrine or creed on faith, but I do believe the evidence of my own experience is a bit more profound.
It has made me a better person as a result, so if I am misinterpreting the experience due to my own programming and biases, well.....so what.
The proof is in the pudding they say and I would agree.
There is a big difference code, between delusions of self divinity and connection with the divine.
The former is ego run riot inflamed with grandiose illusions, the latter is ego death.
c0de
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Yea, you and the rest of the 6.2 billion on this planet today, and all throughout history.
It's not like you are treading any new paths here.
If you truly were a "better person" you wouldn't be posting high flown rhetorical prose like the following, knowing full well you have no means to actually back up what you say with anything other than "personal experience"
Originally Posted by shawn
This question begins its existence upon the supposition that there is a division between us and the divine.
This is an idea which organized religions have used and exploited for purposes of control for thousands of years, as it works.
shawn
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Never figured I was blazing new trails.
And what do you have besides your own personal experience?
What does anyone have besides that?
Here-say from questionable sources?
Wow...gee-whiz what an idea.....just base your life on what others tell you with no confirmation.
I am glad the science types tend to steer away from that kind of thinking.
citizenzen
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Just ignore him... he's been in a weird mood lately.
shawn
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Too much 9 inch nails will do that
c0de
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Did I ever say I had anything else?
This is why I wasn't the one who posted an unprovoked diatribe against other peoples beliefs, was I?
Now you're just contradicting yourself. This is what you said one sentence before this one:
Exactly, so what makes you think those who are blindly following others, are not doing it because it was their own personal experience led them to that blindness? So you are no different than them, you just think you are.
"personal confirmation" is just another marketing buzz word, so get over it.
Clearly, you learned nothing from the video of Feynman on your "why?" thread. You still have no idea what science actually is or what these "science types" are like.
shawn
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You are in a weird mood m8.
I still appreciate you.
I still appreciate you.
If I died and suddenly found myself on an escalator thru the clouds to the pearly gates and saw St. Michael their with a book and G!d on a throne and Jesus at his feet, I thnk I'd soil myself...do we have bowel movements in heaven? And where does the plumbng go?
No sarcasm there....all deadly (no pun) serious. I don't buy that any of that could possibly happen, I'm a betting man and if you had that in your hand and I had 7 high I'd go all in against ya.
But if it all happenned, if I'm all in and lost. I wouldn't worry a bit about Michael reviewing that book, my dues are paid, and I believe my brother and father would welcome the prodigal son home.
No sarcasm there....all deadly (no pun) serious. I don't buy that any of that could possibly happen, I'm a betting man and if you had that in your hand and I had 7 high I'd go all in against ya.
But if it all happenned, if I'm all in and lost. I wouldn't worry a bit about Michael reviewing that book, my dues are paid, and I believe my brother and father would welcome the prodigal son home.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
This post = awesome.
Pagans have varied beliefs about the Divine. Not all believe there is no division, and even for those that believe there is no division (like me) that does not mean that human beings are deities.
It means that human beings have an innate potential to connect to the Divine and live a life in this connection.
Just because Pagans worship different deities than you do does not mean they think God is dead. To the contrary, they tend to just think that there are more Gods that are alive.
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c0de
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Sounds like a fallacy to me.
Saying there is "no division" is the same
as stating that there is equivalence.
In that case, the rule becomes one of Syllogism:
if A=B and B=C then A=C
OR:
if God=diety, and man=God, then man=diety
You can't use semantics to get out of this.
That last sentence of mine that you quoted was referring to atheists. (nietzsche reference)
Secondly, I don't worship "dieties" I worship The Diety. Singular.
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I wouldn't ask that. I'd say that I'm not a monarchist, and could he kindly direct me to a nearby free republic.
eudaimonia,
Mark
citizenzen
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Perhaps an analogy is in order.
There is no division between a wave and the ocean.
But the wave is still just a wave.
It is not an entire ocean.