Buddhist and Catholic - Raising Kids

[Thomas]

Hi DragonFli —

Before all else let me sympathise with your situation. I know it well.

As we haven't spoken before, I will declare that many (if not all) here read me to be a hardline Catholic, and I'm hardline because I won't compromise on doctrine.

It will probably come as a bigger surprise to them however, when I say that my partner of 34 years (35, 36 ... I'll have to work it out) is not religious at all, and our three girls, two of 25 and one of 21, have not been raised with any religious teaching.

The difference in our situations is that although a 'cradle catholic' I was not an active Catholic when we met (although she'll insist I was Catholic nonetheless), nor when we had kids. I 'recovered' my faith later, and felt it not right that I should, at this stage, effective enforce my beliefs on them.

I will say however, that it does pain me to see they have no comprehension of the Christ whom I know. We rarely discuss religion as my partner's view of institutional Catholicism is somewhat more 'dogmatic' in its criticism than mine in its support. Suffice to say that sparks have flown.

The point I did want to bring out is that your situation is far from easy. You occupy, in effect, different worlds, and I'm sure yours is as alien to him, as his is to yours. If it's going to be an either/or situation, it's akin to one partner emigrating, and leaving behind everything they know to go and live in the other's country.

In fact, moreso. You're talking about beliefs ... and how can one compromise on what one believes, without giving up, to some degree, what one believes in?

1. He gave me an ultimatum, and I realized the only way to be with him is to agree to let him bring all the children Catholic.

May I ask ... devil's advocate and all that ... Was it actually delivered as an ultimatum? Not a conviction? If it was, I'm not sure how much I'd want to be with anyone who was in the habit of delivering ultimatums on anything.

My partner's a vegetarian. I am not. When we first met, she used to cook meat, but then said she no longer wanted to. Seems fair enough to me. If I want meat, I'll have to buy it, cook it, using separate utensils, but she never forbad me to bring meat into the house. I have, on a couple of occasions ... but it seemed easier to opt to be a 'domestic vegetarian'. Our kids were raised vegetarians (my 'ultimatum' was that their health should not suffer — it hasn't) ... now two of them are meat eaters.

On the other hand, she fills the fridge with brie, the smell of which I abhor!

And it was she who suggested I pursue my Catholic studies and do an Honours degree ... and I cherish her saying once: "You're more Buddhist than you know." Compliment indeed!

When I want to go to the temple, the kids or him aren't going to have that same interest or excitement as me.

I'm sure he feels the same way about Church.

And yet you both want the best for them.

1My boyfriend spoke with a priest and then he came home and suggested to me that we still make them go through communion and then at age 15, let the kid decide if they want to receive confirmation or not. To me this wasn't much different than what he had insisted upon earlier.

Well sorry, but from an ultimatum, that's a huge concession.

I can sympathise here. If no baptism, no communion, then there's no real Catholicism. How does Buddhism work when you don't practice wehat you believe?

1I asked what if they chose buddhism at age 15, then he said he's still gonna make them go to church and be involved in both religions equally.

That's not saying they will have to go against their choice. Seems he's saying he wants them fully informed on both?

But all I feel is that it is very unfair since once the child has gone thru baptism, communion, his mind is going to be set on receiving the next step; confirmation and I am not going to have any say in it.

Not in my experience.

I would further say, don't you want those children to be actively Buddhist? Buddhism is not just what you do, it's why you do it. Same with catholicism.

But after thinking about it a lot, I felt like my needs have not been taken into considerations at all.

well, I'll say again, it seems he's offered a compromise. I hope you will understand when I say I haven;t yet seen what you're prepared to compromise on?

1And I felt like if he loves me as much as he says he does, then he should be willing to take my needs into consideration instead of just going along with what him and his priest discussed.

Again, he has made a concession.

1So I decided to be more vocal about my needs and told him that the only way I would be with him if we let the children wait till their 18.

No catholicism, no Buddhism?

1So at this point we've both given each other ultimatums.

Sounds like it.

The human situation is never easy. What I would say is Catholicism is a vocation of love, Buddhism is a vocation of compassion. You'll have to seat yourself in your respective hearts if you're going to find a way forward. Both are more open, expansive, generous and inclusive than either 'institutional' expression. (And the heart is where your love is for each other, too.)

But make no mistake ... whatever happens, it will be a hard road. In one deep discussion we had, my love said she sometimes felt like I had another lover. That's something to square up to ... but we found our way forward.

1I know this is wrong but sometimes it is really hard not be a little selfish. I mean what's the point if I am willing to give up everything for him but he stands strong on what he says.

Are you sure it's 'everything'? He's not said Buddhism is pagan, evil, etc.

But none of these compromises worked because we realized either way, one of us is going to be unhappy with the decision and we still do love each other very much and hate to see the other person sad.

Then follow the heart.

So right now where we are is at a point where we're going to kind of ease up on the heated up debates on religion and take our time for a while. He hasn't proposed to me yet, so yes, we do have some time to think about this stuff.

And my prayers are with you both.

Love will find a way.

And dad is going to have to butt-out.

My folks are Irish Catholic. When my love and I got together, I thought I'd be stricken from the family ... it turns out my mum was delighted I was no longer living in a hovel with two other blokes. And they love our kids.

We grow up with an image of our parents formed when we were kids. They change, but we never see it.

I don't think communion is as brainwashing as you think ... I asked my mum if I could become Church of England cos they didn't have to go to Church on Sundays.
She thought that was funny.

I hope you find a way through.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

I want you think about a new idea. Your biggest concern is the rituals of communion, confirmation, and going to church. Quite frankly, I think these rituals are meaningless, and you might want to consider letting them go to these meaningless rituals. Let them sprinkle a little meaningless water at baptism and eat a little meaningless bread at communion time. You have a much bigger problem than a little bread and water. Will they give you the right to tell the children you think communion and confirmation is meaningless? Do they have the right to tell the children they do NOT have to take refuge in the Three Jewels of Buddhism when they go to temple? Have you asked them if they will forbid you to have the children do ANY Buddhist rituals or recite any Buddhist doctrines??? It's only a matter of time before they start doing this, don't you think? By the way, what kind of Buddhist are you?

Nick — I will have to pull you up on this. You're letting your own beliefs overshadow your impartiality, and it's as clear as bloody daylight. If you were my counsellor, I'd walk away right now, you're pursuing your own agenda.

It matters not a fig what you believe. What matters is what they believe. Have you considered that Buddhism is nonsense? I don't think it is. What would you think of a counsellor who told her it was all crap, and only Catholicism had any real meaning.

The big problem here is not meaningless rituals, the problem is that you are being set up as a 'second-class citizen' in your own marriage. Is your fiancee willing to see this from your point of view? Is he willing to say it out loud to you?

That's well out of order, chum.

Sorry, but I say it as I see it. Think about it.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Salty,
　
You asked,
　
"What would you make of Quahom, for example. He was put off by Catholicism earlier in his life. Now he's gotten over it, but I don't see signs of him becoming more rigid. I think he's become practical-minded about it. If DragonFli's fiancee becomes more rigid, I'm thinking it's because he's young and inexperienced."
　
--> This brings up a fascinating question: do more people become more closed-minded or more open-minded as they grow older? You mentioned being young and inexperienced. I think it comes down mainly to being needy. (Being needy means needing a lot of attention, affection, excitement, acknowledgment, appreciation, approval, understanding, comfort, reassurance, encouragement, congratulations, etc.) The more needy people are, the more they tend to become more closed-minded as they grow old. The question, then, really is, how many people in this world are needy, very needy, or extremely needy? (I'd say a lot more people in this world are needy than we realize.)
　
"Parents can really screw up the lives of their children, pressuring them to do things they are not comfortable doing and not actually understanding the real situation."
　
--> I would take it a step further. I see bad parents as the number one cause of neediness, and I see neediness as the number one cause of unhappiness (and divorce) in the world today.
　
"The son or daughter, through inexperience, may not know any better and will simply comply with his/her parents' demands."
　
--> …which sends the son or daughter into a shell. One of the most difficult things for very unhappy people is to realize they are in a shell, begin to come out of their shell, and find other people who will help them come out of their shell. My father did that to me for a number of years until I realised that I wasn't really chasing after what I really wanted, but what my father wanted.
　
Here are two movies I’d really like you to see. One is Keeping the Faith.
　
Keeping the Faith (2000) - IMDb
　
The other movie is My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
　
My Big Fat Greek Wedding (2002) - IMDb
　
In both movies, the main character has been forced to ‘live the lie,’ that is, spend his or her entire life doing what his/her parent wants him/her to do instead of doing what he/she wants to do.
　
"I don't want to go into details, but it wasn't just my father, but friends and other family members."
　
--> But you can assign to him a certain amount of the blame. And you can still hold him totally accountable for what he did, no matter how much of the total amount it is.
　
"The son is going to have to "get tough" on this parents!"
　
--> Even more important than that, the son and DragonFli have to work together as a team as to how he is going to get tough on his father.
　
"I thought Buddhism was about not being too attached to things."
　
--> DragonFli’s in-laws are trying to force her into being a second-class citizen in her own marriage. I think it’s very healthy mentally to be 'attached' to the idea of avoiding that. Buddhism is all about having good mental health.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'll try to keep this short. A year ago I was divorced from a woman who I had to fight tooth and nail just to get my concerns heard, much less considered. You can't let someone give you ultimatums, period. I'll leave that there since others have covered it pretty well.

I do think that there is great value in exposing children to religious education. There are aspects of history and culture that a person can't properly appreciate, much less rigorously question, without exposure. I think that it is particularly important for children who are raised in Western culture to understand it's foundational mythology. You can't pick apart the underlying memes without an understanding of the origins of Christian dogma.

As a non religious parent, I've struggled with finding a way to expose my kids to Christian education in a way that I can control and monitor. Fortunately, my fiancee is a member of a liberal Lutheran church, so they will have an opportunity to get that experience. I consider that a huge plus. We too are working to come to a consensus on parenting issues. She has two children of her own, and we recently discussed whether I would be comfortable with my girls going to church, getting baptized, being confirmed, etc. My position is that yes, I want them to have the exposure, and they can make up their own minds what they would like to do, but I insist that I be allowed to engage all the children, hers and mine, in a rhetorical dialog about their religious experience designed to foster critical thinking skills,and that I not be asked to preserve the sanctity of "belief" for its own sake. I, OTOH, promise to keep things constructive and avid cynicism for IT's own sake. That seems like a fair compromise to me.

Chris

 

[Nick the Pilot]

China,

You said,

"A year ago I was divorced from a woman who I had to fight tooth and nail just to get my concerns heard, much less considered."

--> I'm curious: How far into the relationship did you start noticing this was the case?

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

It started in earnest when we had kids, which was about six years into our relationship, but in retrospect I can see that she had been trying to ramp up her control from the moment we were married, and that having the children, she felt, gave her the leverage to try to exert total control. I didn't want control, I wanted consensus and cooperation, but it was a constant fight to preserve my self- identity. I'm pretty well read on psychology; I understand how control dramas work, and I approached things from a pretty enlightened, patient stance, but none of that makes a bit of difference when your partner is pig headed, incurious, and believes that they rightfully rule the flippin' universe. When it comes to children, if your partner's attitude and methodology are an unthinking replication of their own programming it's impossible to make any rational inroads. People who have never questioned their programming will not begin to do so once they have kids. That's a fact. It doesn't get better, it gets worse, and trying to reason with them, for them, feels like an intellectual smack down which just stokes their self-perceived victim/ poor me drama.

Chris

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Chris,

Fortunately, I believe there are ways to spot these kinds of things very early in a relationship. (A lot of what I do is teaching people how to spot these things.) It can be learned. I'm sorry you weren't able to learn these things early enough. The good news is, other people are.

 

[Thomas]

Hi DragonFli —

Here's an interesting text from St Paul ...
"If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she consent to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy."
1 Corinthians 7:12-14

Now the way I read this is that your boyfriend should relax, and further, everyone else not in the relationship should back off and chill out, too.

For what it's worth, I'll give you my reading from the Catholic side of the fence, but I do think the principle works both ways ...

But what it does say, and this is Scripture, is that those who believe the non-Catholic partner in a relationship is destined for another place than the Catholic one, have got it wrong. And this covers the kids, too.

We can discuss this further if you want ... it's up to you.

From my own point of view, I'll have my issues to deal with when we get to the Pearly Gates, but as regards my (non-Catholic) family, we come as a job lot, it's all or nothing ... and I wouldn't expect Jesus to expect anything different from me.

Now, to lighten the mood ... a Catholic joke:
Jesus comes out of Heaven to find St Peter at his usual post, checking the new arrivals. "Listen," he says, "it's rammed in there, Health and Safety are going ballistic. I'm gonna have to build an extension, so shut the gates tonight, and stay shut until I'm done, no one gets in until I say so."
Three days later, he comes storming across to collar St Peter again. "What the hell? They're standing on each other's shoulders in there! I thought I told you to shut the gates?"
"I did!" remonstrates the hapless Apostle, "It's your mum! Every time I turn my back, she opens 'em up again!"

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Dream]

Dragonfly, I am a single person with little experience in relationships; but I have observed good marriages including that of my own parents. One thing I know is no matter how well you explain your situation, none of these people here have any clue what it is really like in your relationship. We just can't know. It is as if your decision had been made already, and you are exploring why you made it using us as a resource. From our perspective your decision is already made. We are just studying you and waiting to find out what your decision was. I hope that whatever you decide you will accept your path, and that is actually more important than whether you have made the best choice. In hindsight both choices will cause regret and both will be best. Which path will you find most acceptable to walk in? (By the way it is really nice when we get new members on the forum that actually post, and it is nice to meet you.)

I'm not bashing those who offered advice, and it is good advice all around, heartfelt and wise. I feel like I've learned something from it myself. Especially all of the personal experiences. Those are really valuable.

 

[dragonFli]

Hello All,

So I feel so happy that there are so many of you who are willing to give me advice and share their experiences. This has really helped me think of things that I haven’t even thought about before. And sometimes even though I can’t find a solution solely through a forum, it is nice to express my feelings and hear what people have to say. It’s a good way to “vent”.

So to update you all on what happened in the past few days.. So I have been keeping my boyfriend up to date on the forum as well and some of the things I mentioned from my point of view, he disagree with saying that’s not exactly what he thought. We were going to follow what Nick suggested about sitting down and both parties express to each other how well they understand the other person’s view. But before we even got to that point, we had an argument about something else and it finally led to the religious issue, again.

Then after very hurtful arguments we both decided it is best for us to break up since neither one of us was willing to agree to the other person’s suggestion. But we decided to end it on good terms telling each other how much we still love and care for each other. As I watched him walk away from me I just couldn’t bare it. As stubborn as I am, I am so in love with him and very weak hearted. So I decided to go after him and told him that if the only way I get to be with him is to agree with him, then I would do it. He told me no, since he knows that’s not what I want. But I told him I’m willing to do that for us.

So… our final decision was that I agreed to let him take the children for baptism, communion and confirmation and to church every Sunday. And he can teach the kids whatever he wants about his beliefs. But, I get to take the children to the temple whenever I want to and have them participate in my religion as well. Even though this is what we agreed upon, I know the child is going to get tired of doing all these things at that age. But at this point I believe whatever happens will happen and I am going to deal with it. So these days I’m working on telling myself that everything will be okay and the decision I made was going to be worth it.

Now, the next step is to get my boyfriend’s dad involved because he is definitely going to object to our kids going to temple and participating in it. I told my boyfriend that he needs to TELL his dad, not ASK him that these are the things that we are going to do. Hopefully my boyfriend will be willing to stick to what we agreed upon and not decide that they’re not going to the temple either. Then I am going to have no choice but leave. But I am keeping my fingers crossed till my boyfriend talks to his dad soon.

I’ll keep you guys updated on how that goes. But, thank you again for all your valuable inputs!

 

[wil]

My only advice....do everything....everything you can to minimize any negative impact on the kids...nothing is worth the affect on their psyche of having mom talk about dad or dad talk about mom as a wacko and trying to get them to choose sides.

Take the high road everytime, and honor the fact that they are intelligent beings and will make their own decisions in time....love them beyond measure.

I hold you and yours in the light.

 

[Snoopy]

I hope that it turns out for the best for the two of you, whatever the outcome.

s.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi Dragonfli,

I want you to know that I think there is still hope for your relationship. But there are three things that absolutely must happen. First, your boyfriend is going to have to start asserting himself against his father. You said that he hopes he does, but you must take it to the next step — you must coach him in being assertive, and give him opportunities to practice, practice, practice becoming more assertive. Is that something you want to do? Is that something he wants to do? Is he willing to admit he needs to be more assertive against his father?
　
Second, I grew up in a similar family. I did not talk to my father for 4 years and I did not talk to my brother for 9 years. (When we finally all got back together again, things went a lot better.) Is your boyfriend ready to stop talking to his father, perhaps for years, over this? If it comes down to his choice between you or his father, who is he going to choose?
　
Third, the most important communication technique is seeing things from the other person’s point of view. This is nothing more important (or more difficult) than pointing out dilemmas: "On the one hand I want to ----- but on the other hand you want to -----." There are three kinds of dilemmas:
　
1. On the one hand I feel ----- but on the other hand I feel -----.
2. On the one hand I feel ----- but on the other hand you feel -----.
3. On the one hand you feel ----- but on the other hand you feel -----.
　
The most important and difficult type of dilemma to point out is the third type of dilemma. Can both you and your boyfriend verbalize each other’s dilemmas as in the third example? Sit down with him and see if both of you can do this regarding your issue with setting up religious training for your future training. (Then do it for his need to become more assertive against his dad.)
　
If the two of you can work on these things, I think you still have a chance to pull this off.
　
Let us know how you are doing. We are all pulling for you!