faith to die for

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lost76

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hi... i wanted to your opinions of what i should do, or some places to look/search, as i got thinking, i believe in something greater than this life, but am unsure of what it is... normally im not religious, but am looking for something more in life, then i read something in a jewish forum about dieing for your beliefs... how many of you would for example if the inquistion was to start all over again, change your beliefs/faith in order preserve your life, and how many would die for it... this again got me thinking...
i would take what ever religion/belief/faith they threw at me to keep me alive... which means i have nothing that i am willing to die for.
i would die for another person to help them live, but for a god/dess not a chance.
where does this leave me?
i am at a complete loss, i want it, want to believe, embrace and love... but at this time a mere gust would rock the very foundations of anything i trust in.
i look forward to you opinions and help on this.
thanks for looking, thinking and taking time to reply.
 
Here's the Buddhist's approach:
Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas

The translator's note summarised it nicely:
"Although this discourse is often cited as the Buddha's carte blanche for following one's own sense of right and wrong, it actually says something much more rigorous than that. Traditions are not to be followed simply because they are traditions. Reports (such as historical accounts or news) are not to be followed simply because the source seems reliable. One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise. The ability to question and test one's beliefs in an appropriate way is called appropriate attention. The ability to recognize and choose wise people as mentors is called having admirable friends."
 
lost76 said:
i would die for another person to help them live, but for a god/dess not a chance. where does this leave me?
Click to expand...
Hi Lost, and welcome to the forum. You're in good company, we're all lost here. :)

I think your instincts are right. You would need to think long and hard before giving up your life for a cause. Who would this serve? The general good or just your own vanity? What would it prove if you died just to show everyone how much you believed you were right? We need more people ready to admit that they were wrong, that they really don't know everything.

In my experience, one living person can do a whole lot more for this planet than a whole legion of dead people. That's not to say there aren't times when the choice is between dying and betraying your friends and everyone who has stood alongside of you. Many brave people have put their lives on the line so that their children can live in a better world. But just dying to score a point, no.
 
Lost wrote:

how many of you would for example if the inquistion was to start all over again, change your beliefs/faith in order preserve your life, and how many would die for it... this again got me thinking...
i would take what ever religion/belief/faith they threw at me to keep me alive... which means i have nothing that i am willing to die for.
......................................

My own reply to you is that you've answered your own question in a sense.. You don't feel you would "die" for a belief.. but you don't really have a strong belief as you've stated:

i believe in something greater than this life, but am unsure of what it is... normally im not religious, but am looking for something more in life...

I think if you had a strong belief you might be more willing to sacrifice for it as you would be strongly identified with it.

I'll give an example from what I've heard in Iran which is a theocratic state.. The Baha'is there are a minority and the Baha'i Faith is outlawed..

The Baha'is there have faced years of persecution and are deprived of their rights to practise their religion.

Their faith is very deep and rooted in their families over the years. If they are asked to deny their faith they will refuse for the most part...so some are being abducted and imprisoned for their beliefs.

See:

The Bahá?í Question - Appendix I - Bahá?ís killed since 1978
 
The inquisition again... God(s) forbid.

I'm horrible at these sorts of thought experiments, because I always take the road not offered.

I'm Pagan. I believe my spiritual path is a life-affirming one. We value life, and we value quality of life. We also value justice and liberation. I'd say that "I'd rather die standing than live kneeling." In essence, life without freedom isn't worth much to me. Yet, real freedom is within, not simply freedom to express one's beliefs. Someone could feasibly force me to say I am this or that, or denounce what I believe, but it's only trampling on my external expression of liberation. No one can take away my internal freedom of thought, belief, and inner practice. On the other hand, social injustice sometimes must be combatted through external actions of various kinds (non-violent, in my ethical code).

Whether I would pretend to go along with whatever status quo was to preserve my life, or take a stand in an effort for social change, I cannot say. To me, this decision would have to be made in the moment, feeling the flows of the Universe and the most appropriate choice.

I can say, definitively, that I don't believe the Divine cares what I say I believe. My spiritual path is about action and experience, not belief. Beliefs are theories to be refined over time. What wouldn't be OK with me is to be coerced into action or practice that was unethical.

So, for example, forcing me to say I believe in Whatever-the-Heck- not very problematic (though unjust). Doesn't change my internal liberation, my mystical experience, or my ethics. Forcing me to kill someone under any circumstance- not do-able. I'd rather die first.

Realistically, though, if the U.S. became a theocracy ruled by nut-jobs and people were killing folks like me, I'd just retreat. I'd head out into the woods and make a go of it, leaving society behind. In my opinion, civilization isn't worth much if it is dictatorial.
 
Lost 76 said:
i would take what ever religion/belief/faith they threw at me to keep me alive... which means i have nothing that i am willing to die for.
Click to expand...
Desiring to keep yourself alive means that you believe that your life has value, and it does. You can invest the balance of that life instead of have it just disappear. It is natural to want to be of some benefit, because being of benefit is success. That comes from valuing your life. Your desire is a good and natural desire that in others has benefited you sometimes in the past, and now you desire to do what they have done for you. I have seen a man dying before, satisfied with his life because of his contribution. He was satisfied, and it was as if his life was not disappearing with him; because he invested his life before he died. In his case, he had given it to his children. The life of your body ends, but it can be invested before it ends into a life form of its own. Love is something we can give that goes on for a very long time, and it can compound over time like a chain reaction long after we are gone -- perhaps forever. Put the balance of your life into that, and that is as good as or better than dying for a cause.
 
the idea is not to die for faith, but to live for it if humanly possible. so as long as you're not being asked to publicly renounce it, commit murder or sexual immorality so that whoever is forcing you to do so can display a public triumph over G!D and Torah, you can take whatever measures are necessary to save your own life. actual halakhic martyrdom situations are pretty rare these days although i think being in, say, the position of daniel pearl a"h would certainly count. if i was in such a situation, G!D Forbid, i can't see how else it would play out. of course, one should do one's utmost to avoid putting oneself in such a position in the first place. we do not seek martyrdom, nor do we aspire to it.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I don't think the OP was about martyrdom.

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At the moment of death a soul will leave the body and take another birth according to three factors [as per the Vedas]:

1 "What you are thinking of at the time of death" [mind you: the mind goes hay-wire at the death bed --what to speak of sudden-surprise death]

2 "What you are desiring of at the time of death"

3 "What all your Works add-up to at the time of death"

These 3 factors may be conscientiously applicable, or as is the case 99% of the time of the world's poplulation, these 3 factors may be applicable as randomly do-able by "first-come-first-served" aka, general addmission.

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From the Bhagavad-Gita:
8.10: One who, at the time of death, fixes his life air between the eyebrows and, by the strength of yoga, with an undeviating mind, engages himself in remembering the Supreme Lord in full devotion, will certainly attain to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
8.5: And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.
2.12-13: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.
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The idea is to Die consciously without "Blacking or Blanking-out" at the time of death.

We have a cinematic example of dying consciously in Martin Scorsese's Movie "Kundun" ---where the Chief Tebetian Lama dies in sitting 'meditation' position.

The Conscious attention is not disturbed simply because the body that houses it is lost ---but this requires Human practice while alive.

The alternative is [as per the Vedas]:
Take birth in one of 8,400,000 species of living eneitities to pass time doing the 4-catagories of acts that all creatures perform, EAT-SLEEP-MATE-DEFEND.

The acts are in lieu of "Devotional-service-to-Godhead".

Godhead is [as per the Vedas]:

1 Nothingness void os space,

2 Every particle of matter-energy & Souls' life-force [the nucleus of each individual atom and each individual soul]

3 The Original First Person whence all Personal Qualities originate ---Godhead [aka, Bhagavan] possesses all Wealth, Strength, Fame, Beauty, Intelligence and Renunciation, unlimitedly.

We are souls in the material world of Time & matter enacting the pass-time of EATING-SLEEPING-MATING-DEFENDING in various concominant species of bodies as per our karma-phalam (fruits of our works) & our souls's unique thumb-print of acculturated/acclimated level of Consciousness--- birth-after-birth, since time-immemorial as per the Vedas.

Yours truely,
Bhaktajan the Bhakti yogi
 
For me, it really depends on the details of the situation. If it would keep others safe if I converted, then I would go through the motions of changing my religion so that I might have an opportunity to continue to benefit them. But if my lack of conversion would not endanger others and would be inspirational to those who would resist forced conversion, then I would not change.

But how can anyone change what is in your heart? Outward show is just outward show.
 
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