If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheists?

[_Z_]

If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheists?

I can see although not agree with the argument, that the gods are in some way false or that they don’t exist for abrahamics, but if they do, how do you correlate them into you understanding of things?

For example I can see that Anubis could be considered to be a false judge, if god is the great judge and holder of truth. Though I don’t know how gaia is a false mother goddess, this would get a bit awkward if you then said god was the true mother.

Anyways, how do you understand these things and or correlate them? No insults intended, I am genuinely interested in how you all see these things currently. It was probably a lot easier when you could just cast down other religions eh.


　

 

[Dogbrain]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

The "gods" don't exist. Problem solved.

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

The "gods" don't exist. Problem solved.

Haha, that’s the simple answer, but its without basis and is simply one opinion over another. Surely you would give reason to back your beliefs up?

Take it like this; some pagans like me believe that many gods were formerly people, so you get a person who dies, then learns stuff in the otherworld and comes back to teach us the wisdoms of that [in an intermediary sense].

Other gods represent powers or aspects of reality which they then distribute according to their wisdom. You may have a goddess of fertility and pregnancy for example, now how can your male deity represent that without being some kind of transsexual? ..or at least androgynous.

 

[Dogbrain]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

Haha, that’s the simple answer, but its without basis and is simply one opinion over another. Surely you would give reason to back your beliefs up?

Take it like this; some pagans like me believe that many gods were formerly people, so you get a person who dies, then learns stuff in the otherworld and comes back to teach us the wisdoms of that [in an intermediary sense].

Other gods represent powers or aspects of reality which they then distribute according to their wisdom. You may have a goddess of fertility and pregnancy for example, now how can your male deity represent that without being some kind of transsexual? ..or at least androgynous.

The question is irrelevant, since there is no need to do that. No such "gods" exist.

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

The question is irrelevant, since there is no need to do that. No such "gods" exist.

You have no reasoning to back that up! I can equally say [as a pagan] that god doesn’t exist, then we are simply left with a futile contrast of opinions. The only difference is that I can offer some reasoning behind my beliefs where so far you have not.

perhaps 'think' before posting inane answers?

 

[shawn]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

The god's do exist, but, they are not gods.
Superior in so many ways to us, their creations,.... so much longer lived, .....so much more perceptive, we are as aphids to them, yet we, their b@stard children, us half-breeds, hold a key.....a fact which intrigues them greatly and has divided them into factions for millenia.
One side wanting to keep us blind and deceived, slaves, bound by religions and ideas which bring us low while promising us with sweet deceptions, the other wanting to aid us in our process of anamnesis, our liberation.
Nothing is yet decided.
The play is far from over.
We may be the puppets of the gods, but we can learn to pull our own strings, and we are not without assistance.

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

Interesting ideas shawn, I wonder if gods [or god] are in any way effectual other than on the mental/spiritual realm, after all we can find no evidence of the powers in the material realm.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

after all we can find no evidence of the powers in the material realm.

By Gods here you are referring to demogogue(s).

It is enough to be a God (ala a demogogue) because many are beholding to those demogogues for their sustanance ---it is the Absolute need to temper one's lusts & appetites when one is awarded the post of official demogogue lest the demogogue be destined to be peon once again in the cycle of Karmic affairs.

A soul can rise through the ranks of High-Official to be a steward of the commoners.

Aside from that God the almighty is transcendent with his own personal pastimes far from the souls cycling in Time ---whereas this material world is relative and mostly composed of inanimate matter.

We place too much emphasis on our 15 minutes of Life long existence as the All-in-All of subjective experience ---On the Titanic Movie the Boy Says, "I'm the King of the world" ---whereas we are worker ants.

Above the stratum of Ants are higher realms of enjoying the Good life.

'Sacrifice accrues rewards that cannot be had otherwise' ---to pursue any other ethos is to run in the world like a hamster does in his exercise wheel.

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

By Gods here you are referring to demogogue(s).

I don’t think so no… [maybe some are like that]

demagogue
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/demagogue

Karma is a part of Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism etc [mostly panentheism], I don’t really see it like that, rather a continuum and we are not to blame for it. we as actors in this life shall simply carry on to another story or blend into ceugant [infinity].

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

You mean that you don't kiss the ring of anyone?

If you are to say "Absolutely Not!" ---Then I would reply you're delusional.

When a Boot Camp Instructor says, "Now you will follow my orders because your life depends on it, etc" that is the position of a demigod.

When you beg for your life from the armed robber ---that demogogue is your Lord & master ---and if you live to tell the story . . . you will thank the absolute God in Heaven for reducing your Karma at that incident.

If you don't survive . . . [unless you pre-prepared for just such incidents; you'll say contrition] most likely you will invoke your immediate future course of action by saying something like . . . "Oh Sh*t".

Godspeed Laddie,
bhaktajan

 

[shawn]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

Interesting ideas shawn, I wonder if gods [or god] are in any way effectual other than on the mental/spiritual realm, after all we can find no evidence of the powers in the material realm.

If you find no evidence then you need to look closer/better/harder/longer....crank up the magnification.
They, of course, do not wish for us to know many things, so, like mushrooms, we are kept in the dark and fed a lot of bullsh*t. Sad it is that many are ok with that and are not very curious about the anomalies which are everywhere to be found.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

POST #9: Karma is a part of Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism etc [mostly panentheism], I don’t really see it like that, rather a continuum and we are not to blame for it. we as actors in this life shall simply carry on to another story or blend into ceugant [infinity].

Karma is a part of Physics!
"Karma" means "Action".

Your assertion that Karma is simply a notion --and your statement would not be an acceptable argument to avoid the consequences of "your actions" in a court of Law where you were the defendant.

BTW, The be educated on a Topic [ie: Karma] one MUST quote the Authentic Mentor that represents the source of that knowledge.

Most Brain-Surgeons cannot fix the automobile's engine
and most Master Mechanics cannot do brain surgery.

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Either way they are repeating the lessons passed down.

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

Karma is a part of Physics!
"Karma" means "Action".

Causality infers no morality and our actions within it simply move to the next effect. The actions we make have no effect but of themselves, they don’t cling to us like glue or anything. Hence we don’t have or posses causality it is simply something that occurs within us and the universe. my point is that we are not what we do, causality is pre-existent to us.

I spoke of karma as a notion because it is not explained by causality, so I consider it to be a spiritual thing ~ if existent at all.

BTW, The be educated on a Topic [ie: Karma] one MUST quote the Authentic Mentor that represents the source of that knowledge.

Why cant I nor anyone else decide what karma is, someone had to devise the idea in its origins ~ necessarily without a mentor! Equally there are many different teachers.

If anyone wishes to quote from them they may well do so, then I will question its basis as I may do so.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

Why cant I nor anyone else decide what karma is

Because it is in the dictionary.
The job of defining it has been done and has waited silently on the page until the reader comes to accept what is the Industry Standard.

Karma is NOT a reference to pre-destined Destiny.

It simply means, 'work'.

The work you sow is the work you reap.

There are absolute truths ---and then there is everything else.

BTW, your cash reserves ARE MINE. PLEASE SEND THEM TO ME.

Oh, the tax man already got to you? . . . or are you gonna say, "Why cant I nor anyone else decide what Tax to pay"

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

It simply means, 'work'.

The work you sow is the work you reap.

Well yea or ‘action’ as we all know. But you said it was scientific, as being causality, yet causality doesn’t imply that what you reap you sew. In actual fact causality is what makes us do the things we do, it creates our thoughts - brains and environments, very little of it has anything to do with us the consciousness. Even what does come from that, simply goes out into the causal soup - so to say, nothing comes back except vague effects.

I see no possible way that causal influences can effect ones next life, esp with rebirth [rather than reincarnation ~ which would take what you are at death and transplant that into another body].

Oh, the tax man already got to you? . . . or are you gonna say, "Why cant I nor anyone else decide what Tax to pay"

I don’t get your meaning here.

 

[Thomas]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheists?

They can't for monotheists.

It's a matter of conceptual definitions.

For my own part, as a Christian monotheist, God is 'Absolute', 'Infinite', 'All-Perfect' ...

Now if there is another God, besides the Christian idea, then neither God is Absolute nor Infinite, as you cannot have two absolutes, two infinites, etc.

Conversely, if you have many gods, then those gods share certain properties in common, by which they are identified as gods, and as those properties are common to all, then one naturally looks to the source of their common properties, which must itself be higher, and one ...

Thomas

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

They can't for monotheists.
It's a matter of conceptual definitions.

For sure, yet beyond concepts there is no reason why not to presume there are not gods, there are people and that doesn’t stop gods absolutism [?!].

For my own part, as a Christian monotheist, God is 'Absolute', 'Infinite', 'All-Perfect' ...

Its an either/or for me, the absolute is an absolute limit; god is complete, self defined, whole, one.
Infinity is unlimited, incomparative, without definition, empty. Both are perfect.

As you have god as absolute and you also have us and the universe, then clearly god is not all there is, then as he is absolute then the universe must be absolute ~ not god. ...two absolutes.

If ‘god’ is truly infinite, then ‘he’ has no limits and all things have an infinite base, therefore gods can be divine!

 

[Thomas]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

For sure, yet beyond concepts there is no reason why not to presume there are not gods, there are people and that doesn’t stop gods absolutism [?!].

Exactly. It's a question of faith. Either you believe, or you don't. Human nature, in itself, lacks the necessary faculty to 'prove' the existence of an eternal deity. Faith then is not a concept, it's a reality which accepts its own limitations.

Its an either/or for me, the absolute is an absolute limit; god is complete, self defined, whole, one.

Yep.

Infinity is unlimited, incomparative, without definition, empty. Both are perfect.

No. Empty is not perfect if something exists. If something exists, the infinite cannot be empty, and still be infinite. Because one cannot determine nor define the 'nature' of the Deity, to assume there's nothing there is an assumption.

As you have god as absolute and you also have us and the universe, then clearly god is not all there is, then as he is absolute then the universe must be absolute ~ not god. ...two absolutes.

No, that's a false premise. Because God is absolute, that does not mean that everything else has to be absolute as well. The universe exists within time and space, which are finite conditions, even if of apparently infinite duration (apparently so only from the human perspective). The universe is subject to increase and decrease, growth and decay, etc., therefore the possibility of an 'empty' universe must be allowed, which renders it finite and relative. One must allow even for the fact that the universe can cease to exist.

If ‘god’ is truly infinite, then ‘he’ has no limits and all things have an infinite base, therefore gods can be divine!

Again I would say a false premise. You cannot have a God with an 'infinite base' because that introduces quantity and difference into the Deity, which again renders it relative ... so again you're not talking about the Christian God, but some relative and conditional mode of being. Polytheism renders the gods relative according to each other, so you cannot identify the absolute in a polytheist system.

Thomas

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

"the principles of conservation of energy and conservation of momentum"

I see no possible way that causal influences can effect ones next life, esp with rebirth [rather than reincarnation ~ which would take what you are at death and transplant that into another body].

I see no possible way that causal influences can effect ones next life, esp with rebirth [rather than reincarnation ~ which would take what you are at death and transplant that into another body].

I don’t get your meaning here.

"which would take what you are" ---yes this is fully delineated in "The Bhagavad-Gita" ("The Song of God") ---The soul is all there is that comprises a living-enitity's personhood.

The Soul takes afresh a new birth in a new model off the assembly line in one of Millions of available models (species) of Human, Para-Human, or any of the economy-size sub-human species to live out the birthright to preform actions.

Without the soul's presence (a persona, as God is the Supreme, First & Original reservoir of Persona) all interactions (activities) are simply sand in an ocean of marbles (molecules) without any other signficance.

But there is a soul ---yet the soul is bounced around in the dynamic machine known as the material physical world:

A Newton’s cradle

This is the material world's mechanics in microcosism.
The person viewing it is the soul's consciousness.
The banging of the molecules (ie: waveforms etc) will transpire and pass and cause [interact with] other such waves ---yet the soul is aloof . . . unless it wrongly identifies itself as equal to those marble-like-molecules of inanimate matter.

 

[_Z_]

Re: If the gods ‘exist’ then how can god do so? …or what does that mean for monotheis

Exactly. It's a question of faith. Either you believe, or you don't.

It is not. that’s not what I am saying, what I meant was that god is apparently absolute but there is the earth and people, then many pagan gods were people who became gods [even if delusional]. So in effect gods absolutism does not disallow for other beings than him!

No. Empty is not perfect if something exists. If something exists, the infinite cannot be empty, and still be infinite. Because one cannot determine nor define the 'nature' of the Deity, to assume there's nothing there is an assumption.

It’s a reality trick, infinity is incomparative so it remains itself regardless, besides we can make the same arguments for or against gods imperfection/perfection. …something else exists apart from god right!

Not that it matters to me, I quite like the idea that infinity is fluid between it and everything else.

No, that's a false premise. Because God is absolute, that does not mean that everything else has to be absolute as well. The universe exists within time and space, which are finite conditions, even if of apparently infinite duration (apparently so only from the human perspective). The universe is subject to increase and decrease, growth and decay, etc., therefore the possibility of an 'empty' universe must be allowed, which renders it finite and relative. One must allow even for the fact that the universe can cease to exist.

A word; ‘all-time’. irrespective of its inner transience, the whole of all the universe is a single entity. The universe cannot end [it may be cyclic] as that would mean history [gods creation] never happened which is an absurd paradox, weather one believes in god or not. As for absolutes; if god is a ‘bubble’ then everything else that is not it must also be a ‘bubble‘.

Again I would say a false premise. You cannot have a God with an 'infinite base' because that introduces quantity and difference into the Deity, which again renders it relative ... so again you're not talking about the Christian God, but some relative and conditional mode of being.

I said god would be the infinite base not have one. The christian [nor any other] god cannot be infinite, we have already separated the absolute and the infinite as two distinctly contrasting things. The same goes for anything omni, like omnipresence, these are universals and cannot by definition go with the absolute [where the absolute god is whole so it cannot be something aside from that.

Polytheism renders the gods relative according to each other, so you cannot identify the absolute in a polytheist system.

True! What you can have is both an infinite and universal basis to the pagan gods! Beyond the superficial we must note that gods can die and can be born or transformed etc, just as we are. This is the very basis of mysticism and the secret of reality Imho.

--------------------

The soul is all there is that comprises a living-enitity's personhood.

It is not there is the body too. again as above this is the problem with absolutes. It is factual that causality is mostly environmental, and both that and things in environments are interactive. Feel the flow man!

The Soul takes a fresh a new birth in a new model off the assembly line in one of Millions of available models (species) of Human, Para-Human, or any of the economy-size sub-human species to live out the birthright to preform actions.

.

Then karma does not pass from one body to the next so you are agreeing with me ~ as the new soul in a body is 'fresh'.

Without the soul's presence (a persona, as God is the Supreme, First & Original reservoir of Persona) all interactions (activities) are simply sand in an ocean of marbles (molecules) without any other signficance.

Here you describe also what I have said, I have been describing the primordial nature or more; the infinite and universal base, as a pool ['Original reservoir'] from which all things pervade and go within and without [come and go from in life and death].

I learned much of what I know from Hinduism my friend! There are just a few basic inconsistencies that need to be ironed out between our wisdoms ~ but we are meaning a very similar thing in the end i feel.