The Trinity according to the Bab

Ahanu

Ahanu

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This is a continuation of a previous thread; it can be found here:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jesus-and-the-bahai-faith-8317-3.html

My purpose is not to debate with Christians, but to better elucidate my understanding of the Trinity according to the Bab and Baha'is everywhere.

As Arthra said, this is the Baha'i forum where

Baha'i views are supposed to be...
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. . . so if you want to debate, you'll have to take it elsewhere.

Now . . .

Can we continue our discussion of the Trinity according to the Baha'i Faith?

I've been reading Nader Saiedi's book Gate of the Heart: Understanding the Writings of the Bab, which speaks about His theology. It has me revising alot of my religious views, like this subject of the Trinity.

In order to discuss the Trinity, I need an illustration in my mind to help me understand this doctrine. I need to understand how to pull it off of the paper, making it practical and understandable in real life. I've discovered a number of ways to picture it through the writings of the Bab. Below I included quotes from the Bab to go along with the first three illustrations.

Here are a few:

(1) as Adam, Eve, and their union together (or as a father, mother, and their union),

"Verily, His Will is the father of the universe, while His Determination, the mother of the children of Adam. Destiny is indeed the station of the scheme of things as ordained by God, the Fashioner of heaven, while Decree is His conclusive and mighty command."
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(2) as matter, form, and their combination,

"For, verily, a thing hath specific aspects: the aspect of matter, the aspect of form, and the aspect of combination. When these three aspects descend, they become seven . . . Verily, the Merciful hat alluded to these seven aspects as Seven Seas, and they are the words of God. Nothing can come into being in the heaven of receiving matter and the earth of received form save through these stages."
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(3) as verb, noun, and preposition,

"Verily, the noun is the attribute of the thing as it is in its own station . . . But the verb referreth to the movement of that thing, and is the source of both noun and preposition. The verb, in truth, is a motionless Creation that is not defined by stillness . . . and a moving Creation that is not defined by motion . . . As to the preposition, it is that meaning which testifieth unto naught but the link."
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(4) as the shape of the cross, (5) and as the letters that compose the name of the "Bab".

All five illustrations represent Will, Determination, and Destiny as Existence, Essence, and the Link. Together they are what Baha'is call the Trinity or the Manifestation of God.

In example one, you notice the Bab talks about "Decree." Stay with me. I will come back to this.

In example two, you notice the Bab says, "when these three aspects descend [Will, Determination, Destiny], they become seven." Decree is one of these "seven." The "Seven Seas" is another word for "divine Action." Somewhere on this forum I remember briefly discussing His doctrine of divine Action, but I was confused about this concept. I better understand it now. For example, Saiedi says that one can look at the Will as the heart of the Manifestation of God. Decree "corresponds to his body. The abrogation of the former religion is possible as long as the new Manifestation is alive." Therefore, changes in the religion of God can happen only at the appearance of the next Manifestation.

Divine Action includes the following: (1) Will, (2) Determination, (3) Destiny, (4) Decree, (5) Permission, (6) Term, and (7) Book. The first three can also be illustrated as a triangle, whereas the last four can be illustrated as a square. By the way, that's yet another way to look at the Trinity (as a triangle). Moreover, the triangle represents divinity and the square represents prophethood. Hence the Bab's name Ali-Muhammad. He is the link between the two.

The Bab writes about this in the Kitabu'l-Asama':

Verily, the Essence of the letters of the triangle preceding the square is the Manifestation of His Self in the kingdoms of heaven and earth, and whatever lieth between them.
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In an earlier work the Bab writes about this same subject in the Qayyumu'l-Asma:

"O Qurratu'l-'Ayn! Soon the people of the Supreme Cloud of Subtlety shall utter: 'Thou assuredly art the Joseph of Divine Unity. Say! Yea, by My Lord! I, in the shape of a square, am the Joseph of the Supreme Origin, and here is My Brother in the shape of a triangle, the form of the Seal. Verily, God hath favoured Me with the Twin Mysteries within the Twin Sinais, and the Twin Names in the Twin Luminaries."
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Note to self: "Sometimes the triangle is used to refer to the first three, sometimes to the last three; while the square may refer to the first four or the last four stages," says Saiedi.

There's alot more to say about this subject.

After all of this, I'm still struggling to understand these complex concepts. From my reading, Will and Determination create duality, but Destiny brings them together into one of Abdul-Baha's favorite words: unity! I look at Jesus as describing himself from the perspective of the divinity (the Will), and so he says, "I am divine." I look at Muhammad as describing himself from the perspective of prophethood (Determination), and so he says, "I am not divine; I'm a servant." I look at the Bab as taking it a step further from the perspective as a link between the two (Destiny), saying, "I'm all the prophets, from beginning to end." He's saying humankind has progressed into the revelation of the sanctuary of the heart; it's time for people to understand.

Any other Baha'is who reads this see it this way?

I'm still trying to define precisely what the seven stages of divine Action are. I mean, it seems kind of vague above. It's seems you can apply the concepts (just like tools) to subjects like freewill. Do we have freewill or not? The Bab says one must look at this from the perspective of unity or of the heart. It seems to be describing some fundamental way reality works. For example, duality and the need for unity through a need for a higher spiritual capacity to receive this truth.

Interesting.

Thoughts?
 
I look at Jesus as describing himself from the perspective of the divinity (the Will), and so he says, "I am divine." I look at Muhammad as describing himself from the perspective of prophethood (Determination), and so he says, "I am not divine; I'm a servant." I look at the Bab as taking it a step further from the perspective as a link between the two (Destiny), saying, "I'm all the prophets, from beginning to end."
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Whoops. My mind must of wandered. I meant to say Jesus as the triangle and Muhammad as the square (though both can be looked at in either way, for they are in reality both). I think what people say is true: the Baha'i Faith goes into symbolism overload sometimes. :cool:

Sigh. I'll take some time to write more on paper. Then, I'll come back with stuff more clearly thought out for more discussion.
 
BruceDLimber said:
If you want to discuss the concept of the trinity in the BAHA'I Faith--as contrasted with the Babi Faith--, you might do well to refer to 'Abdu'l-Baha's chapter on this in "Some Answered Questions" rather than the Babi scriptures.
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I thought the three major figures of the Baha'i Faith had the same understanding of the Trinity.

After all, to paraphrase Baha'u'llah from memory, He says "He does whatsoever He pleases." "Doing" is the Will and "Pleases" is Determination. Both Bah'u'llah and the Bab use these words with the same meaning. It seems both would understand they are two aspects of the Trinity. That's why I'm having a hard time reading the Baha'i scriptures lately. It includes these phrases of metaphysical language, and, when I don't understand them, I figure I must go to the source, the Bab.

By the way, I've read the majority of Abdul-Baha's writings and speeches. Do I understand them all? No.

I'll write more later.
 
Thanks. I'll definitely check it out and share my findings. I invited our friend Sen to comment on this. Hopefully, he will find the time to do so. I know he's reading this book too, and he has a better understanding of these complex ideas.
 
Lord no, I have concentrated on the social teachings/ political theology, not on theology in the narrow sense. What I can say is that in theology and metaphysics, the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha are on one line. I do admire "Gate of the Heart" very much: it makes some things in Baha'u'llah's writings clearer as well
 
Sen McGlinn said:
Lord no, I have concentrated on the social teachings/ political theology, not on theology in the narrow sense. What I can say is that in theology and metaphysics, the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha are on one line. I do admire "Gate of the Heart" very much: it makes some things in Baha'u'llah's writings clearer as well
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AH! LOL!

This is so scary. I'm left alone with these bewildering complex sayings? Yeah, I'll definitely be visiting the Baha'i apologetics forum.
 
the Primal Will

If you've already read much of 'Abdu'l-Baha's Writings, as you say, then you presumably know that Some Answered Questions is in modern English and therefore comparatively easy reading.

Peace,

Bruce
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Are you implying that, since Abdul-Baha has explained the Trinity in his writings, there is no need for me to also read the writings of the Bab on the Trinity because I don't fully understand His writings at the moment?

Okay. From your understanding of what Abdul-Baha said on the Trinity in SAQ (Some Answered Questions), tell me how we can apply this doctrine to our lives.

I'm going to continue researching the Bab's writings. I suppose I should focus on the first divine Action of God: Will. It's referred to as the Primal Will, the Point, the Tree of the Will, the Mystery, the Word, and the Rememberance, writes Saiedi.

Saiedi goes on to say the following:

"Recognizing the limitations of all language in attempting to describe the Divinity, we can approach an understanding of the dual station of the Primal Will and its relationship to God using the philosophical concepts of subject and object. God, as the unkowable Essence, transcends the realm of both subject and object.
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Also, he writes:

"The station of the Primal Will can be described as the unity of subject and object."

The Primal Will has two stations:

(1) divinity
(2) servitude

Like everything else, there's multiple names for the same thing. The Bab calls the station of divinity the "Sea of Names" or the "Sea of the One True God." Also, these two stations can be thought of as directions, such as higher (divinity) and lower (servitude). Think of divinity as the subject.

"The Will as object, however, represents something that is created," writes the author, "and there is now mention of the Will itself as that created reality." The station of servitude is also called the "Sea of Creation" and the "Sea of the First Creation." The writer describes the Primal Will as created by God, yet it's still outside of time itself.

We have observed that we can see the Will in two ways. Abdul-Baha says the same thing in discussion of the Trinity:

"The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, 'The Father is in the Son,' meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror."

Notice Abdul-baha says we can choose to look at the Mirror (Christ's station of servitude) or the reflection of the Sun of Reality in the Mirror (Christ's station as divinity). The Bab illustrates the same point, says Saiedi. "One can focus either on what is reflected in the mirror or in the mirror itself." From our view this unites the conflicts between the view of Jesus as God or as prophet.

I included this last quote from Abdul-Baha just for Bruce. It shows that the Bab's writings do shed some light on his explanation of the Trinity.

2nd note to self: disregard some of the words I said above. They are provided below.

I look at Jesus as describing himself from the perspective of the divinity (the Will), and so he says, "I am divine." I look at Muhammad as describing himself from the perspective of prophethood (Determination), and so he says, "I am not divine; I'm a servant." I look at the Bab as taking it a step further from the perspective as a link between the two (Destiny), saying, "I'm all the prophets, from beginning to end." Whoops. My mind must of wandered. I meant to say Jesus as the triangle and Muhammad as the square (though both can be looked at in either way, for they are in reality both). I think what people say is true: the Baha'i Faith goes into symbolism overload sometimes. :cool:

Sigh. I'll take some time to write more on paper. Then, I'll come back with stuff more clearly thought out for more discussion.
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What is included in post #10 is DEFINITELY correct, and so are the illustrations in post #1.

To be continued . . .
 
No, my point is that you said you wanted to discuss the understanding of the trinity from the viewpoint of the BAHA'I Faith; the Babi Faith is a different religion with plenty of differences from the Baha'i Faith, and concentrating instead on only the Bab's Writings may therefore get us side-tracked.

Nor do I presume to feed you my interpretation of what the Bab or 'Abdu'l-Baha said: that's not my role here.

Peace,

Bruce
 
I said "My purpose is not to debate with Christians, but to better elucidate my understanding of the Trinity according to the Bab and Baha'is everywhere."

See, I made a distinction between the Bab and Baha'is.

Sen said: "What I can say is that in theology and metaphysics, the Bab, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha are on one line. I do admire 'Gate of the Heart' very much: it makes some things in Baha'u'llah's writings clearer as well." That means this includes the Trinity.

Nor do I presume to feed you my interpretation of what the Bab or 'Abdu'l-Baha said: that's not my role here.
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How will I ever be corrected if I make a mistake if everybody here thinks like this? I operate by the principle "you don't know what you really think 'til you write it down." That's just the way I am. I have notebooks filled with notes on religion, for example. Writing online, I have this same principle in mind. I want to be corrected if I make a mistake, and the fact you wont share your interpretation makes me sad. You said "feed" as if I'm not willing to revise my understanding of the Trinity according to the Bab and Baha'is. I'm just looking for a little conflict. A little conflict changes opinions.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you; I'm trying to better understand. I hope this feeling has been clearly expressed.
 
the Primal Will pt. 2

As we have noted, God has created everything by the Will. It has a dual nature. This fact is stated multiple times.

The Bab further expresses the dual nature of the Primal Will in the following words:

"Thou must bear witness that the Will is in one sense all things and, in another, devoid of them all; in one respect It is before all things and, in another, devoid of them all; in one gaze It is above all things and, in another, beneath them all. For, verily, all those different directions have been created by the Will and generated through the modes of Its revelation. Therefore, It is more manifest to things than even their own reality, inasmuch as the first is a creature, created by It, and the last is a creature created by It, the seen is a creature fashioned by It, and the hidden is a creature fashioned by It."
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It both transcends all things and is all things.

Now I'm going to share my personal thoughts. The Primal Will is in the "noumenal word" and reflected (or manifested) in the "phenomenal world," to use Kantian's theory. In my notes I have written that the phenomenal world is where knowledge is possible, but the noumenal world is where there is no access to knowledge. Perhaps one can call this phenomenal world a shadow of reality. So, to bring this home, the noumenal world is reality, the realm of divine Action, and, from our limited perspective in the the phenomenal world, we are veiled from ultimate reality as created by the Will, for it transcends time, while, at the same time, manifests Itself in time!

The Bab continues:

"The Primal Will, once it is manifested in this world at the behest of God, speaketh of all things, and by virtue of its speaking thereof, all things are brought into existence."
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So that which is in the noumenal world becomes manifested in the phenomenal world through Revelation. Varying interpretations of the scriptures are due to the varying "reflections of the divine creative Word" in our hearts. For example, I'm using the point of view of Jesus called "God" and Jesus called "prophet."

Brilliant Saiedi clarifies an important point that this should not be mistaken as a "form of relativism . . . although it has some similarities to perspectivism, which holds truth to be related to the perspective or standpoint of the subject. Here, the constitution of the subject's standpoint is not due to some arbitrary material or social factor that is accidental to the noumenal reality. Instead, the perspective is constituted by a specific aspect of the self-disclosing act of the same noumenal reality."

To be continued . . .
 
The full meaning of the Trinity according to the Bab

Wish me luck! I'm attempting to fully explain the meaning of the Trinity in this post!

I'll need to start with this fundamental quote that I missed on my first read:
"In the history of Western philosophy it was Kant who made this insight the core of his philosophical outlook. According to Kant, the empiricist theory of knowledge, which treats the human mind as a blank slate that reflects objective reality passively through sense perception, is the mind as an active mental structure that imparts form to the chaotic manifold matter of perception, is inadequate. Kantian theory replaced that model with a conception of the mind as an active mental struction that imparts form to the chaotic manifold matter of perception, creating a particular perception and conception of the world. These mental structures, which create our understanding of reality, are the a priori forms that constitute the conditions of the possibility of experience and the objectivity. The forms of intuition (space and time), as well as the categories of understanding, are the basic mechanisms of such a construction."
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We can describe this mental structure in our head as the phenomenal world (or the reality we can conceive). However, this is just a shadow of the noumenal world, the reality of things as they really are. We can view Revelation as an enlarging of our phenomenal world, so that we have a capacity to reflect that which has come from the noumenal world. Therefore, it's stoopid to say, "Revelation has ended." This makes perfect sense now.
For anything to exist, it must have an essence. But the essence is not sufficient for the thing to be realized. In addition to essence it must also have existence. An imaginary horse with a hundred heads and ten wings, although it might be said to have an essence (which enables it to be conceptualized), nevertheless does not exist because the essence is not accompanied by existence. Nor, conversely, can there be existence without an existent entity.

Yet neither essence nor existence can lead to the realization of a thing unless they are united together, just as the birth of a child is dependent on three elements: a father, a mother, and their union. The first stage of the process of coming into being, the sage of the Will, is the source of the things existence; the second stage, Determination, is the source of its essence; and the third, Destiny, of their coming together. In this way, the first three stages of creation constitute the minimum conditions for the reality of any being.
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As we have seen, Will is the source of the things existence, Determination is the essence (which allows it to be conceptualized), and Destiny is the coming together of them both, and, once they come together, they become a reality realized by a person.

There's alot more illustrations and points, but this seems to be the basic truth of the Trinity.

Thoughts?


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Re: The full meaning of the Trinity according to the Bab

Ahanu said:
Quote:
For anything to exist, it must have an essence. But the essence is not sufficient for the thing to be realized. In addition to essence it must also have existence. An imaginary horse with a hundred heads and ten wings, although it might be said to have an essence (which enables it to be conceptualized), nevertheless does not exist because the essence is not accompanied by existence. Nor, conversely, can there be existence without an existent entity.
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One side note on this: not every essence we can imagine is in fact an essence. Some are just imagination, or rather fancy (using Coleridge's distinction between the primary imagination as the faculty that grasps essences, and the fancy (= creative imagination) that generates things that did not previously exist. For example, when young children come to understand 'justice' they did not think it up, and in almost every case it was not explained to them: rather they saw just people and unjust people, and given sufficient examples, they grasped what justice is.

To try to grasp the trinity by thinking up ways it might fit together is, in my opinion, only a mind-opening exercise at best. The essence of the question is how the Manifestation and the Spirit relate to one another and the Godhead, how they can be in one sense the same and in another different. Baha'u'llah says:

Say: Naught is seen in My temple but the Temple of God, and in My beauty but His Beauty, and in My being but His Being, and in My self but His Self, and in My movement but His Movement, and in My acquiescence but His Acquiescence, and in My pen but His Pen, the Mighty, the All-Praised. There hath not been in My soul but the Truth, and in Myself naught could be seen but God. Beware lest ye speak of duality in regard to My Self, for all the atoms of the earth proclaim that there is none other God but Him, the One, the Single, the Mighty, the Loving. (The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 18)

Which seems to me more widely comprehensible than a reference to Kantian language of subject and object. Further, speaking I think in the personna of the believer, Baha'u'llah prays:

Thou knowest that my station is but an image of Thy station, that my virtues recount Thy virtues, that within mine inmost being naught can be found except the revelations of Thy signs, and that my very essence is but a reflection of the evidences of Thy unity.
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 139)
 
Re: The full meaning of the Trinity according to the Bab

Sen McGlinn said:
Which seems to me more widely comprehensible than a reference to Kantian language of subject and object.
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Personally, I found the philosophical jargon better to understand than the metaphysical jargon. I'm just trying to translate the Trinity into my own language and way of saying it (without loosing the meaning according to the Bab).

Thanks for the quotes.
 
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