bob x
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you did. This idea that the waiter who is handing out the bread is "in the person of Christ" is the arrogant usurpation which transformed the Church into a totalitarian regime of astonishing brutality and rapacity.
Towards the ordination of women in the Catholic Church
- Thread starter Thomas
- Start date
bob x
Well-Known Member
I would say the same of you. Medieval Christendom was a horrible regime, whose overthrow has been a long and bloody process, not entirely complete even to this day. This was surely not what Jesus had in mind, and the question arises of how it could possibly have turned out that way.
Similar to what was asked of Ben Franklin when he walked out of the hall in Philedelphia...
"What kind of government do we have?" Franklin's reply..."a Federal Republic, if you can keep it"...
bob x
Well-Known Member
The history of Christianity certainly does add credence to one of the premises of Christianity, that human nature has some deeply-rooted tendencies toward evil built in.
Therefore, we can assert that:
Christianity per se is not evil (it challenges the tendency), human nature however tends in that direction, furthermore
Christianity offers a solution to the problem of evil, if man wants to make the effort.
Not all do.
And some who do, fail.
And some who do, succeed.
Does the failure invalidate Christianity? No.
Does that make Christianity responsible for the evil that men do? No.
So once again we see the human failing, evident from the dawn of creation on, in the attempt to lay the blame for human faults elsewhere.
If people put as much effort into making Christianity work (or indeed any spiritual tradition), as they do criticising it, the world would be a better place for it.
Thomas
Thomas, how does the Catholic church regard it's own reported flaws of the past?
For example, it's hard not to see in even recent issues such as child abuse allegations, that the Roman Catholic Church's first priority is to look after itself, and hide problems, to the detriment of others, even Catholic believers.
You mention that Christianity offers a solution to evil - so how does an organisation which has so obviously been used for "evil" purposes in the past, and institutionally protects "evil" even within itself, therefore address the conundrum?
For example, it's hard not to see in even recent issues such as child abuse allegations, that the Roman Catholic Church's first priority is to look after itself, and hide problems, to the detriment of others, even Catholic believers.
You mention that Christianity offers a solution to evil - so how does an organisation which has so obviously been used for "evil" purposes in the past, and institutionally protects "evil" even within itself, therefore address the conundrum?
It has confessed and apologised, that's a matter of public record.
Well here I would make three delineations:
1: The Pope;
2: The Curia (the administrative institution);
3: The faithful;
This current pope has spoken out more openly and most unambiguously about the shameful and sinful actions — he has acknowledged that such accts weaken the credibility of the Church in the world.
The curia, tragically, display the same tendencies of human institutions everywhere, to cover up their errors, rather than face them.
The faithful, and I include myself in this, have often felt they have been left to take the flak of public opinion, with no support whatsoever.
Interestingly, the case of the arrest of the pope on his visit to England was tested by lawyers and found, in English and American Law, to be insupportable. One has to demonstrate a clear intent on behalf of the accused to support, actively, the crime in question. No such evidence exists (as much as the media seeks to manufacture and imply that there is). Most commentators are ready to acknowledge that the current pope has done more to clear up the mess than his predecessors.
I still think there is a long way to go.
As someone who works in media communications, I find the Vatican handling of the abuse scandals absolutely shameful ... too little, too late ... and all the good work (?) done, undone by statements from geriatric cardinals who should have been told to keep their mouths shut.
I cannot agree with the first part of that statement (at least), and would seek clarification on the latter ... too much is assumed, based on popular conceptions, those things that everybody knows, but have no foundation in actuality (the Office of the Inquisition is a classic example) ... but the point remains that the doctrine does not support nor condone the evil done, and that's my point.
Put another way, I am Catholic, I have a Catholic moral sensibility, and I am not an abuser. Therefore I have the right to defend the doctrine.
Someone I spoke to observed that the figures of abuse fall roughly in line with the cultural average, it is neither unique nor special within the Catholic Church in that regard, he also said he was waiting for the next round of scandals, in the teaching profession, the medical profession ... as you may be aware, abuse in the Social Services, tasked with the care of children, have also been emerging.
The Church response is along the lines that what emerges are cultural practices brought into the Church, cultural ills, and in some cases the evidence would seem to suggest as much.
Personally I find the curia too ready to assert an inviolate spiritual heritage and inheritance on the one hand, and the institution of men on the other ... and when the latter comes under fire, it takes cover under the former, as if the claim against a sinful priest is an assault on Our Lord Himself.
The Church is shrinking, and some voices have expressed the choice of a smaller church, faithful to the teaching, than a larger church of sinners. I stand against this with all my being — the church was never founded to be an elite organisation with an overweening sense of an hierarchical order.
If that means that offences must come, then so be it ... but when we get the case of rogue and criminal doctors in the medical profession, I don't see the call to disband the National Health System ...
(something the current govt. is in the covert process of achieving, and if you like in the UK I suggest you follow developments very closely)
Thomas
bob x
Well-Known Member
The pedophilia scandals have their roots in the legal immunities which priests enjoyed under the medieval regime. Becket fought and died to ensure that the English common law, which had not been deferential to Rome, also exempted priests from punishment for criminal conduct. Frankly, he deserved to die: the cause he was fighting for was evil.
Thomas, you are playing an equivocation game when you say "Christianity" is not the evil: there is what Jesus taught, and then there is the Catholic church, and they are not the same; this institution of the priesthood, with an aura of quasi-magical powers, is precisely what I say as the major disconnect.
Thomas, you are playing an equivocation game when you say "Christianity" is not the evil: there is what Jesus taught, and then there is the Catholic church, and they are not the same; this institution of the priesthood, with an aura of quasi-magical powers, is precisely what I say as the major disconnect.
bob x
Well-Known Member
And I disagree right back, neener neener! Come on Thomas, what was the point of even posting?
The point was, Bobx, that you have progressed from a very well-founded critique, into the realm of the subjective — in that the conclusions you draw are not necessarily the result of the evidence as you present it.
So what I am saying is that I, and many others, not necessarily Catholic, nor even Christian, are not obliged to agree with you.
I have read comments by more than one atheist who are quite well disposed towards the priesthood.
Thomas
So what I am saying is that I, and many others, not necessarily Catholic, nor even Christian, are not obliged to agree with you.
I have read comments by more than one atheist who are quite well disposed towards the priesthood.
Thomas
bob x
Well-Known Member
Who said you were "obliged" to agree? Am I "obliged" to agree with you?
Look, the cause of the great revolt against the Catholic church was the incredible disjunction between the poverty and humility of Christ's disciples and the wealth and arrogance of the priestly class, something which could be concealed as long as copies of the old texts were rare and literacy even rarer. You talk as if this revolt happened for no reason at all, except human perversity; and as if grudging apologies, after centuries of bloody struggle to undo these usurpations of power, given only to preserve such power as the church hangs on to, make everything all right.
Thomas, my first thought was actually the pornopacy, when it was plainly obvious this was a political entity at work.
You seem to agree that the actions of the curia seem driven by political protectionist interests - so how would this therefore align with your statement earlier of Christianity being against evil? If the main instrument of defence believes in fighting "evil" but in fact could be accused of being just another political interest group promoting it?
I'm not trying to launch an attack here - I'm just curious on how what appears from the outside to be a conundrum is resolved within the faith.
You seem to agree that the actions of the curia seem driven by political protectionist interests - so how would this therefore align with your statement earlier of Christianity being against evil? If the main instrument of defence believes in fighting "evil" but in fact could be accused of being just another political interest group promoting it?
I'm not trying to launch an attack here - I'm just curious on how what appears from the outside to be a conundrum is resolved within the faith.
bob x
Well-Known Member
It's been going on for over six hundred years now, and has dramatically diminished the Vatican's power; I would think you might have noticed.