Nicholas Weeks
Bodhicitta
They are quiet, as usual, but some Muslims are not in favor of the 911 Mosque:
American Islamic Forum for Democracy
American Islamic Forum for Democracy
Muslims Against NYC Mosque Location
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Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Is 3 threads about this enough now?
Nicholas Weeks
Bodhicitta
Three threads about Muslims opposing the 911 mosque? That is great!
Devout Muslim Dr Jasser on not building the 911 mosque:
http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=6131
Amica
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Peace/salaam--
Muslims are in a predicament regarding the mosque issue. But, before I say anything more about it: IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. It is a cultural center with a PRAYER ROOM inside. The center will have a pool, basketball court, a restaurant, etc. Hardly a mosque. A true mosque is not 13 story high, nor does it have any of those leisure things inside.
Having said that, the reason why many Muslims are quiet I believe is because they are not sure what to do. Since right wing activists are claiming that the center ("mosque") "represents terror," if they move the center that would mean that they agree with the right wingers, and essentially that they also are saying "all mosques represent terror." Also, although in smaller numbers, there were Muslims who were victims on 9/11 as well.
The right wing extremist views are calling Islam religion of "devil," a "cult", etc. They don't want to see anything of Islam anywhere in the country. Hence, you have attacks on mosques around the nation (i.e. Texas, Florida, etc).
Muslims are in a predicament regarding the mosque issue. But, before I say anything more about it: IT IS NOT A MOSQUE. It is a cultural center with a PRAYER ROOM inside. The center will have a pool, basketball court, a restaurant, etc. Hardly a mosque. A true mosque is not 13 story high, nor does it have any of those leisure things inside.
Having said that, the reason why many Muslims are quiet I believe is because they are not sure what to do. Since right wing activists are claiming that the center ("mosque") "represents terror," if they move the center that would mean that they agree with the right wingers, and essentially that they also are saying "all mosques represent terror." Also, although in smaller numbers, there were Muslims who were victims on 9/11 as well.
The right wing extremist views are calling Islam religion of "devil," a "cult", etc. They don't want to see anything of Islam anywhere in the country. Hence, you have attacks on mosques around the nation (i.e. Texas, Florida, etc).
Amica
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One more comment. But, first, I want to say that I do not believe two evils make things right. The Noble Qur'an states:
41:34 "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with that which is good: Then even your enemy will become your friend."
One might say: "oh, it's the Arabs. It's them that are evil Muslims," etc. No. Before 9/11 EVER happened, there was the first Gulf War, the Desert Storm. Hundreds of thousands Muslims were slaughtered for oil and a lie. Iraqi Muslims (Arabs) have been slaughtered again after 9/11, again for oil and a lie. And you will all remember not one of the hijackers of 9/11 came from Iraq.
That is why I say that Arabs were attacked by the West first. But of course, the winners will write the history. The winners, it seems, will be those who are armed to their teeth with nuclear weapons (not Muslims!) and therefore the attrocity of 9/11 will go in history as: "the day when the West and its freedoms were attacked by Muslim terrorists." It won't be the day when Iraq was attacked in 1990s. No. That was just a "just excursion, to free Muslims of a dictator we installed and financially supported for years before."
Be just we all must. And honor innocent people on all sides.
I understand Arab Muslims. And I know that they do not support evil.
41:34 "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with that which is good: Then even your enemy will become your friend."
One might say: "oh, it's the Arabs. It's them that are evil Muslims," etc. No. Before 9/11 EVER happened, there was the first Gulf War, the Desert Storm. Hundreds of thousands Muslims were slaughtered for oil and a lie. Iraqi Muslims (Arabs) have been slaughtered again after 9/11, again for oil and a lie. And you will all remember not one of the hijackers of 9/11 came from Iraq.
That is why I say that Arabs were attacked by the West first. But of course, the winners will write the history. The winners, it seems, will be those who are armed to their teeth with nuclear weapons (not Muslims!) and therefore the attrocity of 9/11 will go in history as: "the day when the West and its freedoms were attacked by Muslim terrorists." It won't be the day when Iraq was attacked in 1990s. No. That was just a "just excursion, to free Muslims of a dictator we installed and financially supported for years before."
Be just we all must. And honor innocent people on all sides.
I understand Arab Muslims. And I know that they do not support evil.
Bhaktajan II
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Forget the deaths & heart-ache!!!
REMEMBER THE TONS & TONS & TONS OF "Destruction" and the gargantuan & Epic "Dessolution" that occurred. People die everyday . . . and the insurance actuaries have it down to a binary science. What must never be forgotten is the actual resultant voracious events of trained secret agents.
Forget the deaths & heart-ache!!! REMEMBER THE unprecidented "HORROR" ---that has inspired the hale & hearty to re-act with vigor to "fighting opportunites that come un-sought".
Peace/salaam,
"I do not believe two evils make things right."
"To free Muslims of a dictator"
"I understand Arab Muslims."
"And honor innocent people on all sides."
**Never Again**
"this enough now?"
REMEMBER THE TONS & TONS & TONS OF "Destruction" and the gargantuan & Epic "Dessolution" that occurred. People die everyday . . . and the insurance actuaries have it down to a binary science. What must never be forgotten is the actual resultant voracious events of trained secret agents.
Forget the deaths & heart-ache!!! REMEMBER THE unprecidented "HORROR" ---that has inspired the hale & hearty to re-act with vigor to "fighting opportunites that come un-sought".
Peace/salaam,
"I do not believe two evils make things right."
"To free Muslims of a dictator"
"I understand Arab Muslims."
"And honor innocent people on all sides."
**Never Again**
"this enough now?"
Actually in 1099, Fatimid Caliphate expelled all Christians and Jews from Jerusalem, which started the Crusades.
Prior to that in 638 under Arab Rule, Jews were allowed back into the city. The Rashidun caliph Umar ibn al-Khattab treatiesed with Bishop Sophronius, assuring him that Jerusalem's Christian holy places and population would be protected under Muslim rule.
So the reality is The middle-east (Muslims) attacked the west Judeo/Christians, a long time ago, and hasn't stopped trying, according to historical records.
The Roman Governor of Southern Arabia tried to demolish Kaaba. And Islam did not exist at that time. So is it against Islam, or against Arabs that this fight is all about?
Can't be against Arabs if, Afghanistan and Iran are targets (since neither people are Arabic), and can't be against Muslims, if Islam didn't exist back then...so it must be against extremists who want what they want, and will use any means to get it.
I won't deny you that probability, however I think there is much more under the surface, that is ages old, and even more insidious.
Amica
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Salaam--
So, Quahom, how much Muslim blood is enough for the past 1000 something years to avenge the evils of the Fatimid caliphate?
The caliph ruler in question was very hostile to Sunni Muslims too. In 1005, al-Ḥākim ordered a public posting of curses against the first three Caliphs (Abū Bakr, ‘Umār and ‘Uthmān ibn ‘Affān) and against ‘Ā'isha (wife of Muhammad) all for opposing the claim of Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law ‘Alī, who had demanded the position of Caliph for himself and his descendants. The founder of the Umayyad caliphate, Mu‘awiyah I, and others among the Ṣaḥābah of Muhammad were also cursed. After only two years of posting the curses, al-Ḥākim ended the practice.[7] During this era, al-Ḥākim ordered that the inclusion of the phrase as-salāh khayr min an-nawm "prayer is preferable to sleep", which followed the morning prayer be stopped – he saw it as a Sunni addition. In its place he ordered that ḥayyi ‘alā khayr al-‘amal "come to the best of deeds" should be said after the summons was made. He further forbade the use of two prayers – Salāt at-Tarāwih and Salāt ad-Duha as they were believed to have been formulated by Sunni sages.[7]
Al-Hakim disliked the influence of the Christian Church in Jerusalem. He ordered random arrests, executions, and the destruction of churches as early as 1001. His attitude towards Christians grew hostile by 1003 when he ordered a recently built church destroyed and replaced by a mosque and went on to turn two other churches into mosques. In 1004 he decreed that the Christians could no longer celebrate Epiphany or Easter.[8] He also outlawed the use of wine (nabidh) and even other intoxicating drinks not made from grapes (fuqa) to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.[7] This produced a hardship for both Christians (who used wine in their religious rites) and Jews (who used it in their religious festivals).
In 1005, al-Ḥākim ordered that Jews and Christians follow ghiyār "the law of differentiation" – in this case, the mintaq or zunnar "belt" (Greek ζοναριον) and ‘imāmah "turban", both in black. In addition, Jews must wear a wooden calf necklace and Christians an iron cross. In the public baths, Jews must replace the calf with a bell. In addition, women of the Ahl al-Kitab had to wear two different coloured shoes, one red and one black. These remained in place until 1014.[9]
Al-Ḥākim engaged in other erratic behaviour in 1005: he ordered the killing of all the dogs in Egypt and had them discarded in the desert. He also forced the inhabitants of Cairo to work at night and go to bed in the mornings and severely punished anyone caught violating his orders.
Following contemporary Shiite thinking, during this period al-Ḥākim also issued many other rigid restrictive ordinances (sijillat). These sijill included outlawing entrance to a public bath with uncovered loins, forbidding women from appearing in public with their faces uncovered, and closing many clubs and places of entertainment.[7]
From 1007 to 1012 "there was a notably tolerant attitude toward the Sunnis and less zeal for Shiite Islam, while the attitude with regard to the 'People of the Book' was hostile." [7] On 18 October 1009, al- Hakim ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre and its associated buildings, apparently outraged by what he regarded as the fraud practiced by the monks in the "miraculous" Descent of the Holy Fire, celebrated annually at the church during the Easter Vigil. The chronicler Yahia noted that "only those things that were too difficult to demolish were spared." Processions were prohibited, and a few years later all of the convents and churches in Palestine were said to have been destroyed or confiscated.[8] It was only in 1042 that the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX undertook to reconstruct the Holy Sepulchre with the permission of Al-Hakim's successor.
This caliph, al-Hakim, according to some sources declared himself 'divine' and demanded worship from his people.
Not exactly a true Muslim ruler is he?
So, Quahom, how much Muslim blood is enough for the past 1000 something years to avenge the evils of the Fatimid caliphate?
The caliph ruler in question was very hostile to Sunni Muslims too. In 1005, al-Ḥākim ordered a public posting of curses against the first three Caliphs (Abū Bakr, ‘Umār and ‘Uthmān ibn ‘Affān) and against ‘Ā'isha (wife of Muhammad) all for opposing the claim of Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law ‘Alī, who had demanded the position of Caliph for himself and his descendants. The founder of the Umayyad caliphate, Mu‘awiyah I, and others among the Ṣaḥābah of Muhammad were also cursed. After only two years of posting the curses, al-Ḥākim ended the practice.[7] During this era, al-Ḥākim ordered that the inclusion of the phrase as-salāh khayr min an-nawm "prayer is preferable to sleep", which followed the morning prayer be stopped – he saw it as a Sunni addition. In its place he ordered that ḥayyi ‘alā khayr al-‘amal "come to the best of deeds" should be said after the summons was made. He further forbade the use of two prayers – Salāt at-Tarāwih and Salāt ad-Duha as they were believed to have been formulated by Sunni sages.[7]
Al-Hakim disliked the influence of the Christian Church in Jerusalem. He ordered random arrests, executions, and the destruction of churches as early as 1001. His attitude towards Christians grew hostile by 1003 when he ordered a recently built church destroyed and replaced by a mosque and went on to turn two other churches into mosques. In 1004 he decreed that the Christians could no longer celebrate Epiphany or Easter.[8] He also outlawed the use of wine (nabidh) and even other intoxicating drinks not made from grapes (fuqa) to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.[7] This produced a hardship for both Christians (who used wine in their religious rites) and Jews (who used it in their religious festivals).
In 1005, al-Ḥākim ordered that Jews and Christians follow ghiyār "the law of differentiation" – in this case, the mintaq or zunnar "belt" (Greek ζοναριον) and ‘imāmah "turban", both in black. In addition, Jews must wear a wooden calf necklace and Christians an iron cross. In the public baths, Jews must replace the calf with a bell. In addition, women of the Ahl al-Kitab had to wear two different coloured shoes, one red and one black. These remained in place until 1014.[9]
Al-Ḥākim engaged in other erratic behaviour in 1005: he ordered the killing of all the dogs in Egypt and had them discarded in the desert. He also forced the inhabitants of Cairo to work at night and go to bed in the mornings and severely punished anyone caught violating his orders.
Following contemporary Shiite thinking, during this period al-Ḥākim also issued many other rigid restrictive ordinances (sijillat). These sijill included outlawing entrance to a public bath with uncovered loins, forbidding women from appearing in public with their faces uncovered, and closing many clubs and places of entertainment.[7]
From 1007 to 1012 "there was a notably tolerant attitude toward the Sunnis and less zeal for Shiite Islam, while the attitude with regard to the 'People of the Book' was hostile." [7] On 18 October 1009, al- Hakim ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre and its associated buildings, apparently outraged by what he regarded as the fraud practiced by the monks in the "miraculous" Descent of the Holy Fire, celebrated annually at the church during the Easter Vigil. The chronicler Yahia noted that "only those things that were too difficult to demolish were spared." Processions were prohibited, and a few years later all of the convents and churches in Palestine were said to have been destroyed or confiscated.[8] It was only in 1042 that the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX undertook to reconstruct the Holy Sepulchre with the permission of Al-Hakim's successor.
This caliph, al-Hakim, according to some sources declared himself 'divine' and demanded worship from his people.
Not exactly a true Muslim ruler is he?
17th Angel
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The ones on the planes? Or ones that didn't get the memo?
*chuckles*
It is besides the point anyway.. That doesn't justify you putting a mosque there... It is SO freaking distasteful you understand? Yes?
Amica
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If you will note in 'his' name, the caliph had the name 'Al-Hakim.' In Islam, Al-Hakim means:
The Perfectly Wise, He who has wisdom in all order and actions. This is considered one of the Holy Attributes of Allah SWT ONLY. A human claiming this Holy Name as his title is a blasphemer!
This blasphemer and a tyrant is worshiped in Druze religion. the Druze have worshipped al-Hakim as visible God. Al-Hakim’s vizier, Hamza bin ‘Ali ibn Ahmad, a Persian mystic, helped ensure the al-Hakim was worshipped as the ultimate One who created the first cosmic principle. In Druze thought Hamza is the first of the creatures of God. The Druze calendar begins 1016/1017 A.D. (A.H.408), when Hamza publicly declared that al-Hakim was visible God at the mosque in Cairo.
The Perfectly Wise, He who has wisdom in all order and actions. This is considered one of the Holy Attributes of Allah SWT ONLY. A human claiming this Holy Name as his title is a blasphemer!
This blasphemer and a tyrant is worshiped in Druze religion. the Druze have worshipped al-Hakim as visible God. Al-Hakim’s vizier, Hamza bin ‘Ali ibn Ahmad, a Persian mystic, helped ensure the al-Hakim was worshipped as the ultimate One who created the first cosmic principle. In Druze thought Hamza is the first of the creatures of God. The Druze calendar begins 1016/1017 A.D. (A.H.408), when Hamza publicly declared that al-Hakim was visible God at the mosque in Cairo.
Amica
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17thAngel--
You know well that I meant the people killed in the WTC, not hijackers.
I would disagree with the mosque to be there if it was not for the right-wing claims that it is 'monument to terrorists.' Like I said earlier, not building the mosque there now is agreeing to that evil claim.
You know well that I meant the people killed in the WTC, not hijackers.
I would disagree with the mosque to be there if it was not for the right-wing claims that it is 'monument to terrorists.' Like I said earlier, not building the mosque there now is agreeing to that evil claim.
Amica
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On the other note, I can see how a religious symbol can be viewed as provocation to people.
In Bosnia, we have an elderly woman (Muslim), Fata Orlovic. During the war, her husband was killed on the house doorstep and the whole family was driven away. The Christian Orthodox build a church right in the front yard. The woman has been trying to have the church removed for the past 15 years, but with no success.
She's been physically and verbally attacked by the church's priests and even taken to court. The court made a decision in her favor last year, but the church still stands in her front yard.
The church is true provocation considering that the fact is that the church HAS NO Christian Orthodox people coming to pray there, except the priests.
So, I can see the sensitivities of the people who are against the mosque built near ground zero. And I am against it built there, but always want to clarify: I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOSQUE (ANY MOSQUE) IS MONUMENT TO EVIL, NOR WILL IT EVER BE.
I hope they make an interfaith praying center rather than a mosque only, or that they come up with a better solution.
In Bosnia, we have an elderly woman (Muslim), Fata Orlovic. During the war, her husband was killed on the house doorstep and the whole family was driven away. The Christian Orthodox build a church right in the front yard. The woman has been trying to have the church removed for the past 15 years, but with no success.
She's been physically and verbally attacked by the church's priests and even taken to court. The court made a decision in her favor last year, but the church still stands in her front yard.
The church is true provocation considering that the fact is that the church HAS NO Christian Orthodox people coming to pray there, except the priests.
So, I can see the sensitivities of the people who are against the mosque built near ground zero. And I am against it built there, but always want to clarify: I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOSQUE (ANY MOSQUE) IS MONUMENT TO EVIL, NOR WILL IT EVER BE.
I hope they make an interfaith praying center rather than a mosque only, or that they come up with a better solution.
17th Angel
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Fine see it not as evil, but still can you not understand and see how it is insensitive to do this?
Amica
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I already stated in my last post: "...I can see the sensitivities of the people who are against the mosque built near ground zero. And I am against it built there, but always want to clarify: I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOSQUE (ANY MOSQUE) IS MONUMENT TO EVIL, NOR WILL IT EVER BE."
Got to read all that I wrote, 17thA. You can't just read a sentence out of it...
Got to read all that I wrote, 17thA. You can't just read a sentence out of it...
Jayhawker Soule
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Being sensitive to others is valuable unless and until it entails validating a fundamentally bigoted attitude. As far as I can tell, the subtext of all opposition to Park51 is that anything associated with Islam is inherently a desecration and, in my opinion, such an attitude deserves to be exposed and repudiated, not condoned.