Self Mortification

[enlightenment]

again, plenty of folks got cheeks, tongues, eyebrows, hoods, nipples, lips pierced....

what is the line... pain for pain sake ok? but for religion is wrong?

See, generally, those people who get an ear pierced, they are not doing it based on a delusion that the action will bring them closer to god.

You do know what the actual definition of a delusion is, I assume.

'A delusion is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. In psychiatry, it is defined to be a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process) and is held despite evidence to the contrary. '

A fixed and false belief that is held, despite evidence to the contrary.

Kinda a cap that fits the religous delusion of believing that causing yourself either mental or physical torment will somehow bring approval by your divine being of choice (insert name of it..).

 

[wil]

See, generally, those people who get an ear pierced, they are not doing it based on a delusion that the action will bring them closer to god.

You do know what the actual definition of a delusion is, I assume.

'A delusion is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. In psychiatry, it is defined to be a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process) and is held despite evidence to the contrary. '

A fixed and false belief that is held, despite evidence to the contrary.

Kinda a cap that fits the religous delusion of believing that causing yourself either mental or physical torment will somehow bring approval by your divine being of choice (insert name of it..).

Nice footwork. How many divine beings are requesting folks to beat themselves for approval? v how many folks are using pain to produce endorphins and a state which allows them to transcend the material?

didja answer the fasting question?

Do ya do anything to test your metal?

 

[enlightenment]

Nice footwork. How many divine beings are requesting folks to beat themselves for approval? v how many folks are using pain to produce endorphins and a state which allows them to transcend the material?

didja answer the fasting question?

Do ya do anything to test your metal?

If someone wants to fast, let them fast. Will it bring them closer to their divine cosmic being of choice? No. It will merely make them a little hungry, and perhaps a little thirsty. As long as their little indulgence is done in their own time, and does not impact on say (for example), their work time, they can fast(and pray) all day, for all that I care.

Again, this is a far cry from engaging in acts of sickening violence against one's self, inspired by some deluded idea that this is what your divine cosmic being would wish you to do.

I am not sure what you mean when you ask me 'Do ya do anything to test your metal'?

I am content with striving to be a good dad, a good son, a good grand father, and a good friend.

That can be pretty testing at times, but also rewarding.

There is definite evidence of it bringing me closer....to real people, not invisible beings.

 

[wil]

If someone wants to fast, let them fast. Will it bring them closer to their divine cosmic being of choice? No. It will merely make them a little hungry, and perhaps a little thirsty. As long as their little indulgence is done in their own time, and does not impact on say (for example), their work time, they can fast(and pray) all day, for all that I care.

Again, this is a far cry from engaging in acts of sickening violence against one's self, inspired by some deluded idea that this is what your divine cosmic being would wish you to do.

I am not sure what you mean when you ask me 'Do ya do anything to test your metal'?

I am content with striving to be a good dad, a good son, a good grand father, and a good friend.

That can be pretty testing at times, but also rewarding.

There is definite evidence of it bringing me closer....to real people, not invisible beings.

Whatever floats your boat...

Again, hopefully someday you will develop a live and let live attitude....and not get into your grandchildrens lives when they tell you they have found a religion that they find comfort in.

 

[enlightenment]

Whatever floats your boat...

Again, hopefully someday you will develop a live and let live attitude....and not get into your grandchildrens lives when they tell you they have found a religion that they find comfort in.

I do have a live and let live outlook, so long as whatever a person is doing is not a violation on the rights of another.

If someone wishes to believe in Zeus or the Flying Pink Unicorn, then I am good with that.

If that same person lobbys to have the FPU on the school curriculum, I might have an issue with that.

If those that believed in the FPU were given a range of rights that set them aside from others, I might have an issue with that.

If those with an End Of Days, FPU fixation, began seeping into politics, I might not feel that a very good mix.

I would imagine, given trends in the UK, that my grand daughter will have no special need to feel drawn to a religion. There will not be the usual (and most common) family indoctrination, that is for one thing. And she will always be encouraged to be wary of fantastic claims that have no evidence or supporting proof. I hope that she will be further encouraged to always think rationally and scientifically, rather than making the error of filling a gap in knowledge with a super natural story to fit.

It's not that I have anything against religion per se, just as I have nothing against those that have claimed ghosts to be the spirit of the dead, or those that claim they have seen alien beings, even been to their planet.

But as with religous claims, the one thing that seems to unite these out of the box claims, whether they are made 2000 yrs ago or now, is that they always lack evidence, and they always lack proof.

Funny that, dontcha think..?

 

[Sam Albion]

Surely this can only be the manifestation of a mental illness, no matter who or how many engage in it?

No rational person can give any reasonable merit to this action, esp in the extreme form.

--Well, kiddo, that's where you're wrong.

Mortification, in the simplest sense, just means to deny the body. Fasting is a less severe form of mortification, so too covering yourself with ashes, but both are mortification practises that feature in hinduism and catholicism, as well as many other religions.

Self-flagellation, the whipping, the use of scourge, or cillice, the sticking of the Siva spears through your ears, to you, looks like pain, but any extreme state, be it induced by sleep deprivation, hallucinogenic drugs, intense prayer, fear or fornication, is considered to be able to help a person come closer to God/to transcend their physical state.

Perhaps this "closeness via self-violence" is... a fake, the result of hormonal, biological processes, but... to some, and to those like me, it doesn't matter how "true" the state is, or how "right" it appears to others, just that the state occurs. For some people, pain works.

 

[enlightenment]

Self-flagellation, the whipping, the use of scourge, or cillice, the sticking of the Siva spears through your ears, to you, looks like pain, but any extreme state, be it induced by sleep deprivation, hallucinogenic drugs, intense prayer, fear or fornication, is considered to be able to help a person come closer to God/to transcend their physical state.

Perhaps this "closeness via self-violence" is... a fake.

Like I say, anyone engaging in such actions would perhaps benefit from being checked out, in the head, imo.

No rational person could defend these actions, it would take an irrational arguement to explain it away, since a rational arguement cannot.

But you know what, it is like I say, these delusionals can beat themselves to death if they like, but when they mutilate the genitals of babies in the name of their chosen cosmic leader, then I object to that on humanitarian grounds.

 

[Sam Albion]

The rationale is evident; self-mortification in a religious context is... considered acceptable, and not a manifestation of mental illness. It is not a ... maladaptive coping strategy, it does not interfere with an individuals day-to-day functioning, it does not permeate an individuals entire life to the exclusion of all other things.

 

[greymare]

I've been thinking about this......
first we would have to look at whether it is self harm. and what is self harm?
As was pointed out earlier, could one label smoking drinking alcohol pierciengs, tattoos etc as self harm. Or does this only come under this banner if it was "inflicted" because of a belief in God?

Personally, the flogging oneself doesnt do it for me. I dont like pain, so therefore would not partake in this. But as to the state of mind of these individuals, I dont really know. I mean, that they are doing it to themselves, for whatever reasons, its not like they are going around beating random people.
Its not like someone who is depressed attempting suicide. (that , I would try to intervene).
If I had a tatoo of Christ...... would I come under this banner?

Just wondering

 

[enlightenment]

The rationale is evident; self-mortification in a religious context is... considered acceptable, and not a manifestation of mental illness. It is not a ... maladaptive coping strategy, it does not interfere with an individuals day-to-day functioning, it does not permeate an individuals entire life to the exclusion of all other things.

Key words there, Sam, imo.

Of course self mortification in a religous context is seen as acceptable.

That is my entire point. In almost any other context, it would be seen as dysfunctional behaviour, and the person would be treated as a mental health patient, yet if that same behaviour is dressed behind the robes of religion, it is out of reach of the psychiatric profession, by virtue of the fact that sheer weight of numbers makes it so.

It is the same with causing needless pain and suffering to a defenceless baby, mutilating it's genitals, because in a 'religous context', it is deemed acceptable. Well, there is such a thing as common decency and humanity, and they transcend all imo. There are no circumstances in which it should be right for a human adult to mutilate the genitals of their babies, indeed, were I to tell you that I believed in Goblinsim, and one of the rights of passage was to remove the lobe from my baby boy/girl, you would deem to quite insane, and possibly insist that the baby is taken out of my care.

There is no difference between Goblinism and the lobe, and Islam/Judaism and genital mutilation, save for their weight of numbers.

 

[greymare]

eh? are you talking about circumcision?

 

[enlightenment]

eh? are you talking about circumcision?

Yes. Male and female genital mutilation, on the grounds that the parents have some sort of religous beleif, rather than a medical must.

As I say, were my Goblinism to dictate the removal of the earlobe of a baby, people would be calling me insane, my religion evil, and wishing to remove the baby from my care.

Yes?

 

[greymare]

Dunno.!!!!!!!

 

[enlightenment]

Dunno.!!!!!!!

Really?

Are you saying you may even support the right of Goblinists to have the ear lobe of a baby removed, as a homage to their Cosmic Goblin?

You wouldn't see me as being insane, and the child as merely a victim of something v fecked up?

 

[greymare]

Seems to me you are just trying to pick a fight! I said Dunno, cos, I dont have an opinion on it either way. I am sorry for you if that doesnt appeal to you. I dont support genital circumcision of girls, probably cos I am one. I am undecided on the subject for boys. sexist? perhaps. I dont really know, so I am not going to enter into a circumsicion debate when i do not have the knowledge to do so. Sorry, for you if that dissappoints.

 

[enlightenment]

Seems to me you are just trying to pick a fight! I said Dunno, cos, I dont have an opinion on it either way. I am sorry for you if that doesnt appeal to you. I dont support genital circumcision of girls, probably cos I am one. I am undecided on the subject for boys. sexist? perhaps. I dont really know, so I am not going to enter into a circumsicion debate when i do not have the knowledge to do so. Sorry, for you if that dissappoints.

Okay then.

Next....