Self Mortification

[enlightenment]

Surely this can only be the manifestation of a mental illness, no matter who or how many engage in it?

No rational person can give any reasonable merit to this action, esp in the extreme form.

Mortification of the flesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Enlightenment,

Is this something you are suffering from?

Self mortification (cutting, etc.) is merely anger towards another person that is turned inward, instead of expressing the anger directly at the other person. The trick is to learn to express the anger outwardly not inwardly.

 

[Thomas]

Surely this can only be the manifestation of a mental illness, no matter who or how many engage in it?

Well 'this' is a broad term. Asceticism has always been regarded as a virtue in every culture, but within that, there are always those who take things to an extreme.

However, there is every good reason to practice asceticism, but not a form that regards the physical body as, somehow, the 'enemy'.

I disagree with Nick's view, however ... all the evidence points to such conditions being the result of a negative body image, not anger at another turned inward, but disgust at the self, conditioned by society.

The reasoning depends on the context — but the tendency is highlighted in many religious traditions — the fakirs of the Asiatic continent seem still today to be engaged in pointless exercises in self-mortification, and in my own tradition we have a 'rich' eek:) heritage, from the stylites in the Greek East, to the flagellant monks in the Medieval era (and still, in stylised form, today) ...

In the 'modern west' this practice has moved into the cultural context, and the negative body image that underpins a whole raft of disorders (anorexia nervosa, self-harming, etc.,) has taken a grip greater than any religious expression before it. The number of young, both men and women, who suffer is significant, and increasing ... whilst many blame the media for their presentation of the ideal, the gym-fit guy and the stick-thin girl, the problem is in fact rooted deeper than that.

In my view, not until we recover an authentic sense of nature and the natural as being 'good' (as the Bible, for example, stresses many times), then we will continue to suffer these and other new and equally damaging expressions of negative body image.

As an aside, when casting 'Band of Brothers', the majority of extras were English because the crew could not find enough American actors that looked authentic — too many work out and have sculpted bodies that were unimagined in the 1940s! So they came looking for scrawny Brits!

God bless,

Thomas

 

[enlightenment]

Enlightenment,

Is this something you are suffering from?

Self mortification (cutting, etc.) is merely anger towards another person that is turned inward, instead of expressing the anger directly at the other person. The trick is to learn to express the anger outwardly not inwardly.

Patently not, Nick, esp since I condemened it in my OP.

I don't subscribe to any religion, let alone harming myself in the name of some twisted religous practice.

There is little difference imo, between a self harmer, and someone who engages in this type of thing for so called 'spirituall' reasons...

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

self harm is common, smoking alchohol and drug abuse over eating etc.

self hatred is also very common anti western liberalism is a symptom of this from westerners anyway.

 

[enlightenment]

self harm is common, smoking alchohol and drug abuse over eating etc.

self hatred is also very common anti western liberalism is a symptom of this from westerners anyway.

We all know this.

Self harming is not a mental illness in itself, I understand.

However, it is symptomatic of a large underlying emotional problem, in almost all studied cases.

In respect of Catholic's and those that partake in this out of some twisted religous ideal the same applies - they are patently neurotic and obsessive, not to mention deluded, and their self mortification is merely a manifestation of their mental state.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

In respect of Catholic's and those that partake in this out of some twisted religous ideal the same applies - they are patently neurotic and obsessive, not to mention deluded, and their self mortification is merely a manifestation of their mental state.

how very judgemental of you

 

[enlightenment]

how very judgemental of you

How would you prefer to see it..?

 

[vizenos]

Surely this can only be the manifestation of a mental illness, no matter who or how many engage in it?

No rational person can give any reasonable merit to this action, esp in the extreme form.

Well, so long as you define "rational person" to exclude anyone who disagrees with you on this, you are certainly correct.

However, IMO, this ignores two basic premises: Imprimis, most people are non-rational most of the time; and secundus, many things which can generally be seen as non-rational may in fact be entirely rational, given one or more particular sets of belief and experience.

While I would certainly agree that, from your own perspective, mortification of the flesh would be a non-rational activity--for you--you lack the authority to proclaim that it is a non-rational activity--for anyone other than yourself.

Let me take myself for an example. Not only do I abstain from many foods which I used to enjoy, but also I stick needles in my body at least twice a day. That's really sick, right? No, in my case it is rational, because I am an insulin-dependent diabetic following the treatment plan prescribed by my primary care physician.

Get the point?

Regards,
vizenos

 

[enlightenment]

While I would certainly agree that, from your own perspective, mortification of the flesh would be a non-rational activity--for you--you lack the authority to proclaim that it is a non-rational activity--for anyone other than yourself.

Yes.

And the entire psychiatric profession would see self harming using objects, as a sign of mental illness, and recommend that the patient receive some form of treatment, to aid them. It would not be seen as something to be respected or revered, but for what it would be - a sickness.

I am quite sure that using your measure, there are child sex offenders, who, by their rationale are behaving in an entirely normal manner...to them.

It would perhaps be non rational to you.

And this too would be seen as something that the psychiatric profession would rightfully retain an interest in.

You see the pattern here, I am sure...

 

[vizenos]

Yes.

And the entire psychiatric profession would see self harming using objects, as a sign of mental illness, and recommend that the patient receive some form of treatment, to aid them. It would not be seen as something to be respected or revered, but for what it would be - a sickness.

I am quite sure that using your measure, there are child sex offenders, who, by their rationale are behaving in an entirely normal manner...to them.

It would perhaps be non rational to you.

And that's a wildly inappropriate analogy, since child abusers of whatever sort are criminals, and are harming others at least as much, if not far more, than they are harming themselves. Moreover, from those case studies I've seen, such people are almost always fully aware that their actions are compulsive rather than rational; they simply find it difficult if not impossible to resist those compulsions.

And this too would be seen as something that the psychiatric profession would rightfully retain an interest in.

You see the pattern here, I am sure...

I do, indeed, and it's a pattern of oversimplification at best. Having worked as a psychiatric education technician in a teaching hospital, I know that any competent psychiatrist would view "mortification of the flesh" as a strong indication that a psychiatric evaluation should be done, immediately, to determine if the subject is or could be a danger to self or others. Any further conclusions would normally need to await the results of that evaluation.

Regards,
vizenos

 

[enlightenment]

worked as a psychiatric education technician in a teaching hospital, I know that any competent psychiatrist would view "mortification of the flesh" as a strong indication that a psychiatric evaluation should be done, immediately, to determine if the subject is or could be a danger to self or others. Any further conclusions would normally need to await the results of that evaluation.

Regards,
vizenos

Seems we concur.

The basic premise to what I was saying is, in essence, precisely what you have stated here - that self mortification of the flesh should raise a red flag to any competent psychiatrist, and, on that basis, they should receive proper care and attention....medically.

 

[greymare]

Enlightenment, just so I am clear.......... are you talking about specifically catholics, or catholics that do this, or are you talking about anyone who does this?
Just wondering, is all.

 

[wil]

As I see it some people use various methods for what they consider self improvement.

Fasting for example...would that fit into the categories you are speaking of?

How about the body builder, breaking down muscles to increase them?

And those that like to hang from hooks where do they fit in?

Or those that pierce their cheeks during Hindi ceremonies.

Or simply pierce their ears...where is this line?

My brain goes thru pain occasionally when I read this forum....

 

[enlightenment]

Enlightenment, just so I am clear.......... are you talking about specifically catholics, or catholics that do this, or are you talking about anyone who does this?
Just wondering, is all.

Hi,

Happy to clarify.

Anyone who self harms does, by definition, require the best psychiatric treatment that they can secure, no matter if their reason happens to be a dysfunctional childhood or some messed up notion that by doing this, it somehow brings them 'closer to god'.

 

[enlightenment]

As I see it some people use various methods for what they consider self improvement.

Fasting for example...would that fit into the categories you are speaking of?

How about the body builder, breaking down muscles to increase them?

And those that like to hang from hooks where do they fit in?

Or those that pierce their cheeks during Hindi ceremonies.

Or simply pierce their ears...where is this line?

My brain goes thru pain occasionally when I read this forum....

Someone having their ears pierced is not a valid comparison, Wil.

The cheek impaling is a better comparison, and, if people are prepared to step back and look at it, what conclusion can they fairly draw, other than to determine that it is a shocking action, carried out by superstitous people, based on some primative notion which has no basis in fact.

 

[vizenos]

Seems we concur.

To some extent, yes, but see below:

The basic premise to what I was saying is, in essence, precisely what you have stated here - that self mortification of the flesh should raise a red flag to any competent psychiatrist, and, on that basis, they should receive proper care and attention....medically.

No, what I am stating above is that a psychiatric evaluation should be done, unless the psychiatrist or his/her clinical supervisor decides that it is not appropriate because the "self mortification" is clearly within the range of mainstream practices such as fasting, prescribed medical treatment plan, etc.

In the event a psychiatric evaluation is done, any decision with regard to appropriate psychiatric intervention would of course depend entirely upon the results of the psychiatric evaluation and the psychiatrist's case workup, which of course would be subject to review and, if appropriate, correction by the psychiatrist's clinical supervisor since, as you no doubt are aware, the usual house staff of an outpatient psychiatry clinic is composed of PGY III and PGY IV psychiatry residents, whose work is subject to clinical supervision.

The concerns raised by Greymare and Wil are entirely valid. Psychiatry deals with individual patients, not broad categories, and does so with a multi-paradigm approach in which the therapeutic paradigm is selected to fit the patient, rather than forcing the patient, in Procrustean fashion, to fit some single paradigm. Your statement, as quoted above, does not appear to adequately take this into account.

Regards,
vizenos

 

[vizenos]

Someone having their ears pierced is not a valid comparison, Wil.

The cheek impaling is a better comparison, and, if people are prepared to step back and look at it, what conclusion can they fairly draw, other than to determine that it is a shocking action, carried out by superstitous people, based on some primative notion which has no basis in fact.

And if any outpatient psychiatry resident were to evaluate a patient on that basis and attempt to proceed on that basis, the outcome for that resident would be both immediate and severe, and would range from, at the very least, a failing evaluation for his outpatient psychiatry rotation to, quite possibly, a quick visit to the chief of the department of psychiatry, followed by his immediate expulsion from his psychiatry residency training program.

Regards,
vizenos

 

[wil]

Someone having their ears pierced is not a valid comparison, Wil.

The cheek impaling is a better comparison, and, if people are prepared to step back and look at it, what conclusion can they fairly draw, other than to determine that it is a shocking action, carried out by superstitous people, based on some primative notion which has no basis in fact.

again, plenty of folks got cheeks, tongues, eyebrows, hoods, nipples, lips pierced....

what is the line... pain for pain sake ok? but for religion is wrong?

 

[enlightenment]

To some extent, yes, but see below:



No, what I am stating above is that a psychiatric evaluation should be done, unless the psychiatrist or his/her clinical supervisor decides that it is not appropriate because the "self mortification" is clearly within the range of mainstream practices such as fasting, prescribed medical treatment plan, etc.

In the event a psychiatric evaluation is done, any decision with regard to appropriate psychiatric intervention would of course depend entirely upon the results of the psychiatric evaluation and the psychiatrist's case workup, which of course would be subject to review and, if appropriate, correction by the psychiatrist's clinical supervisor since, as you no doubt are aware, the usual house staff of an outpatient psychiatry clinic is composed of PGY III and PGY IV psychiatry residents, whose work is subject to clinical supervision.

The concerns raised by Greymare and Wil are entirely valid. Psychiatry deals with individual patients, not broad categories, and does so with a multi-paradigm approach in which the therapeutic paradigm is selected to fit the patient, rather than forcing the patient, in Procrustean fashion, to fit some single paradigm. Your statement, as quoted above, does not appear to adequately take this into account.

Regards,
vizenos

It doesn't matter if one dresses self harm up in the robes of religion. It remains illogical, dangerous, and utterly counter productive.

Look, if a fella came to you tommorow, and said that he believed in the Flying Pink Unicorn, and as part of his belief, he liked to take his penis, and slam it shut in a door, let's be honest here, you would think that he was insane, and you would be right to think that, it would be fair enough.

If you are trying to sell me the idea that you would look at his penis slamming on it's merits, and not consider him unstable, then I suggest you are not being entirely straight with me.

And it is the same with any such thing, whether it be the man with the penis slamming, in the name of the Flying Pink Unicorn, or a priest whipping the skin from his back, because he felt that this would somehow heighten his spiritual connection to another Cosmic Being.

There is one thing more heinous that this, while on the subject - inflicting needless pain and suffering on another in the name of 'tradition' of the Flying Pink Unicorn et all.

Again, I am quite sure that were a man to come to you and say that in the name of the FPU, he had paid to have his baby son's right ear lobe removed at birth, you would be disgusted, and call for his prosecution.

And yet, every day, baby boys and girls have their genitals mutilated, all in the name of a cosmic entity, like the FPU.

Unethical, cruel, and wrong.