Thoughts on God

Thomas

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"When we know that something is, it remains to inquire in what way it is, so that we may know what it is. But since concerning God we cannot know what He is but only what He is not, we cannot consider in what way God is but only in what way He is not. So first we must ask in what way He is not, secondly how He may be known to us and thirdly how we may speak of Him"
Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologiae, I-I, q3, prologue

Like him or leave him, one can't fault him.

Thomas
 
Well it was more a contemplative point than a direct question.

But I would suggest that God is not anything we can think of, because God is beyond categorisation.

That was what Thomas was alluding to ... we can certainly say that God is like this or that, based on rational logic, or poetic imagery, but we also know that God is more.

Even if one says 'God is Wisdom', 'God is Good', etc., we cannot know the wisdom or goodness of God, only that if man can be wise, or good, and wise and good seem sensible things to be, then God must be wiser and better than anything we can think of or classify ... or that our experience of God suggests he is wise and good, but that's only our experience, that tells us nothing of what God actually is.

The Sun is warm and bright ... but how does the sun perceive itself?

That kind of thing.

Thomas
 
God is NOT a Human, angel, despot, Tsar, demigogue;

God is NOT without 'Potency'

God is NOT without pastimes;

God is NOT without fame;

God is NOT without a name;

God is NOT with inebriety.

God is NOT ignorant;

God is NOT without Lovers, servants, Mother, Father, Aunts, Cousins, pets, teachers;

God is NOT tinged by Time;

God is NOT encumbered by material limits.

God is NOT lethargic;

God is NOT alone;

God is NOT temporary;

God is NOT a changing entity;

God is NOT lost;

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
NOTE: In contra-distinction to 'What God is not', Mankind has
(as one of the countless varieties of species of biological machinery)
the unique benediction to seek out the Personage of God.

Lower lifeforms & indeed Higher lifeforms too, both do NOT allow the fortunate-Karma to "seek out God with stauch determination' ---but in lieu of that, base sense-gratification is made available in abundance.
 
The process of elimination is a standard intellectual process of viewing the metaphysical wonderment of our cosmic existance in Hindu (Vedantic) Metaphysics ---is referred to by use of the term, "Net-Neti".

[Bold Bracketed text '[]' shown below is by me, Bhaktajan]:

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Neti neti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Hinduism, and in particular Jnana Yoga [Yoga practice of intellectual Study] and Advaita Vedanta [the School of Vedanta Study that summises its conclusion as: "All-IS-ONE"], neti neti may be a chant or mantra [Prayer --silent or aloud], meaning "not this, not this", or "neither this, nor that" (neti is sandhi [Grammer Rules] from na iti "not so"). Neti neti is a saying found in the Upanishads [Yoga practice of intellectual Study] and especially attributed to the Avadhuta Gita [I do not know anything of this Book; But I do Know that 'Avadhuta' is a wandering mendicate].
Neti neti is also an analytical process of conceptualizing something by clearly defining what it is not. One of the key elements of Jnana Yoga is often a "neti neti search."
Adi Shankara was one of the foremost Advaita philosophers who advocated the neti-neti approach.
Neti-neti is held as the approach to understand the concept of Brahman without using affirmative (and thereby inadequate) definitions or descriptions of Brahman, comparable to apophatic theology in Eastern Christianity.
The purpose of the exercise is to negate conscious rationalizations, and other distractions from the purpose of a meditation. It is also a sage view on the nature of the Divine, and especially on the attempts to capture and describe the essence of God. In this respect, the phrase succinctly expresses the standpoint of negative theology.
 
"When we know that something is, it remains to inquire in what way it is, so that we may know what it is. But since concerning God we cannot know what He is but only what He is not, we cannot consider in what way God is but only in what way He is not. So first we must ask in what way He is not, secondly how He may be known to us and thirdly how we may speak of Him"
Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologiae, I-I, q3, prologue

Like him or leave him, one can't fault him.

Thomas
God is great, beer is good, people are crazy...does that about sum it up? (lol):D

[youtube]PKpQRjj_WbU[/youtube]
 
"When we know that something is, it remains to inquire in what way it is, so that we may know what it is. But since concerning God we cannot know what He is but only what He is not, we cannot consider in what way God is but only in what way He is not. So first we must ask in what way He is not, secondly how He may be known to us and thirdly how we may speak of Him"
Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologiae, I-I, q3, prologue Like him or leave him, one can't fault him. Thomas

I started to get into a whole windy rigamorole on this but realized I’d just end up in the same commonplaces, so I’m gonna try to boil my blather down to a couple of quick points:
- Negative theology and cognate language from other traditions is at base [in]distinguishable from [in]numerable words we use every day. The examples are end[less]. We say something is [in]definite. We say some bread is [un]leavened. What all these kinds of words have in common is that lacking context they literally mean nothing, refer to nothing, erase themselves (no I’m not going to try to go all Derrida on ya; don’t have the interest or training, just trying to make a simple point). It’s only in context that they convey any usable meaning, do any measurable work, and of course some contexts provide more support than others. If I say “here’s some unleavened bread” it may tell you a lot about what that bread is like to eat. If I say “examples are endless” you may simply feel anxious that I’m about to natter on [in]definitely.
- So for negative theology to have any real meaning or do any real work, it needs that supportive context. In isolation, it truly is the pointless blather a Dan Dennett, say, claims it to be. But what kind of context does it need? Here we don’t have to speculate. The traditions hold the context to be some system or technology of mental cultivation, some yoga east or west. The belief is that in a mind properly prepared negative theology or some analogue will help trigger a return to a fundamental level of experience or state of consciousness (given a subject who is predisposed to this kind of procedure).
- Now a Dan Dennett would deny any special status to this state of consciousness, but what he couldn’t deny is that under the right circumstances an effect is produced (since even at the present stage of neuroscience we can to some degree track these things), and that negative language probably had some role in producing that effect, i.e., we’re dealing with actual language that does some kind of work, not just empty blather.
- But what about the use of such language absent a serious program of mental cultivation? I think it is permissible, and certainly we do it all the time, but here we have to manage the context more through art than technique. We need the skills of a stand-up comic, the ability to gauge the audience, the occasion and the ambient discourse. And we need to show tremendous restraint, since this kind of language is inherently addictive; it can have the sickening effect of eating too many sweets.
- Here I think an opponent like ol’ Dan serves a useful function, with his relentless cold showers of rationality. When he sneers at well-meaning souls like Karen Armstrong for saying things like (and this is not an exact quote) “God is far too great to exist” he’s certainly being kinda mean, but he also has a good point: in the hands of a popularizing apologist like Armstrong negative language no longer does much work as language, becomes in effect no more than blather, or at best provides a momentary sugar high, empty theological calories.
- Of course I speak as someone with a life-long addiction to this kind of thing, and who as a metaphysical stand-up has repeatedly bombed.

Vimalakirti
 
Negative theology and cognate language from other traditions is at base [in]distinguishable from [in]numerable words we use every day. The examples are end[less]. We say something is [in]definite. We say some bread is [un]leavened. What all these kinds of words have in common is that lacking context they literally mean nothing, refer to nothing, erase themselves (no I’m not going to try to go all Derrida on ya; don’t have the interest or training, just trying to make a simple point).
I think that's the case with language generally. That's where Tradition steps in. As I keep trying to remin people, the tradition wrote the scripture, not the other way round. To pick up the scripture, dump the tradition, and read a new meaning into it is a nonsense.

I also think 'common sense' a la Lonergan (if you've heard of him) is misunderstood, and undervalued.

So for negative theology to have any real meaning or do any real work, it needs that supportive context. In isolation, it truly is the pointless blather a Dan Dennett, say, claims it to be.
Again ... tradition ...

But what kind of context does it need? Here we don’t have to speculate. The traditions hold the context to be some system or technology of mental cultivation, some yoga east or west.
Quite. Prayer.

The belief is that in a mind properly prepared negative theology or some analogue will help trigger a return to a fundamental level of experience or state of consciousness (given a subject who is predisposed to this kind of procedure).
Well ... that's quite an Eastern, or at least modernist viewpoint, isn't it?

It's not the case at all with Christianity. Any 'experience' of the Divine is a gift, not attainable by any technique.

There is a lovely story from the Moslem Tradition:
Jesus was walking along the road, and He came upon a holy man by the wayside. "What are you doing?" Jesus asked. "I have dedicated my life to God," the man replied, "I spend my days in contemplating the Divine."
Jesus thought for a moment and said, "Who takes care of you?" The holy man waved a hand, "My brother sees to all my needs."
"Then your brother loves God more than you do," Jesus observed, and continued on His way.

Now a Dan Dennett would deny any special status to this state of consciousness, but what he couldn’t deny is that under the right circumstances an effect is produced (since even at the present stage of neuroscience we can to some degree track these things), and that negative language probably had some role in producing that effect, i.e., we’re dealing with actual language that does some kind of work, not just empty blather.
Well its work, but it's not the divine ... as long as we do not convince ourselves we are more holy than our neighbour, because we can talk in apophatic terms ... and there are many who trade on that, believe me ...

Here I think an opponent like ol’ Dan serves a useful function, with his relentless cold showers of rationality. When he sneers at well-meaning souls like Karen Armstrong for saying things like (and this is not an exact quote) “God is far too great to exist” he’s certainly being kinda mean, but he also has a good point: in the hands of a popularizing apologist like Armstrong negative language no longer does much work as language, becomes in effect no more than blather, or at best provides a momentary sugar high, empty theological calories.
Tell me about it ... I call it New Age ... but then that's me.

What about poetry, how Does dan handle that? Or music? Or silence?

Of course I speak as someone with a life-long addiction to this kind of thing, and who as a metaphysical stand-up has repeatedly bombed.
You must join me some time at Metaphysics Anonymous ...

Thomas
 
Well ... that's quite an Eastern, or at least modernist viewpoint, isn't it?
It's not the case at all with Christianity. Any 'experience' of the Divine is a gift, not attainable by any technique.

Hi Thomas

This problem did occur to me while I was writing this post. I don’t think it is (or should be) simply a matter of technique, or that there is a simple distinction between eastern technique and western grace. In Japanese Pureland Buddhism for example there is the distinction between “self-power” (jiriki) and “other-power” (tariki), and of course devotional strands of Indian religion also have their versions of grace.

And I think there is a meeting place in the middle. Consider that serious contemplative orders in Christianity are full of technique in that their whole complex discipline is constructed to prepare the ground for grace. Consider the traditional Catholic mass and other services, with their music, art, incense, formal structures. I wouldn’t be the first to say that all these technologies are there to prepare the ground for grace.

As for the more austere yogic disciplines of the east, it’s true that there’s far less talk of grace or its equivalent, but here I would make two points.

First, ideas of grace are to be found: as I’ve mentioned, even the arch non-dualist Shankara wrote devotional songs; “shradda” or faith is one of the cardinal virtues in Buddhist practice; in Patanjali’s foundational yoga sutras one of the five cultivations is the invocation and reliance on Ishvara, a name for Saguna Brahman, or the personal God.

Second, I think we have to consider the underlying assumption of these traditions: that we’re already in the reality we’re looking for. So properly speaking there can be no instrumental relationship between whatever technique we employ and access to that reality. It’s all preparatory (and as ungraspable as grace). The Buddha’s eightfold path is a good example. It sets out a series of practices, intellectual, ethical, meditational, none of which have a direct cause and effect relationship with the goal of nibbana, which cannot be caused, but only serve to clear the path of obstacles like greed, hatred and delusion. This non-causal aspect of enlightenment is affirmed ever more explicitly in the language of non-duality as Buddhism developed, and is brought out most entertainingly in Zen.

But then there's Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas: the Kingdom of God is spread upon the Earth but men do not see it.

What about poetry, how Does dan handle that? Or music? Or silence?

Here you’ve put your finger on where the new atheists are most vulnerable. Dennett says that he views the universe as “super” and “natural” but not “supernatural”. By turns his colleagues will cite the aesthetic impulse, landscapes or a peek through the Hubble telescope as worthy gateways to feelings of awe. The trouble is once they admit to anything like feelings of awe the game is up. They admit that there’s something in our deep experience that can’t be quantified (though they will hedge it around with the explications of evolutionary biology). More importantly I think they admit the primacy of concrete human experience itself, that complex, interdependent axis self/world where everything happens. And for good reason – if we can’t affirm the fundamental site of our humanity, we can’t affirm anything. This is the “yes” we all have to somehow get to, since this is the gateway through which everything passes, whether labeled science, religion or art.

The trouble is Dennett et al would police that site, legislate how and under what circumstances we are to experience awe and like emotions. To do that they impose on a vast complexity the Manichaen distinction science/superstition, and hobble the most intimate and subtle machinery we have for this kind of work: our own body/minds, or as the Buddha said, “this fathom-long body”.

It all comes down to the nature of the “yes”. BB in one of his recent posts noted the importance of choice at the heart of Judaism. It seems to me that choice comes in a series of forms: tribal, ethical, existential, etc., and that in each case we overwhelmingly answer “yes”, choose the tribe over isolation, good over evil, life over death, and that each of these affirmations is taken within a given set of rules, so that each “yes” is freighted with its specific context, and is bound to overlap and conflict at points with other yeses equally freighted.

But this is I think is as it should be, first, because no single yes can ever be enough to sum up the astonishing facts of existence (which after all is non-dual and beyond choice); second, because the yeses are or should be mutually corrective: engagement and renunciation mutually correct, as well as the intimacy of tribalism and the openness of universalism, and so on. And scientific method and subjective experience should also mutually correct.

Here I think we come to a pretty decent definition of “scientism”: it’s that point where science is practiced in a way to overturn this system of checks and balances between formative systems and legislates for the whole, by its own proprietary set of rules.

Characteristically, I’ve seen Richard Dawkins deny the very existence of scientism, let alone the application of the term to himself.

Vimalakirti
 
Hi Thomas

This problem did occur to me while I was writing this post. I don’t think it is (or should be) simply a matter of technique, or that there is a simple distinction between eastern technique and western grace. In Japanese Pureland Buddhism for example there is the distinction between “self-power” (jiriki) and “other-power” (tariki), and of course devotional strands of Indian religion also have their versions of grace.

And I think there is a meeting place in the middle. Consider that serious contemplative orders in Christianity are full of technique in that their whole complex discipline is constructed to prepare the ground for grace. Consider the traditional Catholic mass and other services, with their music, art, incense, formal structures. I wouldn’t be the first to say that all these technologies are there to prepare the ground for grace.

As for the more austere yogic disciplines of the east, it’s true that there’s far less talk of grace or its equivalent, but here I would make two points.

First, ideas of grace are to be found: as I’ve mentioned, even the arch non-dualist Shankara wrote devotional songs; “shradda” or faith is one of the cardinal virtues in Buddhist practice; in Patanjali’s foundational yoga sutras one of the five cultivations is the invocation and reliance on Ishvara, a name for Saguna Brahman, or the personal God.

Second, I think we have to consider the underlying assumption of these traditions: that we’re already in the reality we’re looking for. So properly speaking there can be no instrumental relationship between whatever technique we employ and access to that reality. It’s all preparatory (and as ungraspable as grace). The Buddha’s eightfold path is a good example. It sets out a series of practices, intellectual, ethical, meditational, none of which have a direct cause and effect relationship with the goal of nibbana, which cannot be caused, but only serve to clear the path of obstacles like greed, hatred and delusion. This non-causal aspect of enlightenment is affirmed ever more explicitly in the language of non-duality as Buddhism developed, and is brought out most entertainingly in Zen.

But then there's Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas: the Kingdom of God is spread upon the Earth but men do not see it.



Here you’ve put your finger on where the new atheists are most vulnerable. Dennett says that he views the universe as “super” and “natural” but not “supernatural”. By turns his colleagues will cite the aesthetic impulse, landscapes or a peek through the Hubble telescope as worthy gateways to feelings of awe. The trouble is once they admit to anything like feelings of awe the game is up. They admit that there’s something in our deep experience that can’t be quantified (though they will hedge it around with the explications of evolutionary biology). More importantly I think they admit the primacy of concrete human experience itself, that complex, interdependent axis self/world where everything happens. And for good reason – if we can’t affirm the fundamental site of our humanity, we can’t affirm anything. This is the “yes” we all have to somehow get to, since this is the gateway through which everything passes, whether labeled science, religion or art.

The trouble is Dennett et al would police that site, legislate how and under what circumstances we are to experience awe and like emotions. To do that they impose on a vast complexity the Manichaen distinction science/superstition, and hobble the most intimate and subtle machinery we have for this kind of work: our own body/minds, or as the Buddha said, “this fathom-long body”.

It all comes down to the nature of the “yes”. BB in one of his recent posts noted the importance of choice at the heart of Judaism. It seems to me that choice comes in a series of forms: tribal, ethical, existential, etc., and that in each case we overwhelmingly answer “yes”, choose the tribe over isolation, good over evil, live over death, and that each of these affirmations is taken within a given set of rules, so that each “yes” is freighted with its specific context, and is bound to overlap and conflict at points with other yeses equally freighted.

But this is I think is as it should be, first, because no single yes can ever be enough to sum up the astonishing facts of existence (which after all is non-dual and beyond choice); second, because the yeses are or should be mutually corrective: engagement and renunciation mutually correct, as well as the intimacy of tribalism and the openness of universalism, and so on. And scientific method and subjective experience should also mutually correct.

Here I think we come to a pretty decent definition of “scientism”: it’s that point where science is practiced in a way to overturn this system of checks and balances between formative systems and legislates for the whole, by its own proprietary set of rules.

Characteristically, I’ve seen Richard Dawkins deny the very existence of scientism, let alone the application of the term to himself.

Vimalakirti
"Grace" is a "Talent" given to the "servant" (Us), by the Master (God). What that servant does with that "talent", determines the "Master's" mood with that servant.

Parable of the Talents/Minas: (Matthew_25:14-30 Luke_19:_12-28 )

Without grace, there is no tecnique. Without technique, there can be grace, but it is just as void as if there was nothing to begin with.
 
Vimalakirti,

Is that you Christopher Hitchens?

Are you taking my advice I sent you?

Study-up on Acid-Alkaline balance in the Body's internal chemistry.

The main organs must balance the pH of the blood by use of alkaline stores of Minerals to allow enymes to metabolise. The skin, breath & evacuation all eliminate toxins. All is done with clean-pH-correct blood stream.

Dear Christopher Hitchens,

I implore you to Study-up on Acid-Alkaline balance in the Body's internal chemistry.

Hare Krishna,
Bhaktajan

"When acidity and alkalinity are not properly balanced in the body, the breakdown may cause a myriad of chronic health problems that can be remedied with proper diet."

PS: If Vimalakirti is not Christopher Hitchens ----please get this message Christopher!
 
And I think there is a meeting place in the middle.
Oh indeed. As Quahom says, I'm not denying the value of technique altogether — technique prepares the ground, my point is technique is not causative of grace.

Marco Pallis, a Tibetan Buddhist, has written quite a lot about grace in Buddhism.

... because no single yes can ever be enough to sum up the astonishing facts of existence ...
I would discriminate between the 'yes' of the intellectual position, which has to be asserted constantly, and the 'yes' of one's being, which can start small, but is essentially the same yes. It starts in the darkness of absence, and ends in the darkness of presence. At various stages along the way, it is illuminated, but essentially, it is always dark.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I think the yes offered in 'blind faith' by a simple can reverberate longer, further and deeper than the yes of the intellectual 'breakthrough'.

I’ve seen Richard Dawkins deny the very existence of scientism, let alone the application of the term to himself.
I've seen someone use Richard Dawkins' methodology to prove that Richard Dawkins doesn't exist!

Thomas
 
I would discriminate between the 'yes' of the intellectual position, which has to be asserted constantly, and the 'yes' of one's being, which can start small, but is essentially the same yes. It starts in the darkness of absence, and ends in the darkness of presence. At various stages along the way, it is illuminated, but essentially, it is always dark.

Hi Thomas

Sure, that’s why I was careful to make the distinction between all these contingent yeses and the non-dual reality beyond. The “yes of one’s being” is something else altogether. We get to that special case of “yes” through (or against) our various thought systems. My pluralist point is that while each of us must choose which system(s) are most appropriate, in the aggregate they form a meta-system of checks & balances, so that no one (reasonably justifiable) system can be absolutely privileged over all the others. Here you invoke the language of Christian mysticism and faith, which is cool, but I’m not going to tell anyone who doesn’t use this kind of language, or who doesn’t even invoke the idea of faith, that they have no access to the “yes of one’s being”, since from my pov that “yes” and that “being” is everywhere.

Vimalakirti
 
My pluralist point is that while each of us

"WE" [as in 'us'] is an objective reality.

Having a subjective POV is an objective reality ---is it not?
 
"WE" [as in 'us'] is an objective reality.

Having a subjective POV is an objective reality ---is it not?

I’m not sure of your point, but I guess here I would try to distinguish between “fact” (what is the case) from concepts of “subject” and “object”, which have to do with our relationship to fact. Subjective states are not objects since by definition they can only be fully known by subjects. So there’s no doubt that subjective states exist, just not as objects.

And of course it doesn't make subjective states any less real or valid.

Vimalakirti
 
hi Vilmalakirti —

Can I head this up by saying, if it reads somewhat schizophrenic, that's because I find myself moving in different direction ... or in a different way along my course ... but I'll try and make myself plain ... but I must stress I'm talking only of the Christian Tradition.

Sure, that’s why I was careful to make the distinction between all these contingent yeses and the non-dual reality beyond.
As I see it, the non-dual reality beyond is inaccessible to us; it comes to us, we cannot get to it ... it is through those contingent yeses that we prepare the ground.

But then again, perhaps it is our assumption that the 'yes' of the widow, the publican, the centurion (to pick three scriptural images) might appear contingent to us, after all, what do they know of metaphysics and non-duality, but they are not received as contingent to He who hears them — they are yeses from their being.

Compare this to the 'rich young man' (and I read rich in its fullest sense) who could not give up himself to follow Christ, and for whom Christ cried, the man who had crossed every intellectual 't', ticked every metaphysical 'i'... after which the disciples, who had given up everything, realise the reality of the human situation t, and ask, 'what about us?' which leads to the words:
"The things that are impossible with men, are possible with God." (reported in all three Synoptics).

I only bang this drum because the desire of most 'seekers' today is to find a means to short-cut the work ...

The “yes of one’s being” is something else altogether. We get to that special case of “yes” through (or against) our various thought systems.
Depends on who's saying yes ... in the Christian Tradition it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that says yes, because only He knows what He's saying yes to.

And we know, by His saying yes in us ...

... the constant battle of the Christian Tradition is to stop the seeker seeking to possess what he or she seeks — and most of the 'New Age' interpretations of Christianity are precisely that, the quest for some order of extraordinary knowledge or experience — in a materialist / consumer culture, those are the values that are inculcated into the person. To know because we want to know, we love to know ... not to do, without knowing, and without reward.

My pluralist point is that while each of us must choose which system(s) are most appropriate, in the aggregate they form a meta-system of checks & balances, so that no one (reasonably justifiable) system can be absolutely privileged over all the others.
I disagree totally. Sorry, but there it is ... I think that's a construct.

Here you invoke the language of Christian mysticism and faith, which is cool, but I’m not going to tell anyone who doesn’t use this kind of language, or who doesn’t even invoke the idea of faith, that they have no access to the “yes of one’s being”, since from my pov that “yes” and that “being” is everywhere.
OK — But as a Christian the yes I seek is the yes of the Holy Trinity Indwelling ... the cry of Abba! ... which is beyond 'being' and beyond 'everywhere'.

So what of the non-Christian? I don't know, and I can't say ... I hope and pray and believe he or she comes to know Christ, and I hope and believe and pray that Christ makes Himself known in ways I do not know or understand.

But what I do know is the current age's quest is looking for 'it' where it can't be found ... because it never can be found, or possessed, or attained ...

Thomas
 
As I see it, the non-dual reality beyond is inaccessible to us; it comes to us, we cannot get to it ... it is through those contingent yeses that we prepare the ground.

"The things that are impossible with men, are possible with God." (reported in all three Synoptics).

I only bang this drum because the desire of most 'seekers' today is to find a means to short-cut the work ...

... the constant battle of the Christian Tradition is to stop the seeker seeking to possess what he or she seeks — and most of the 'New Age' interpretations of Christianity are precisely that, the quest for some order of extraordinary knowledge or experience — in a materialist / consumer culture, those are the values that are inculcated into the person. To know because we want to know, we love to know ... not to do, without knowing, and without reward.

OK — But as a Christian the yes I seek is the yes of the Holy Trinity Indwelling ... the cry of Abba! ... which is beyond 'being' and beyond 'everywhere'.

But what I do know is the current age's quest is looking for 'it' where it can't be found ... because it never can be found, or possessed, or attained ... Thomas

(I hope you agree!) that we’re mostly in agreement here, following pretty much all traditions: that God (Reality) is by definition unattainable, cannot be produced by anything we do, and so necessitates a total receptivity, stripping down, not-doing, spiritual poverty, nakedness, surrender, letting go, as the various traditions prescribe using various cognate or similar terms - and finally that none of this is easy, there are no shortcuts and that it’s not a question of seeking material rewards or states.

Where we differ – and I hope I can put this in a way you find acceptable – is the way we treat the two levels of assent (the yeses), which here I’ll follow you in calling the “inner yes” and the “conventional yes”. The conventional yes is that assent given to a particular framework, whether characterized as intellectual, ideological, political, social or religious. The inner yes is that letting go, etc. as noted above that takes place within and is mediated by that framework, colored by its vocabulary, symbols, concepts, cultural pre-dispositions, and so on.

It’s simply that for a person of the Catholic (or analogous) faith the two yeses are effectively collapsed into one, while for a pluralist they are quite distinct. For the former the conventional as well as the inner assent are absolute; for the latter, only the inner assent is absolute, while the conventional is relative. (And yes there’s bound to be disagreement on the dividing line between “relative” and “absolute”. Certain aspects of their faith Christians are bound to view as absolute, while non-Christians are bound to see those same aspects as specific only to Christians, or as only relative expressions.)

Anyway, I’m sure you’ll let me know if any of this is too tendentious on my part. Otherwise, I think we’ve arrived at the point in these related threads when it’s time to tip our hats, thank one another for the mutual instruction, and be on our way!

So thanks for your principled opposition. I feel that I’m marginally less of a nimrod than I was before.

Vimalakirti
 
God is the creator of everything,God is spirit of pure energy,like electricity,but posesses limitless intelligence.
 
(I hope you agree!) that we’re mostly in agreement here, following pretty much all traditions: that God (Reality) is by definition unattainable, cannot be produced by anything we do, and so necessitates a total receptivity, stripping down, not-doing, spiritual poverty, nakedness, surrender, letting go, as the various traditions prescribe using various cognate or similar terms - and finally that none of this is easy, there are no shortcuts and that it’s not a question of seeking material rewards or states.
I agree.

Where we differ – and I hope I can put this in a way you find acceptable – is the way we treat the two levels of assent (the yeses), which here I’ll follow you in calling the “inner yes” and the “conventional yes”. The conventional yes is that assent given to a particular framework, whether characterized as intellectual, ideological, political, social or religious. The inner yes is that letting go, etc. as noted above that takes place within and is mediated by that framework, colored by its vocabulary, symbols, concepts, cultural pre-dispositions, and so on.
I agree.

It’s simply that for a person of the Catholic (or analogous) faith the two yeses are effectively collapsed into one, while for a pluralist they are quite distinct. For the former the conventional as well as the inner assent are absolute; for the latter, only the inner assent is absolute, while the conventional is relative. (And yes there’s bound to be disagreement on the dividing line between “relative” and “absolute”. Certain aspects of their faith Christians are bound to view as absolute, while non-Christians are bound to see those same aspects as specific only to Christians, or as only relative expressions.)
I agree.

Anyway, I’m sure you’ll let me know if any of this is too tendentious on my part. Otherwise, I think we’ve arrived at the point in these related threads when it’s time to tip our hats, thank one another for the mutual instruction, and be on our way!
I agree.

So thanks for your principled opposition.
And thank you, likewise.

Thomas
 
Well it was more a contemplative point than a direct question.

But I would suggest that God is not anything we can think of, because God is beyond categorisation.

Good day, Thomas. Nothingness is also beyond categorisation. One cannot say that God exists if he does not define what it is that exists. Any comments about what God is or does is meaningless if it is only based on an unsupported assumption: God exists. That premise is actually its only conclusion. One has to have real premises.

Premise 1. Something real caused the universe.
Premise 2. A primary cause can be called a God.
Conclusion: God is real.

I know that is flawed logic. No. 2 is subjective making the conclusion is illogical.

Premise: 1. God is the word we use for creative mechanism.
Premise: 2. The Creative mechanism is not known to be a personal being, a conscious entity, or a mechanism of physics.
Conclusion: We do not know what God is or if God is personal and conscious.

That was what Thomas was alluding to ... we can certainly say that God is like this or that, based on rational logic, or poetic imagery, but we also know that God is more.

We cannot say for certain what God is or if God is. There is no evidence other than the hearsay of differing prophets who cannot offer proof. If God's evidence is nothing, how can we say that Nothing is more.

Even if one says 'God is Wisdom', 'God is Good', etc., we cannot know the wisdom or goodness of God,

We are then using only imaginative speculation entirely without evidence.

only that if man can be wise, or good, and wise and good seem sensible things to be, then God must be wiser and better than anything we can think of or classify ...

Man could be wise or good. That does not imply that an unknown, invisible, inaudible, immeasurable, intangible creative force need be anything like an evolved bipedal ape with a large brain. We might not exist and our universe might not exist if not for the Higgs Boson. Does that mean this sub-atomic nano particle is wise or good? Are the five vibrating incredibly small energy strings that make up the entire universe, good or wise? A creative force need not be conscious, cognitive, good, nor bad.

or that our experience of God suggests he is wise and good, but that's only our experience,

What experience? All we have is hearsay from eccentric so-called prophets and known schizophrenics that God can communicate with Earth's dominant primate.

that tells us nothing of what God actually is.

We do not even know that God actually IS

The Sun is warm and bright ... but how does the sun perceive itself?

The same way a bucket of sand perceives itself. It is not a rational question.

Amergin
 
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