My spiritual beliefs - what does this make me?

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

You said,

"Who is to say the religion you are drawn to does not challenge you to discover your higher self."

--> I believe that some people are strongly drawn to a religion they practiced in recent reincarnations. I know of 'miraculous' conversions from both Christianity to Buddhism, and from Buddhism to Christianity. In both cases, I think it was merely a matter of the people recognizing a religion they 'remembered' and loved in previous reincarnations, so it only makes sense that they made the switch as soon as they came across these religions in this life.

 

[Thomas]

I think that is a reflection of a certain difference between us...(not the humility bit )

I think the humility bit is the important bit.

Yes, it was bordering on spooky, with hindsight!

I know the feeling ...

You Catholics and your sins

Hey, not just us! Buddhists have their demons too!

I do, have and will always suspend judgment...to a degree....and for a time...

Of course, treading one's own path one cannot ... that is the key of discipleship.

I hear you. Know the story of the professor that went to learn zen from the master? The master poured the tea until the professor's cup overflowed. "How can I teach you zen when your head is already full of your own opinions...?"

One of my favourites is from the history of the samurai ... the man who went to the Buddhist Master to learn the arts of swordsmanship. "How long?" he demanded. "Ten years," said the Master. "I can't wait that long! What if I practice twice as hard, day and night?"
"Twenty years."

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Who is to say the religion you are drawn to does not challenge you to discover your higher self.

Never said it didn't.

I am not speaking out against conversion. I was pointing out an attitude.

Thomas

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

For me, the path is created by me

well either that or your lost in woods

 

[wil]

"not everyone is free to choose their religion on fear of the death."

--> Yes they are. Or do you mean people who cannot leave because a gun is being held up to their heads?

Some people feel unable to leave because of an 'inner hysteria,' but such inner hysteria can be cured through counseling.

I'm glad you edited and added...

the first short and sweet 'yes they are' seemed one of a literal gramatical reading... the added notes are I believe what she is speaking of....living in a land where if you don't practice as told...you risk your life...

but don't many Christian sects actually do the same....if you don't do as we do, everlasting life is off the table.

Never said it didn't.

I am not speaking out against conversion. I was pointing out an attitude.

Thomas

I evidently misread the following to imply that us finding a religion to our liking, one that conforms to our beliefs, doesn't stretch us, but is almost a lazy way out....you know the ole stomp the dust off my feet of the wide road....

I rather think to point, emphasised in most (if not all) religions, is rising above oneself to meet it, rather than finding one that's convenient and suits one's sense of comfortability?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...don't many Christian sects actually do the same....if you don't do as we do, everlasting life is off the table [?]"

--> I strongly believe that switching from any one religion to any other religion does NOT automatically condemn anyone to eternal damnation. (And I strongly recommend anyone who is in such a religion to immediately head for the door.) Once people realize that no such eternal damnation occurs, they do a whole lot better.

But this leaves us with the problem of the fear and guilt that is left behind. People have to take two approaches. One is the intellectual approach outlined above. But realizing that such eternal damnation cannot happen only provides an intellectual peace of mind, and cannot provide an emotional peace of mind. For the emotional side, I can only suggest that people become very angry at church leaders who spread such teachings of eternal damnation. Anger is one of the few ways we have to get over such fear.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

I'd like to say I honor and respect all beliefs....but I do have issues with beliefs that don't allow others this freedom...hypocrisy I know.

i almost agree, I respect peoples right to their own beliefs and opinions although I do not necessarily respect the opinion beliefs themselves.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Can I repeat, I am not criticising anyone's religion ... I was highlighting a modern and suspect attitude towards religion as such.

True conversion is rare.

I evidently misread the following to imply that us finding a religion to our liking, one that conforms to our beliefs, doesn't stretch us, but is almost a lazy way out....you know the ole stomp the dust off my feet of the wide road....

I don't understand how, if what we find just affirms everything we've already determined, how it stretches us?

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

NCT, you said,

"...I respect peoples right to their own beliefs and opinions although I do not necessarily respect the opinion beliefs themselves."

--> I take it one step further. If two people can disagree, but do it in a friendly and understanding way, then a great deal of progress has been made. Unfortunately, some religions say that if I disagree with them I will go to hell -- not exactly "disagreeing in a friendly and understanding way"!

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

NCT, you said,

"...I respect peoples right to their own beliefs and opinions although I do not necessarily respect the opinion beliefs themselves."

--> I take it one step further. If two people can disagree, but do it in a friendly and understanding way, then a great deal of progress has been made. Unfortunately, some religions say that if I disagree with them I will go to hell -- not exactly "disagreeing in a friendly and understanding way"!

I'm not clear on the whole hell and eternal damnation issue, personally as a Christian the certainty of ever lasting life with the Father is enough for me as to hell if its real and if its permanent I will leave that to God for now.

and I agree its good to be able agree to disagree

 

[Thomas]

Hi NiceCupOfTea
(Are you English?)

... personally as a Christian the certainty of ever lasting life with the Father is enough for me as to hell if its real and if its permanent I will leave that to God for now.

There are ever those in any tradition who delight in the suffering of their neighbour.

I can only speak for Catholicism, but we do not say that if one disagrees with Catholicism one will go to hell. Quite the reverse, in fact:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation"
(CCC 847)

My prayer for those who continually and erroneously, in their ignorance, present a false and detrimental image of Christ, is the same as His:
'Forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

As for me, like yourself, I rest in my faith in God's grace and love, for me, and for all mankind ... that His will be realised, that all come to know His love.

Thomas

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Hi NiceCupOfTea
(Are you English?)


There are ever those in any tradition who delight in the suffering of their neighbour.

I can only speak for Catholicism, but we do not say that if one disagrees with Catholicism one will go to hell. Quite the reverse, in fact:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation"
(CCC 847)

My prayer for those who continually and erroneously, in their ignorance, present a false and detrimental image of Christ, is the same as His:
'Forgive them, for they know not what they do.'

As for me, like yourself, I rest in my faith in God's grace and love, for me, and for all mankind ... that His will be realised, that all come to know His love.

Thomas

Yeah I am English why do you ask ?

nice Prayer BTW

 

[Thomas]

Yeah I am English why do you ask ?

The cuppa, that was all ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

NCT,

I'm glad to hear that you are a Christian who does not believe in eternal damnation. (At least I think that is what you are saying.) Chrisitianity definitely has a history of teaching the idea of eternal damnation, and if Chrisitianity is getting away from that idea, that is a move in the right direction.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

NCT,

I'm glad to hear that you are a Christian who does not believe in eternal damnation. (At least I think that is what you are saying.) Chrisitianity definitely has a history of teaching the idea of eternal damnation, and if Chrisitianity is getting away from that idea, that is a move in the right direction.

i am undecided about the doctrine of hell as I have no personal revelation of it, I prefer to concentrate on the carrot instead of the stick, the carrot being eternal life with the Father through faith in Jesus Christ which is freely offered to all.

 

[Thomas]

Christianity definitely has a history of teaching the idea of eternal damnation, and if Christianity is getting away from that idea, that is a move in the right direction.

As long as man has true ontological freedom, then his own extinction must be a possibility — without it, man is not free, but operates under some order of ignorance or coercion.

One of the marks of Catholicism is the unlimited freedom it offers with regard to its eventual horizon — I know of no equivalent, and one of its attractions is its rigorous pursuit of a full and complete metaphysic ... it's logic is faultless and it's the only metaphysical system I have not been able to bust!

Eternal damnation? Well, it must exist as a possibility, as it exists as a human choice and goal of action, and man is not obliged to accept God, therefore not obliged to accept the gifts of God. Again — it is an axiom that man is free, and this freedom can be pursued to its ontological end.

What I would wonder, is how one can express a belief in karma as a principle, but then interpret it as relative and conditional?

Thomas

 

[wil]

I don't understand how, if what we find just affirms everything we've already determined, how it stretches us?

We find a group that agrees with our principles and understandings of spirit, and then studying and playing together those understandings are tested, expanded, stretched... you don't see how? Tell me about the group you belong to....do you not agree with its tennants, does it not stretch you?

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation"
(CCC 847)

So if I've listened to your preachin, and don't accept it....

Is that my fault you didn't make me understand?

Or are you saying we ALL can look forward to eternal salvation as it is the fault of the communicator for lacking the skill to get it through my thick skull....therefor no fault of my own?

Seems to me like CCC 487 was written to solve the question "What about those who died young or never heard of a missionary or the bible...will G!d not let them in heaven?"

eg...how does that play out to Jews, Bhuddists, Jains, Muslims, who've heard the 'word' and reject it? No fault of their own insurance or not?

 

[Thomas]

Actually Nick ...

I know we've clashed in the past, but this is an attempt at rapprochment and a step toewards mutual understanding ...

So in a nutshell I would put two points:
The first is that in traditional orthodox Christianity (sadly I am obliged to observe there now exists huge differences in doctrine) if one can posit the idea of an absolute mode of union, then one can posit the idea of an absolute mode of separation, which in volitional terms has historically been presented as 'eternal separation' or damnation.

In this way Christian metaphysics avoids setting up a dichotomy (such as Manicheanism) by positing not the opposite of a state, but its utter absence.

So in the metaphysical sense, it is not the the (Christian) soul suffers eternal torment (oh! Danté!), but rather the soul suffers extinction ...

(To understand the metaphysics of this principle properly, a discussion of the Scriptural references to gehenna would be most fruitful.)

My second point would be: If one expresses a belief in karma as a principle, is there a karmic dimension that equates to the Christian idea of absolute end ... or are karmic states always relative to something other?

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

We find a group that agrees with our principles and understandings of spirit, and then studying and playing together those understandings are tested, expanded, stretched... you don't see how?

Not really ... You've already said that the group basically endorses what you bring to it ... I still don't see the test or the stretch ...

As Jesus said, loving one's friends is easy ... loving one's enemy is a much harder discipline.

Tell me about the group you belong to....do you not agree with its tenets, does it not stretch you?

I agree with them, because I am logically obliged to and cannot resist the argument ... but do I like it? Not always ... it certainly doesn't make life easy, at times. So yes, it does stretch me.

eg...how does that play out to Jews, Bhuddists, Jains, Muslims, who've heard the 'word' and reject it? No fault of their own insurance or not?

Are you looking to find fault, to find something to berate Christianity for?

Who is saved and who isn't, and whether anyone is saved or not, isn't up to me or you, that's a matter between God and the individual. All I'm saying is, we hope and pray that 'all men are saved' without distinction.

Thomas

 

[wil]

It appears we are in agreement on the first two...but just not knowing it yet. I said I agree with the beliefs, not that they are easy. We believe that diluting your principles is violating the adultery commandment and not encouraging a youngsters art endeavors could be construed as 'murdering' creativity...ah the power of the word...and then of course there is that damn mirror, and I've often said of all the things I had to give up to become a unitic, I miss blame the most.

But as to the latter...not trying to pick a fight....just asking the questions...trying to understand.... You say it was quite the opposite and point to a catechism that I don't believe validates that so I ask for clarification of your interpretation.