Oh, and I am one of those Christians... I don't believe G!d "told" anyone to kill anyone, I believe those passages are either metaphor or man blaming G!d for their actions.
islam, abraham?
- Thread starter vinny
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Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Wil I am sure many things in the Old Testament need to be read in context and were time appropriate, same with the Quran and if Christians wish to bin the Old Testament that's up to them, yay for peace. My example was only to show that people pick and choose which parts of scripture they want to follow and to truly follow a scripture I think we need to study and work out which parts were metaphor, what was the context, time appropriate action, etc or we are not understanding scripture, we are just choosing the parts we like.
Another example would be from Judaism. I'm so sick of hearing people say Jews can have sex with a girl who is 3 years and 1 day old, this is about marriage contracts, not pedophilia and that would have been appropriate at the time when girls were entered into marriage contracts, all over the world, at very early ages to protect tribal and land ties. People can't simply choose to ignore that part of the Talmud, they just need to understand it correctly.
Another example would be from Judaism. I'm so sick of hearing people say Jews can have sex with a girl who is 3 years and 1 day old, this is about marriage contracts, not pedophilia and that would have been appropriate at the time when girls were entered into marriage contracts, all over the world, at very early ages to protect tribal and land ties. People can't simply choose to ignore that part of the Talmud, they just need to understand it correctly.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
IMO, There is lots of "If someone does [ACTION], kill them" that was meant quite literally in the OT. God had a reason, of course we could discuss the legitimacy of such, but either way it doesn't change the fact that the OT is rampant with issues to be dealt with using death. I was never one of the Abrogationists when I studies the Bible, so I took to it as the Law is there, and Jesus' (PBUH) Message was that it is more righteous (or further the only righteous choice) to forgive people of these sins, and let God decide what to do with them later. I also figured that forgiveness of these crimes doesn't mean no punishment, but rather less punishment (instead of death, do lashes or jail time). This is mostly how I read the Bible now still. I've tried discussing this with Christian friends, but most seem stuck in the "Jesus saved us by being crucified and killed on the cross" and "judge not..." as a reason not to claim someone guilty. To which I find a major flaw in accountability. That is my Opinion anyway.
I'm talking about God did to go kill all those people (genocide) and then asks...did you kill them all? No go back and kill all the women and children and old people too...kill them all but save the virgins for yourself.... I don't buy that as literal...
That would be man mking gos in his image
..
That would be man mking gos in his image
..
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Well to be fair in Islam we are told to make 70 excuses for our brother, is that also a major flaw in accountability?
To be honest this is an issue the Muslim world really needs to look at IMO ... why so many choose to take the most severe path. An example, women are still being stoned for adultery but how many of them do you think we're having zina in a public place (in order to have 4 reliable male witnesses see the genitals join together)? How many do you think confessed three times without retracting their confession (many of course go to the police to report they have been raped and are then charged with adultery because they 'confessed to zina'). Some are charged with adultery because they fall pregnant outside marriage but how many of those girls were raped and scared to report it in cast they were seen as having confessed to zina???
Where is our desire to make 70 excuses for our brother? That is not to say we should not follow shariah but we should at least get our house in order first.
To be honest this is an issue the Muslim world really needs to look at IMO ... why so many choose to take the most severe path. An example, women are still being stoned for adultery but how many of them do you think we're having zina in a public place (in order to have 4 reliable male witnesses see the genitals join together)? How many do you think confessed three times without retracting their confession (many of course go to the police to report they have been raped and are then charged with adultery because they 'confessed to zina'). Some are charged with adultery because they fall pregnant outside marriage but how many of those girls were raped and scared to report it in cast they were seen as having confessed to zina???
Where is our desire to make 70 excuses for our brother? That is not to say we should not follow shariah but we should at least get our house in order first.
Zina?
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Zina = sex outside marriage, including adultery
salaam sis
i was reading your post and one thing caught my eye; you have converted for a long time now right?, but why do you keep on righting the word 'God' like the Jews with - in the middle of g and d?; they do it as they say we dont know Gods real name ... but muslims know Gods real name so rather interesting to me why you still do that???; could it be that you have not been able to renounce judaism beliefs that go against Islam in your heart? if so then this is very serious sis; your learning and views of Islam will be compromised with your former religion and also you will be a hypocrite to Allah
pregnancy when their husband is away [and he couldn't have been the one ... ] is also another form of proof; some muslim women do want to go to heaven by confessing and getting the punishment as a form of purging of their sins.
taqiyyah in the way the non-muslims associate it to Islam is only done by the shias and shias are a tiny astray minority amongst muslims but ofcourse when the anti-Islams write about it, it is convenient for them to make out all muslims use it that way!
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
There is a major issue with people taking our words too literal and then warping them to fit a wierd desire such as protecting a man from being called a rapist by claiming the woman was an adulterer or fornicator.
btw, 70 excuses for our brother comes from a Hadith if i'm not mistaken. I've so many comments to make about such a broad statement that both support and deny it. In short I'd say it holds accountability if it is followed through. Use your example... but the man's side (Just for sake of argument)
He raped her...
1) Are you sure she is telling the truth that intercourse was enacted on her?... (assume yes is answered)
2) Is she maybe mistaken?... (no)
3) Is it even possible for him to be there?... (yes)
...
40) was his act intentional, or did he mistake her for his wife playing the I like it rough game? (intentional..)
Lashes, Jail, stoning, etc whatever is legal... If any of the above say he didn't do it intentionally... maybe you lighten the sentence to something easier (Jail time)... this is all assuming you had the proper number of witnesses in the first place, even her confession (assuming she confessed to doing zina outright) is only 1 witness, is 1 way of looking at it...
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
or is it possible that since wil normally does this she is respecting his views by writing it in the same way? g-d is safer that God IMO, due to it being known which God we are referring to and not just a god such as the polytheists have?salaam sis
i was reading your post and one thing caught my eye; you have converted for a long time now right?, but why do you keep on righting the word 'God' like the Jews with - in the middle of g and d?; they do it as they say we dont know Gods real name ... but muslims know Gods real name so rather interesting to me why you still do that???; could it be that you have not been able to renounce judaism beliefs that go against Islam in your heart? if so then this is very serious sis; your learning and views of Islam will be compromised with your former religion and also you will be a hypocrite to Allah
Allah is simply the Arabic word for G!d... The Jews have their own words...as does every other language....
A Cup Of Tea
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Over analysing much? Can we keep to the issues and leave the person out of it?could it be that you have not been able to renounce judaism beliefs that go against Islam in your heart? if so then this is very serious sis; your learning and views of Islam will be compromised with your former religion and also you will be a hypocrite to Allah
yeah but i was a bit upset to see that; i know muslim woman from before; she had some very hypocrytical views in past and thought she might have changed as her knowledge grew and seeing that brought back all the old memories!
She has been the best explainer of Islam to non Muslims on this board. Without animosity or sarcasm or getting defensive she has repeatedly taken tough questions and provided an understanding to others chapter and verse....
If you think her hypocritical.... I find it interesting you are so quiet on others who post on behalf of your belief system.
If you think her hypocritical.... I find it interesting you are so quiet on others who post on behalf of your belief system.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
could it be that you have not been able to renounce judaism beliefs that go against Islam in your heart? if so then this is very serious sis; your learning and views of Islam will be compromised with your former religion and also you will be a hypocrite to Allah
Wa alaikum Salam
You make many assumptions. I was never a Jew. I use G-d because this is an interfaith forum and I try to respect others beliefs as well as my own.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
You seem very fond of the word hypocrite. I assume you mean views you don't personally agree with.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
70 excuses comes from Hamdun al-Qassar, narrated by Imam Bayhaqi in his Shu`ab al-Iman
"If a friend among your friends errs, make seventy excuses for them. If your hearts are unable to do this, then know that the shortcoming is in your own selves ".
We know from the Prophet (pbuh) he would try not to punish people unless it was unavoidable Take the example of the woman who came to him to confess to zina, he sent her away twice to rethink and only on the third confession did he order her punishment. Also examples like some Shafi'i jurists who said that pregnancy of a divorced woman is not proof of zina, As the Quran and Hadith do not state pregnancy as evidence of zina and a pregnancy can last 4-7 years.
Now compare that to the number of women in certain countries who are waiting for their death sentence for zina but who actually victims of rape. Of course some will have zinc and then claim rape when they find they are pregnant. But the point I was trying to make is so many now just want to go for the most severe interpretations, instead of looking for reasons to lessen the charges or punishment.
Not sure if that makes more sense or not, I've had some very troubling news today so my brain isn't fully switched on.