Tough Questions for the Bible

[ReligionAnalyst]

I have long been fasinated by problems that within the last 100-200 years we have found with the bible.

For example, there is the issue with Noah's Arc and a global flood. Do a Google Search (since I can't post the link yet -- this is my first post) for "Problems with Noah's Arc"

Another one is the issue of Santa Claus and the speed at which he would have to travel to make it to every house in approx. 30 hours. See, for example, do a Google Search for "Why Santa Claus can't exist"

We have pretty strong evidence that it wasn't Adam and Eve, but evolution. Another hole in the Bible.

Bill Mahar points out that the concept that Mary was a virgin was only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels. That is a pretty significant fact to leave out in the other two. Was that something that was added to the bible at a later date?

According to the Bible, three wise men visited when Jesus was born. But, is there any discussion of Jesus after that, until he was much older? If these three wise men knew he was God's son, wouldn't there have been something of significance say during his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th years of life? Anyone who has a child knows that during these years, a child can be quite a handful. It would seem to me that Jesus, like any child would still need his diaper changed, would still have temper tantrums, etc. All the things of growing up. Essentially, my question is -- what happened on day 2, and week 2 and month 2 with Jesus after these wise men left?

Am I the only one in this world that finds these questions troubling? I am sure that there are similar questions, issues and problems in Judism and the Muslim faiths as well.

Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe, but these things seem to be pretty big questions. Some say that Noah's Arc is an "alagory," meaning a myth. But, if that is true, then isn't it logical to ask what else in the Bible is also a myth?

 

[shawn]

It is good and healthy to question things which do not make logical sense. That is how we grow, intellectually and intuitively.
The questions lead to speculation which leads to research, which leads to more speculation (but now it is somewhat educated speculation) and so on and so on.
In the course of this one will find certain knowings begin to crop up and verifications confirm them.
But, since we are privy to such a small amount of knowledge and can be incredibly biased it is wise to keep an open mind as it is certain that you will be proved completely wrong on a great many things.
Despite what your ego tells you.
Happy searching.
Hope you like to share what you find.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi RA, and welcome to the Forum.

I grew up very much being a Christian (I even went to Catholic high school). But there were a lot of things in Christianity and the Bible that I didn't like (and I eventually ended up not being a Christian).

Are you prepared to follow your questions no matter where they lead you, even you end up somewhere now you cannot imagine yourself being?

 

[wil]

Namaste and Welcome ReligionAnalyst,

a few thoughts....

Tough Questions for the Bible...

Can you please tell me which version you are using? Mine does not contain the Book of Kris Kringle

Also if you would please site the scripture that says that three wise men visited the baby Jesus. (in your search you will find they came much later than the birth and no mention of three)

Noah, and Adam and Eve.... what are there problems? Do you have issues with Aesops Fables and other mythology, metaphor, allegory, mysticism, parables, and moral based stories?

Surely your aren't under the impression that what was written by man a few thousand years ago is somehow historically and sceintifically accurate?

Hell that ain't true of purported science and history books explaining what is and was just a century ago.

Of course the bible is full of allegory...why do you have an issue with that?

I look forward to continued discussion and analysis.

 

[bananabrain]

For example, there is the issue with Noah's Arc and a global flood. Do a Google Search (since I can't post the link yet -- this is my first post) for "Problems with Noah's Arc"

on the other hand, virtually every culture seems to have a similar myth to noah's ark - look up the sumerian ut-napishtim for a start. stuff at the beginning of genesis is notoriously recondite and should rarely be taken literally.

Another one is the issue of Santa Claus and the speed at which he would have to travel to make it to every house in approx. 30 hours.

amazingly enough, not something that worries most christians, let alone jews like myself, this not in fact being in anyone's bible. fyi: nor is the tooth fairy, nor does the easter bunny feature in the gospels.

We have pretty strong evidence that it wasn't Adam and Eve, but evolution. Another hole in the Bible.

not really. a sufficiently robust and sophisticated understanding of the texts in question need not concern those of us who are both religious (as long as we're not overly literal) and supporters of the theory of evolution.

Bill Mahar points out that the concept that Mary was a virgin was only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels. That is a pretty significant fact to leave out in the other two. Was that something that was added to the bible at a later date?

from our point of view, it is a mistranslation of the hebrew word 'alma in the book of isaiah to the greek word "parthenos", which implies literal virginity, whereas an "'alma" is merely a "maid" - a young woman, as it were. a literal virgin would be a betulah.

I am sure that there are similar questions, issues and problems in Judism and the Muslim faiths as well.

well, why don't you find some and then come and talk to us again? like shawn says, it's good and healthy to question things which do not make [logical] sense - our response would generally be "well, what's the text really trying to teach you?"

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

I have long been fasinated by problems that within the last 100-200 years we have found with the bible"

I personally Sir, am - fascinated - that within 100 - 200 years we haven't realised that isn't actually the bible....

Another one is the issue of Santa Claus and the speed at which he would have to travel to make it to every house in approx. 30 hours. See, for example, do a Google Search for "Why Santa Claus can't exist"

It is in fact a christmas book..... Whoops?

Strong evidence that it was evolution not Adam & Eve? No... You have a theory.... Is that the same thing? Really....?

And Noah's Arc was real! It was real damnit! It was real! They all went in..... two by two!

 

[wil]

And Noah's Arc was real! It was real damnit! It was real! They all went in..... two by two!

7 pairs of all the clean animals...two pairs of all the unclean...

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

oh well i might as well join in to.

there are no holes in the Bible, some misinformed individuals may perceive that there are holes, however in reality there are none

 

[17th Angel]

7 pairs of all the clean animals...two pairs of all the unclean...

Sorry I got the song stuck in my head.... Or perhaps I focus more on the unclean.... Yes Wil is 100% correct.

 

[wil]

Sorry I got the song stuck in my head.... Or perhaps I focus more on the unclean.... Yes Wil is 100% correct.

And they all left by threesie threesies,
Must have been those birds and beesies,
Children of the Lord...

 

[wil]

oh well i might as well join in to.

there are no holes in the Bible, some misinformed individuals may perceive that there are holes, however in reality there are none

Namaste NCOT,

Yes it is a matter of choice.

One can shoot holes in it.

One can revel in the truth.

One can attempt to justify.

One can put on the blinders.

Its all choice.

I prefer to open my eyes, explore the perceived holes, listen and learn from the justifications, expose and accept the issues and find the truth that sets me free and blissful that is contained within.

And not limit the above or differentiate from the above with books other than the bible.

 

[Quahom1]

I have long been fasinated by problems that within the last 100-200 years we have found with the bible.

Welcome to IO Analyst!

For example, there is the issue with Noah's Arc and a global flood. Do a Google Search (since I can't post the link yet -- this is my first post) for "Problems with Noah's Arc"

One of the interesting points about "Noah's Arc", is that it is not only in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic scriptures, but pretty much a story in just about every other societies' historical mythos/folklore/scriptures. Of course it isn't called Noah's Arc, but stories of an arc or big barge or boat that saved man and beast proliferate ancient texts and spoken folklore, usually as a message of salvation or second chances. In any event, the "Arc" could actually have been what is called a "Tardis". This is a structure that is larger on the inside than it appears to be on the outside. Since we now know that time and dimensions in space are relative, this theory would make sense.

Another one is the issue of Santa Claus and the speed at which he would have to travel to make it to every house in approx. 30 hours. See, for example, do a Google Search for "Why Santa Claus can't exist"

Santa would have no problem moving throughout the planet in 30 hours if he used physics to his advantage (e.g. moving from house to house at speeds approaching the velocity of light, stepping out of phase with the worlds linear time line, etc). This might also explain why we think of Santa/Father Christmas/Father Frost, as being centuries old, when in reality he might be quite young (from his perspective). However, Santa is not in the Bible...

We have pretty strong evidence that it wasn't Adam and Eve, but evolution. Another hole in the Bible.

Adam and Eve story is one of a personal relationship between God and a human couple. That the story contends that both man and woman were made from the stuff of the earth, and the fact that humans' bodies do indeed consist of elements of the earth, stars, etc., does not make the story invalid, nor does it interfer with the concept of evolution. But it is also more than a story of our beginnings. More important, Adam and Eve is a love story between man/woman/God, with heart breaking let downs, yet a message of hope and redemption/reconcilliation with the lover and the loved.

Bill Mahar points out that the concept that Mary was a virgin was only mentioned in 2 of the 4 gospels. That is a pretty significant fact to leave out in the other two. Was that something that was added to the bible at a later date?

The Bible contains individual books (66-68). The four Gospels were written at different times by different people, who had their priorities and issues of importance they wished to convey to the particular audienc each Gospel was written for. To some, the issue of virginity before marriage was paramount (death being the penalty for not being so), yet to others that did not matter. It would be far more suspect if each of the Gospels were identical to the other three. But all four Gospels conveyed the same message of hope and redemption, for everyone willing to believe and accept that message of hope and redemption.

According to the Bible, three wise men visited when Jesus was born. But, is there any discussion of Jesus after that, until he was much older? If these three wise men knew he was God's son, wouldn't there have been something of significance say during his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th years of life? Anyone who has a child knows that during these years, a child can be quite a handful. It would seem to me that Jesus, like any child would still need his diaper changed, would still have temper tantrums, etc. All the things of growing up. Essentially, my question is -- what happened on day 2, and week 2 and month 2 with Jesus after these wise men left?

The Mages (Magi), did not visit Jesus until almost two years after his birth. This is why King Herod ordered the destruction of all male children new born to 2 years of age. He took the news of the "child messiah" very seriously, and quite fearfully (fearful for his own kingship). After Herod died and things settled down, most likely Jesus did grow up as a child, who had to learn to obey and be polite and to consider others before himself.

Case in point is when Jesus was 12. While on a trip with his parents and extended family, Jesus slipped away to the Temple, where he astounded the priest with his wisdom and knowledge (for three days). When his parents realized he was not with any of the family, they searched until they found him in the Temple. When asked why he had done this his response was both incredulous and cryptic "Do you not know I am to be about my Father's business?"

Though it does not go into detail, the bible makes it clear that Jesus' parents and family made it quite clear to him that his duty was to honor and obey his mother and father until he was of the age of manhood (about 30 years old). And the story goes that Jesus did infact do as he was told and obeyed his parents, until the Cannan wedding (he was about 30). At this point, ironically it was his mother who cut the apron strings, while Jesus complained he wasn't ready yet...but again, he obeyed his mother, became a man and began his ministry...with the miracle of water changing into wine.

One of the problems modern day man has is the need to get into every minute detail of something, so much so that he fails to see the whole.

It is the proverbial "not seeing the forest for the trees).

The bible is not a library to be dissected and disciminated for cold hard facts, but a collective story of hope, faith and love, of pain, sadness and lonliness, joy, wonder, and vindication...and of the promise of redemption.

Where is the fault in that kind of message?

v/r

Q

 

[ReligionAnalyst]

The bible is not a library to be dissected and disciminated for cold hard facts, but a collective story of hope, faith and love, of pain, sadness and lonliness, joy, wonder, and vindication...and of the promise of redemption.

Where is the fault in that kind of message?

The problem is that, at least in the Catholic Church, they hold up the bible and say "The word of the Lord." If the items that I pointed out above are in fact a myth (untrue), then what else is not true? A you describe it, it is not bad. However, if we hold up the bible and then claim that these are "holy words" when in fact they are myths, that is pretty scary to me.

The other thing that bothers me, not so much with the Bible, but with the Quran, is that there are people out there (e.g., Osama Bin Laden and the Talban) that are reading these books and making warped interpretations of these books and then killing people (flying airplanes into buildings) because of what they are reading. And, they are expected, in another myth, to get 72 virgins when they get to heaven. Granted, that is a small minority. Another small minority are so wrapped up in the Bible that they are bombing abortion clinics. The best way to save the people there is to kill them, apparently.

As country singer Kenny Chesney says in one of his songs "Everybody Wants To Go To Heaven, But Nobody Wants To Go Right Now."

Again, those are only a small minority, but what is important is to flush out what is true and what is myth about the Bible. I was asked above if I have a problem with fables. No, no problem with those. The Boy Who Cried Wolf teaches us well not to Cry Wolf. However, in the case of Noah's Ark, the lesson seems to be "be good, or God will wipe out the entire planet, except for one selected family." And, if everybody died except Noah, his wife, his sons and his daughters, then doesn't that all make us desendents of incest? Kind of a problem there, don't you think?

The other problem with Noah's Ark is the lack of understanding of physics. You can't just have 30,000 feet times the surface of the earth of water magically "appear." We know now that rain comes from evaporated sea water, carried back over the land.

Noah's Ark story has a lot more problems than the Boy Who Cried Wolf.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"Noah's Ark story has a lot more problems..."

--> It is one thing to complain, it is another to do something about it. Are you ready to remove the story of Noah's Ark from your belief system?

 

[Quahom1]

Hi again Analyst!

The problem is that, at least in the Catholic Church, they hold up the bible and say "The word of the Lord." If the items that I pointed out above are in fact a myth (untrue), then what else is not true? A you describe it, it is not bad. However, if we hold up the bible and then claim that these are "holy words" when in fact they are myths, that is pretty scary to me.

Definition: "A myth, in its simplest definition, is a story with a meaning attached to it other than it seems to have at first; and the fact that it has such a meaning is generally marked by some of its circumstances being extraordinary, or, in the common use of the word, unnatural."
This definition was made by John Ruskin, in 1869, in The Queen of the Air.

This does not make a myth true or untrue. And as far as a church calling the Biblia (library of books making up the Bible), the "Word of the Lord"; the original authors of the individual books making up the Bible called their stories the Word of the Lord as they were dedicated to obeying and being inspired by the Lord to put the words down for the benefit of mankind. The church then took all these God inspired works, put them together and logically declared the whole of the Bible as being the "Word of the Lord".

The other thing that bothers me, not so much with the Bible, but with the Quran, is that there are people out there (e.g., Osama Bin Laden and the Talban) that are reading these books and making warped interpretations of these books and then killing people (flying airplanes into buildings) because of what they are reading. And, they are expected, in another myth, to get 72 virgins when they get to heaven. Granted, that is a small minority. Another small minority are so wrapped up in the Bible that they are bombing abortion clinics. The best way to save the people there is to kill them, apparently.

I can not answer for the Quran as I do not follow its precepts. However based on what is stated above I am inclined to believe the information you received is in fact bits and pieces taken out of the original context. This is also something some Christians do with the bible to get their particular point across. I submit one must read the entirety of a works in order to get the whole picture.

As country singer Kenny Chesney says in one of his songs "Everybody Wants To Go To Heaven, But Nobody Wants To Go Right Now."

The song was written tongue in cheek with a touch of seriousness. Meaning people want to go to heaven, but they want to live and grow and learn and laugh and all experience all that life has to offer, before leaving this world for another.

Again, those are only a small minority, but what is important is to flush out what is true and what is myth about the Bible. I was asked above if I have a problem with fables. No, no problem with those. The Boy Who Cried Wolf teaches us well not to Cry Wolf. However, in the case of Noah's Ark, the lesson seems to be "be good, or God will wipe out the entire planet, except for one selected family." And, if everybody died except Noah, his wife, his sons and his daughters, then doesn't that all make us desendents of incest? Kind of a problem there, don't you think?

Again, a myth is neither true nor untrue. However as far as Noah's Arc, the society on earth was already despot and destroying eachother, to the point that it grieved God's spirit to sickness. Yet he conceived of a way to save his creation and the innocence of the earth in Noah and his family (who were righteous in Gods sight, despite the corruption of the rest). It took over 600 years to build the arc (people lived allegedly upwards of 1000 years).

The other problem with Noah's Ark is the lack of understanding of physics. You can't just have 30,000 feet times the surface of the earth of water magically "appear." We know now that rain comes from evaporated sea water, carried back over the land.

National Geographics observed an experiment and study by scientists who deteremined (multiple times), that the earth itself may contain five to ten times the total water that is currently on the surface of the earth. If this is the case then if released to the surface, this water would cover the top of Mount Everest by one to two miles.

 

[ReligionAnalyst]

This does not make a myth true or untrue. And as far as a church calling the Biblia (library of books making up the Bible), the "Word of the Lord"; the original authors of the individual books making up the Bible called their stories the Word of the Lord as they were dedicated to obeying and being inspired by the Lord to put the words down for the benefit of mankind. The church then took all these God inspired works, put them together and logically declared the whole of the Bible as being the "Word of the Lord".

Hmmmm... I would have thought that the "Word of the Lord" would have actually been true. I guess that is why the Catholic Church failed so bad at calculating the age of the earth. Whereas they thought it was a few thousand years old, we have pretty good evidence that it is more than 4 billion years old.

Further, whereas the Catholic Church, for 500 years (1492 - 1992) refused to officially admit that the earth goes around the sun and not vice versa, the great astronomers knew it all along. Somehow, the church doesn't seem to have a good and clear connection to God. Perhaps they need to upgrade to Sprint Fiber Optics for improved call clarity? Either the Lord doesn't communicate well, or the church isn't actually getting it from the Lord, or they just don't listen very good.

I can not answer for the Quran as I do not follow its precepts. However based on what is stated above I am inclined to believe the information you received is in fact bits and pieces taken out of the original context. This is also something some Christians do with the bible to get their particular point across. I submit one must read the entirety of a works in order to get the whole picture.

Either the 9/11 hijackers get 72 virgins or they don't. If they don't then its either an error in the Quran or an error in the interpretation. Just my opinion here, but I don't think they get 72 virgins. This is what the hijackers were told and it seemed to be one of the reasons they were willing to die. However, there was also video of the hijackers at a Las Vegas strip club before 9/11. I guess they were just checking out what those sinful non-virgins were like before heading off to heaven?

Again, a myth is neither true nor untrue. However as far as Noah's Arc, the society on earth was already despot and destroying eachother, to the point that it grieved God's spirit to sickness. Yet he conceived of a way to save his creation and the innocence of the earth in Noah and his family (who were righteous in Gods sight, despite the corruption of the rest). It took over 600 years to build the arc (people lived allegedly upwards of 1000 years).

I guess I always think of myths as untrue. I would call a "true myth" a factual story. But, those are just my terms.

Pretty amazing that one and only one family was righteous and the rest were corrupt beyond repair.

While I would believe that it took 600 years to build the Ark (that might even given Noah enough time to sail around the world and pick up various species, such as the Koala bears, the polar bears and the penquins (to name a few), I'm having trouble with the idea that people lived up to 1000 years. Then, immediately after Noah, it dropped back to 30 or 40 years? I guess that is what all that in-breeding within a family will do to you.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it. I think we have good and solid proof here that the whole Ark thing never happened and the myths of the Bible are therefore false myths. Now we must ask, what else is in there that is false?

Where were all the rotting bodies 40 days after the flood? There should still be evidence of that even today. How did the fish survive the change in the salt content of the water?

National Geographics observed an experiment and study by scientists who deteremined (multiple times), that the earth itself may contain five to ten times the total water that is currently on the surface of the earth. If this is the case then if released to the surface, this water would cover the top of Mount Everest by one to two miles.

While certainly there is water underground in Aquafers, if all that water was released, wouldn't that cause a lot of cave ins? Look at places on the earth (Las Vegas is one of them) where too much water has been pumped out of the underground Aquafer. The land is sinking. Also, how was all this water pumped out? I know... God's magical powers.

--> It is one thing to complain, it is another to do something about it. Are you ready to remove the story of Noah's Ark from your belief system?

Yes, I think we have solid proof that it never happened. The earth is 4 billion years old, we evolved from primates and all of the people of the earth except for one family were never wiped out by a flood. Further, all of the animals of the earth were never all rounded up (either 7 pairs or 2 pairs depending on their clean/unclean status -- what does make one animal clean and another unclean anyway?), and put in a big ship -- one that could not have been created out of wood using the technology of the day.

The important question to me is: What else is there in the Bible that we can prove as untrue?

 

[Quahom1]

Hmmmm... I would have thought that the "Word of the Lord" would have actually been true. I guess that is why the Catholic Church failed so bad at calculating the age of the earth. Whereas they thought it was a few thousand years old, we have pretty good evidence that it is more than 4 billion years old.

I'm not going to try and dissuade you on your thoughts. But the "ignorance" came during the dark ages (526-992AD). Prior to that, before the "huns" and the Visigoths, there was technological, physiological, psychological, and spiritual advances that would stun today's world.

Keeping the "peasants" ignorant after the turn of the milleneum was a purely political issue (had nothing to do with God...hence the DARK AGES).

The truth was out there, but the cleric did not want it known. No excuse.

Further, whereas the Catholic Church, for 500 years (1492 - 1992) refused to officially admit that the earth goes around the sun and not vice versa, the great astronomers knew it all along. Somehow, the church doesn't seem to have a good and clear connection to God. Perhaps they need to upgrade to Sprint Fiber Optics for improved call clarity? Either the Lord doesn't communicate well, or the church isn't actually getting it from the Lord, or they just don't listen very good.

You are slapping at the church, and do not deserve an answer from me.

Either the 9/11 hijackers get 72 virgins or they don't. If they don't then its either an error in the Quran or an error in the interpretation. Just my opinion here, but I don't think they get 72 virgins. This is what the hijackers were told and it seemed to be one of the reasons they were willing to die. However, there was also video of the hijackers at a Las Vegas strip club before 9/11. I guess they were just checking out what those sinful non-virgins were like before heading off to heaven?

I don't have the answer to this series of issues, as I explained. I am not a Muslim. I may have lived among them, but I am not one. You have to ask the follower of Islam for their take on this set of issues.

I guess I always think of myths as untrue. I would call a "true myth" a factual story. But, those are just my terms.

Ok.

Pretty amazing that one and only one family was righteous and the rest were corrupt beyond repair.

Really? Care to look at the world around you? Isn't it closing in chaos and uncertainty? Things leaders do don't make sense? Things said by elders are confusing? Good is bad, bad is good, life is not important, people don't matter, what was black and white is now shades of gray?

While I would believe that it took 600 years to build the Ark (that might even given Noah enough time to sail around the world and pick up various species, such as the Koala bears, the polar bears and the penquins (to name a few), I'm having trouble with the idea that people lived up to 1000 years. Then, immediately after Noah, it dropped back to 30 or 40 years? I guess that is what all that in-breeding within a family will do to you.

Well, turtles live to be over 350 years. Ameoba have been revived after 5000 years. Certain birds live to be 200 years easy. The Coelecanth is considered very old, yet still lives. There is a Russian woman over 135 years old...and she still drinks a carraffe of vodka a day...

Under saturated oxygen conditions, life lives much longer than under current "normal" conditions...wonder what living under a greater atmospheric pressure might do?

Sorry, I'm just not buying it. I think we have good and solid proof here that the whole Ark thing never happened and the myths of the Bible are therefore false myths. Now we must ask, what else is in there that is false?

No, you don't have to buy anything. I'm not selling. And your "proof" conflicts with scientists' questions, not conclusions (what PROOF)

Where were all the rotting bodies 40 days after the flood? There should still be evidence of that even today. How did the fish survive the change in the salt content of the water?

It is called "edeposia". A water based body will discintegrate far faster in water, than on land.

While certainly there is water underground in Aquafers, if all that water was released, wouldn't that cause a lot of cave ins? Look at places on the earth (Las Vegas is one of them) where too much water has been pumped out of the underground Aquafer. The land is sinking. Also, how was all this water pumped out? I know... God's magical powers.

I said nothing of "Aquafers" my friend. I said the earth's "mantle" contains more water than what is on the surface.

Yes, I think we have solid proof that it never happened. The earth is 4 billion years old, we evolved from primates and all of the people of the earth except for one family were never wiped out by a flood. Further, all of the animals of the earth were never all rounded up (either 7 pairs or 2 pairs depending on their clean/unclean status -- what does make one animal clean and another unclean anyway?), and put in a big ship -- one that could not have been created out of wood using the technology of the day.

I do not doubt the earth is that old. The 613 Mizhfat tell us what is clean and not clean. From that set of rules come the 10 commandmants.

Again, we do not know what knowledge our forebears had, so all is speculation.

The important question to me is: What else is there in the Bible that we can prove as untrue?

What has been proven as being absolutely UNTRUE?

v/r

Q

 

[Dream]

[QUOTE="17th Angel]And Noah's Arc was real! It was real damnit! It was real! They all went in..... two by two![/QUOTE]lol. Are you sure you aren't American?

 

[wil]

The truth was out there, but the cleric did not want it known. No excuse.

As for the truth being out there...it is said early on the church knew the truth, but found out the masses did not want the truth. The truth contains a requirement of personal responsibility for your salvation, an understanding of as Paul said, put the mind of Christ in you.

We want someone else to do the work for us. Someone else to forgive us, someone else to walk the narrow road while we watch baseball(soccer, football, pick whatever god you want) and drink beer.

So the church created a system to satisfy the masses, very few pursued beyond it. It could be now that a larger percentage of the population wants, and is willing to seek out more than pomp and circumstance.

I don't have the answer to this series of issues, as I explained. I am not a Muslim. I may have lived among them, but I am not one. You have to ask the follower of Islam for their take on this set of issues.

The reality here is that again, it isn't Islam that is the problem but those that abuse the texts, warp the Koran to fit their needs. No different than the early US gov't and churches used the bible to support slavery and segregation and the anihilation of our native peoples.

If you have questions pose them in the Islam section, you'll get a wide array of answers, those that resonate with me most often come from MuslimWoman...

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"So the church created a system to satisfy the masses..."

--> I agree.

"...a larger percentage of the population wants, and is willing to seek out more than pomp and circumstance."

--> I agree with this too. There was a huge explosion of interest in real spirituality in the last century, and a lot of us are just not willing to put up with the line that the big churches have been trying to push off on us. And, I feel this trend will continue in the future, which I am grateful for.