Christadelphianism

EJK, I can see you're going to draw me out by not responding and talking like you know something about Christadelphians. Thing is, you don't know all that much about them. I was a lifelong charismatic, who then became a Baptist; but still I was not happy with my understanding of the gospel. I prayed for a better understanding and I got it when I found a copy of Christendom Astray, written by Robert Roberts who was equally influential with John Thomas among the Christadelphians. (Also Jay-Jay Armstrong) Christadelphians are actually not a 'John Thomas' sect but were put together from a rag-tag group of Bible students left over from various early Baptist type groups who believed in freedom of belief. These were true conscientious objectors cruelly labeled unpatriotic by their fellow Americans and banded together, so that they could obtain permission from the government not to fight. Nevertheless some people do claim they are John Thomas sect, though this is not at all true. He would be honored, by the way, to know that in England his name is synonymous with the word 'Cock'. "You can suck my John Thomas." After all its only fitting, since Jesus his Lord taught that "Anything spoken against the son of man shall be forgiven." John Thomas would of thought of it as being crucified upside down, so it would kind of cool to him.

I'm not a Christadelphian by any stretch of the imagination, although for a time I did study with them, passed their miniature Bet-din-thingy. They were like a waypoint on my way to wherever it is I'm going, like a well of water for a thirsty man. It is too bad that I could not repay them for kindness to a man who could never offer them anything while he was with them. These people took me in, an unfriendly, difficult man. They tried to be like family to me, and they are really nice people. I had to leave, because I came to understand that communion has to be open. If you'd like, then I will be happy to show you how 'God manifestation' is in the Bible. I won't suggest that you belong with Christadelphians, but I will suggest that all believers belong together, trinity or not, annihilation-ism or not. That is the best God-manifestation that Christians could ever hope to attain.
 
By no means I wanted to offend you or anyone else, however all I wanted to point out short comings of CD's. I have also studied with CD's and attended some of their lectures, but I have found out that really I did not fit in because I did not fully followed their teachings. I was a catholic and had problems following that for many years, now I call myself a christian still lean towards that God,Christ and Holy Spirit is one. And I must say you can have unending debates on this so I will not go there. Trying to guess the Christ second coming as CD's love doing is futale, He said " I will come like a thief in the night, no date no time" what do I believe, be ready because it may be tomorrow, but I will never say ,because this is happening in the middle east they are the signs, some popes claimed that they were infallible, I am sure CD's did not believe that' neither did I. When CD's say they" alone have the truth" that is when I have an issue with. One stage catholocism claimed also that if you were not a catholic you will not get a salvation, but that tune has changed. I became of protestant belief, I attend lutheran church for sunday service, but I could have gone to united church,baptist or church of Christ for that matter. All those pastors\ministers hold meetings together, but you cannot bring CD's into it, they see all christians as "unbelievers". Yes how nice would be that we all could get along and understand one another, but surely you see how CD's hold the view that they are correct, I do not know if I can get my point across. Look, most CD's were kind to me too.but I also faced the dogmatic ones. And even some said that they would leave the sect if was not for their family. Do you believe that the idiots and unbaptised children will perish ??? No where in the bible Christ said that, but they preach that, when I question them on this, some said " we don't know" it is up to God. If so why say that. I know that JW also tried to predict the end time "Christ return" but I think CD's did more and Andy Walton is still harping about Syria, that Russia will invade them first then Israel. When I visited Israel I spoke with a Jew about this, he agreed about armageddon but said that they will be at war with arabs and not Russians. All I tried to say that CD's are also not perfect like the rest of christianity.
 
Yes, one or two told me that they "Have the truth." Not everybody believed that. Most believed that they had something good but that they could be a tiny bit wrong. Yes some people stay for their family I think, but where I visited I did not sense control. I believe it would depend upon who the elected leaders happened to be, how many 'Main families' there were and what particular city and state. Its a big country and all the groups were separated for a long time and become estranged from each other. California, Arkansas and Florida are very different places. The same thing happened to all the older denominations since the USA is so sprawled out and sparsely populated. On a weirdness scale from 1 to 10, some CD's are an 8 but some are a 2. I'm probably a 7, and my guess is you're somewhere between a 2 and a 5. Nobody is a 1, except maybe Dolly Parton. She could fit in anywhere I'd bet. You think she might be a Mormon?
 
For information on whether or not Christadelphianism is a "cult," enter the words "Christadelphian Cult" in your search engine, and then carefully follow along the internet trails that present themselves to you. Digest the information carefully, and then come to your own conclusions. In my own decades long experience, Christadelphianism definitely fits some of the definitions for being a cult. Also, while it takes time to evolve away from the group, eventually a large majority of defectors do so successfully. It is often not an easy or pretty process, but that reality should also send you some messages about the group.

Note that they invariably -- like all faiths -- put lots of lipstick on the pig, to make it attractive. In reality, there is a high emphasis on conformity, control, observance, obedience, etc. They will pretend otherwise, at least initially. They are lying. Punishments for transgressions can be draconian and subjective. Sexism and homophobia and other "isms" often rear their ugly heads. There is an excuse for every institutional flaw, and an explanation for every inconsistency. You know the drill. The inconsistencies in Scripture itself are loyally glossed over. Some members and groups drift into weirdness and dogmatism. Cross certain lines of demarcation, and incisor teeth become visible. Thousands of Sundays are spent in homes or tiny meeting houses, droning about the hidden meanings of texts, or about Christadelphian perceptions of their angry and judgmental and highly selective God. Note that you can devote your life to this tiny faith, and still have, by their teachings, only a very small chance of "redemption," because you may nonetheless be found unworthy on Judgement Day. How much better, to take one's seventy or ninety years, and to live them unencumbered by time spent in such a prison, one which, in hindsight, I can see was based on glaring inconsistencies, superstition and mysticism.

There are good people in this group. I don't deny that, but they're not enough to salvage its failings. Live the life you've been given. Live it in the real world, as a free man or woman, understanding that all things are mortal. This is a form of salvation also.
 
In response to the notion that we are "always a member of a group like the Christadelphians, and always owned by it." ...... Yes and no. We each carry our history with us. But that history doesn't have to own us. They still "owned" me for ten or fifteen years after I left their religion. They were still in my head. But they don't own me now, and will never "own" me again. Like all mistakes or unhappy occurrences in our lives, we can build on the experiences we had and salvage something good from them. It doesn't mean that we must remain trapped somewhere, especially when we have consciously left a group.
 
Let me clarify one thing further. In order not to be "owned" by this group for the rest of my lifetime (or, rather, to keep them out of my head), I had to lose all of my family members and my closest friends. But that is an indictment of this little cult, not of me.

I had to shut them all out of my life the same way one would bar one's door against a crowd of insane people.

They were incapable of any critical thinking when it came to their dogma. They were incapable of tolerating anyone who stepped out of line. They were brutal in some of their collective dealings. To place factual and logical arguments before them meant absolutely NOTHING. To press back against any of these things was to become "the other," "the outsider," a gently or roughly handled pariah.

To embrace all of this nonsense was to be safe in a boring, stale, stunting environment, one burdened by rote and members who showed you great attention in order to get you into the group, and then cold-shouldered you later when you found yourself at the bottom of their pecking order.

One Sunday I was sitting, listening to their buzzing and flatulating and two thoughts occurred to me with finality: "This is a living Death. I must find a way to escape this and live my life."
 
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Dream said:
EJK, I can see you're going to draw me out by not responding and talking like you know something about Christadelphians. Thing is, you don't know all that much about them. I was a lifelong charismatic, who then became a Baptist; but still I was not happy with my understanding of the gospel. I prayed for a better understanding and I got it when I found a copy of Christendom Astray, written by Robert Roberts who was equally influential with John Thomas among the Christadelphians. (Also Jay-Jay Armstrong) Christadelphians are actually not a 'John Thomas' sect but were put together from a rag-tag group of Bible students left over from various early Baptist type groups who believed in freedom of belief. These were true conscientious objectors cruelly labeled unpatriotic by their fellow Americans and banded together, so that they could obtain permission from the government not to fight. Nevertheless some people do claim they are John Thomas sect, though this is not at all true. He would be honored, by the way, to know that in England his name is synonymous with the word 'Cock'. "You can suck my John Thomas." After all its only fitting, since Jesus his Lord taught that "Anything spoken against the son of man shall be forgiven." John Thomas would of thought of it as being crucified upside down, so it would kind of cool to him.

I'm not a Christadelphian by any stretch of the imagination, although for a time I did study with them, passed their miniature Bet-din-thingy. They were like a waypoint on my way to wherever it is I'm going, like a well of water for a thirsty man. It is too bad that I could not repay them for kindness to a man who could never offer them anything while he was with them. These people took me in, an unfriendly, difficult man. They tried to be like family to me, and they are really nice people. I had to leave, because I came to understand that communion has to be open. If you'd like, then I will be happy to show you how 'God manifestation' is in the Bible. I won't suggest that you belong with Christadelphians, but I will suggest that all believers belong together, trinity or not, annihilation-ism or not. That is the best God-manifestation that Christians could ever hope to attain.
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Dream, they were showing you lots of attention and kindness to get you into the fold. After you're in, all of that usually dissipates. Yes, there are good people in Christadelphianism. I met some. There are also more than an ordinary sect's share of destructive and malevolent people, in my experience.

And you are correct about communion. If communion is to be had, it should not require an extensive vetting process, as required by Christadelphianism. Remember that their perception of God is that of a punitive, strict, and excluding God. He's a somafabitch with a bat in his hand. No wonder that some of them try to emulate their idol.
 
I occasionally attend a large local church, but it is primarily to avail myself of cultural and social events there. I would not describe myself as an atheist, but instead as being somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic. I think it unlikely there is any God, but I haven't ruled it out completely. I will not, however, invest my life in religious activities as thoroughly as billions of humans do, because I think the existence of God is unlikely, making such an investment a massive waste of the limited time that we get on this planet. Think of how much better that time could be spent working, fixing human problems, or just living.
 
Gatekeeper said:
I've been attending Christadelphian meetings since early childhood. They are my family, and although I do not prescribe to all their beliefs, I still go to the meetings now and then. At one time I gave the exhortations on Sundays to our Ecclesia, which would be considered a sermon in most Christian churches. I am quite familiar with their doctrine and as Dream suggested, I owe them for at least being such a monumental part of my personal journey.

I love them for the kind, gentle people they are. Even so, there are some who can be extremely judgmental, even refusing to take emblems (Communion) with some members. I've seen many a man excommunicated for their life choices, so they are indeed a no nonsense group.

The Ecclesia I sometimes attend are always asking me to speak on Sundays, but I decline knowing my heart just cannot teach something contrary to what I believe, and I would not dare disrespect one of them by teaching something contrary to what they believe.

They study the scriptures like its nobodies business, and they (Most) are in fact extremely well versed in biblical literature. They were founded by a gentleman by the name of John Thomas. He's written several books, but I've yet to read a single one. All in all they are isolated, but they welcome strangers, only they will not take the emblems with someone who has not been baptized into the church.

I've actually had the opportunity to perform two baptisms when heavily involved in their activities. This was truly a blessing for me at the time, and even still today. They are very big supporters of Israel as a nation, and many Ecclesias send money to displaced Jews, so they might be able to return to their homeland.

Great group of people, and although I have strayed from many of their beliefs, I will never forget the love and compassion they have shown me since I was just a wee child. They are family, and they will always be family no matter where I find myself on my journey.
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If you have been performing baptisms, you are hardly an unbiased party. "Love and compassion," according to you, characterizes this group, along with your somewhat contradictory expression that they can be described as a "no nonsense group." "Love and compassion" were not what I encountered in Christadelphianism; they court you to get you into their midst, like most churches, then ignore many of their initiates once they're inside. The same pecking orders exist in their congregations as the ones found outside. I had relatives in the church I attended; it occurred to none of them to include me in their lives. So imagine what some strangers encounter? These churches become wastelands where the members remain trapped, unable to live healthy and functional lives on the inside, and unable to leave because to leave is to receive eternal damnation.
 
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Tryne Luciano said:
..These churches become wastelands where the members remain trapped, unable to live healthy and functional lives on the inside, and unable to leave because to leave is to receive eternal damnation.
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You are just describing mankind's weaknesses.
The same sort of thing can happen in ANY congregation.

Faith is not about what others might think.
It is about your relationship with the Creator of the Universe.
 
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The difference is that in insular sects and cults, like the Christadelphians, the members often fail to be socialized to an extent where they can survive competently on the outside if they leave the group. This is in some ways, consciously or unconsciously, intentional, and thus unfortunate and even damnable.

I would also suggest to you that human life and the human journey can be meaningful and beautiful without presupposing that it cannot be so without the presence of a divine supernatural being (God). Your life can have whatever meaning and purpose you give to it, without constant supposed dependence on invisible deities in the clouds. If I had found Christian and/or Christadelphian doctrines to be sound and without glaring inconsistencies -- no human foolishness would have driven me from their midst. Instead, I find the blind belief of many adherents to organized religion to be illogical and without basis.
 
Illogicality is an inescapable reality of humankind as are our numerous weaknesses.

Acknowledging & accepting these things is not a denial of the meaningfulness of the life journey itself.

It is obvious - to me - that freedom & happiness are experienced in this worldly life by human beings in seemingly endless ways.
 
Do we want to find context for happiness and freedom and meaning (all of which are subjective things by their very nature) without examining the validity or rationality of the venues where they are achieved? Of course not. I am not going to sit in a service of the Scientologists and not question the religion/venue itself. And sitting there without some questioning can ultimately be injurious to my health.
 
Everything should be queationed imo, including the blanket rejection & condemnation of organized religion and the ignoring of any deeds or qualities produced by organized religion.

Absolute reliance upon logic & reason while dismissing & devaluing emotion & intuition might work well for Vulcans, but I believe it can be detrimental for us in a similar way that "blind faith" can be imo.
 
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An articulate response. Emotion and intuition have their place and their value, I would agree. But if that's all you've got, I suspect you're in deep trouble indeed. Religion involves a great deal of intuition, blind faith, and subjectivity. Those qualities involve some maneuvering in the dark, rather than the light of day and reason. If that's where you need to go to find your meaning and happiness, go to it. I think I'd rather live on a plane where my perceptions are guided by my five senses and my logic. You're entitled to see the world through whatever prism you like; my sight won't be clouded by caveman superstitions and mysticism. Perhaps by embracing our mortality and the limits of human existence, we'll make a greater effort while we're here.
 
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