It's just Jews imposing something on other Jews.
harrumph. the trouble is that these guys are quite happy to impose their views without taking any responsibility for the consequences, or being accountable. this might not seem so bad when it's just ("just"!) weddings, but when it's a matter of who gets a building permit or what institutions public funds get diverted to, it's another matter.
I was curious. Is there a difference between Orthodoxy inside Israel and Orthodoxy outside Israel?
depends what you mean. in israel the ultra-orthodox are very firmly in charge of orthodoxy, although they are increasingly challenged by the "hardalim" - the "national-religious", who are increasingly haredi in outlook but profoundly committed to turning zionism into a religious enterprise, with which goes much of the settlement enterprise as a religious movement. outside of israel it is very much dependent on the country. in the uk, for example the mainstream orthodox tend to look over their right shoulder to the haredim more than they should and kowtow to their credentials rather too much, but they don't run things in any meaningful way. even less so in america, where the orthodox are numerically a minority. there's no one thing called orthodoxy, or even ultra-orthodoxy. it's very determined by whether you're ashkenazi or sephardi, yeshivish or chasidish, litvak or yekke or hungarian or russian or polish or iraqi or yemeni or moroccan or syrian or german, this rebbe or that, this rosh yeshiva or that. it is generally what is referred to as "the narcissism of minor differences". the difference in israel is that orthodox and ultra-orthodox groups are able to get their hands on public services, with extremely mixed results and indeed very worrying results if, say, you are a resident of jerusalem who is not orthodox, for example.
Does the environment in Israel "breed" a "hawkish" attitude? Are people in Israel more hostile because it's "the holy land?"
no, people are more hawkish and hostile because they get stabbed, shot at and blown up more often there. of course, this has now been going on long enough for being hawkish and hostile to be adopted as the default attitude. in other words, it's a lot more complicated.
-- and/or is it like the Bible Belt in America?
only in the mind of the sort of people that think that darwin-spouting scientists are coming to drag their children out of church and get involved with disingenuous abominations like "intelligent design" and "christian zionism".
I used to think Orthodox Judaism was "legalistic," but I've found that it does have some humanistic teachings to balance out what may potentially lead to "legalism."
i'm not trying to be rude here, but "legalistic" is usually a stick used to beat judaism in general, in order to contrast it unfavourably with the oh-so-superior christianity. it's a false dichotomy, like "judaism is about 'law', whereas christianity is about 'love'". it's what i call a "bollocks truism".
Being religious often means being dogmatic.
and being non-religious often means being wishy-washy. of course it often means nothing of the sort - and so it is with religion.
The Hasidic Jews in the "Crown Heights" movie seemed quite "normal" and "human." Actually they seemed pretty cool.
well, this is what i keep saying. in an ideal world, of course all overtly religious people would be living embodiments of the best their belief system brought out in people. unfortunately, it seems equally or, indeed, more likely that a religious background, learning, codes of behaviour and dress does not prevent someone being a total and utter arsehead. you should not be surprised that a hasid turns out to be a good bloke or cool guy, but, equally, you should be surprised if a bloke in a big black hat and beard is a total and utter bastad. and, unfortunately, too often, that ain't so.
Tamar said:
In Israel there is not the diversity of Judaism that you see outside of Israel.
i don't agree with that. it's just that the diversity is rather better hidden because of the tribal costumes. people assume your politics based on your dress and particularly your headgear. there are some really fascinating models of judaism coming out of israel (look at yakar, the pardess or hartman institutes, elijah.org or even, i hate to say it, the enormous success of the "kiruv" movements. there are vastly diverse models of jewish art and culture as well. it really depends what you mean.
Yet there is a diversity of Judaism in the diaspora which is vibrant and growing.
in some places. some people are keen to write off anglo-jewry, for example, despite the fact that it has a thriving jewish music scene and was the birthplace of the limmud platform which has gone global. we still have a few things to teach the world.
In the diaspora any rabbi in any movement can perform marriages, do funerals and burials but in Israel these rabbis cannot.
well, yes, but you are ignoring the historical reasons that this happened, which is that the "progressive" denominations shunned zionism until after the holocaust, by which time they arrived to find that the "national-religious" establishment was closed to them, as the socialist founding fathers of zionism like ben-gurion had happily handed them the key to the banana plantation (in the expectation that religion would not survive in the brave new workers' paradise they were building) - it was willing to accommodate the ultra-orthodox, of course, but not the reform, liberal and conservative movements. that still has not changed, unfortunately.
Saltmeister said:
....... it's because I live in a liberal Western culture where "fornication," and "sex outside/before marriage" isn't considered an abomination. They probably don't tolerate that kind of lifestyle in Israel.
look, the orthodox establishment don't tolerate that anywhere, but they are not in a position to enforce their attitudes except where the general populace demand their imprimatur on a conversion or marriage. i had an orthodox wedding, but as long as we gave the bride's address as her parents nobody made any problems. you just have to understand what the system will cope with and what won't. as it is, all the above "liberal western" cultural behaviours are very much visible in israel - both heterosexual and homosexual!
What about converting to Orthodox Judaism. Is that an option?
if you're crazy enough to want to convert, it's certainly possible. however, it's a minefield.
Tamar said:
Government needs to always be separate from religion in my opinion.
i would say that both government and religion certainly ought to keep their noses out of peoples' bedrooms if they haven't been invited.
b'shalom
bananabrain
