I believe that band had many benfactors and don't see any indication that money was an issue...
But do you see sarcasm on the part of the disciples as normal other places?
‘the major discovery of Christian history’?
- Thread starter Nick the Pilot
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But do you see sarcasm on the part of the disciples as normal other places?
Amergin
Well-Known Member
I never claimed that nothing existed prior to the Big Bang. I only say, that we do not know what existed prior to the Big Bang or how the Big Bang was ignited. I only claim that nobody yet knows with certainty what existed before the Big Bang.
Some people believe prior to the Big Bang and igniting the Big Bang was an Anthropomorphic God with a human like personality. That God has emotions, jealousy, vindictiveness, cruelty, and rage attacks. That sounds like the least likely hypothesis of what existed before. It is clearly imaginary because it is adopted from the personality of the Stone Age or Copper Age Warlord.
Others claim that the pre-Big Bang entity that existed before and ignited the Big Bang. They wisely avoid describing a humanoid personality to that entity but think it is intelligent and conscious. That is like saying, "I don't know what it was, so I call it God
Others like Hawking, Weinberg, Feynman, and yours truly now admit that while something preceded the Big Bang, we have no idea, other than wild speculation, what that existing entity was. We have no evidence one way or the other. We do not know. I think this is the only honest belief about creation.
I do not deny the possibility of a conscious humanoid God like JWHW, Allah, or Christ as the creative entity. Similarly I cannot deny the possibility of methane metabolising, 10 legged cephalopods in the methane ocean of a Saturnine Moon. I cannot deny that skinny green humanoids travel at light speed from a distant Solar System fly in disc shaped vehicles to land in Kansas to stick probes up the bum holes of red necks.
It is unnecessary or perhaps foolish to attempt to disprove something that is not necessary to explain what we know. It is unnecessary to disprove something that is invisible, inaudible, non-palpable, immeasurable, and obviously based on a human template. Subjective eyewitness reports by one or a mere handful of people claiming to see or hear God's is unreliable as are all eyewitness accounts as we all know. Eyewitness reports have convicted hundreds if not thousands of innocent men of murder leading to execution. We frequently hear of DNA evidence reversing convictions.
That is a distorted view. Science begins with simple observations of phenomena. It follows with collecting of all evidence related to the phenomena. There is some speculation in what we call hypotheses or possible ideas about the evidence. Then there follows testing by scientific protocols. Data is collected in what we call "results". Then considering all of that, speculation leads to a number of possible explanations. Those explanations are tested and peer reviewed, retested by researcher and peers. When one explanation logically explains the phenomenon, it is a Theory. Theories can be later revised if new evidence is found. If the Theory is so conclusively backed by evidence and analysis it becomes a Law.
Alfred Wegener, meteorologist in Greenland, noted in looking at a map that the continental margins of Western Europe and West Africa fit like puzzle pieces into the Eastern Margins of North and South America. He had an observed phenomenon. He proposed that this could be only explained by continental drift. It remained a hypothesis because continents then (1911) could not be shown to move.
The US Navy mapped the Atlantic Ocean floor in the early Cold War for military purposes. They discovered an undersea mountain range that was located about half way between Europe/Africa and the Americas, from the Arctic to the near Antarctic. Later it was found to circle the globe 25,000 miles. Submersible unmanned subs explored this range and found a long rift zone with rising magma, pillow lava, volcanoes, and steam vents. That suggested that the rift was continuingly widening. In Iceland, the mountain range rises above the surface. The rift crosses Iceland. Markers places in specific locations showed a drift of 2.5 cm each way from the rift centre. Over the next several years, this was measured by the ground markers and by satellite laser measurements. It proves the Continents were moving apart by 5 cm per year. The much-ridiculed Wegener was vindicated.
When they found rising magma at the rift zones, and sinking of ocean crust at a distant place to be replaced by new crust at the rift zone, they had the evidence for the mechanism of the Law of Continental Drift. The mechanism was based on two theories. One was that rising magma pushed the plates apart forcing them to subduct at distal plate margins. The other was subduction of a plate pulled it away from the rift, which then filled with new lava crust. The former had more evidence and magma cyclic currents up welling at the rift moving out in both directions, then pushed the plate away. The lead edge of the plate collided with the lighter edge of another plate making it subduct or dive under the lighter continental plate.
The Theory of Plate Tectonics has so much backing evidence it is considered a Geological Law (more than a theory.) There was no speculation here. Everything was based on observation, analytical thinking, advancing technological tools for measuring the mechanism all led to the Laws of Plate Tectonics.
Show me the logical syllogism of which the conclusion is that God exists.
I do not know any other scientist (and I personally know a great many) who deny ideas of theoretical physics such as multiple dimensions beyond our direct measurement. I for one think that there may be multiple dimensions, more likely than not. However, I do not claim to be able to prove it. Some of the math befuddles me. You are describing the minds of scientists whom you do not know. Read Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg, and Brian Greene who are perhaps the most famous scientists in the world.
Empirical study is just one method of inquiry. It is a major tool of acquiring knowledge of the energy-matter universe. There are other tools including mathematical equations that lead to compelling results some provable and some not yet provable. I fail to understand your philosophical double talk. "Human construct" is what? In addition, why do you say it is superior to the universe? That kind of thinking is not a part of my mindset. Philosophy and Theology are human constructs of the entire cosmos and beyond the cosmos not based on logic, evidence, or mathematics. The only human constructs that I know are football, rugby, politics, and religion. (No offence intended.) Philosophy-Theology are human constructs of humans from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. The Renaissance started the cultural process of freeing us from obsolete methods of inquiry.
Alban Bealltainn,
Amergin
bob x
Well-Known Member
In the passage about the woman rubbing Jesus down with expensive ointment, Judas was critical, "That could have been sold for 300 denarii, and the proceeds given to the poor" (the evangelist editorializes that he was concerned about getting money donations because he was embezzling). Kurt Vonnegut was of the opinion that the reply of Jesus, "The poor ye have always with you, me ye have not always with you," should understood as A JOKE: "Translate it, Don't worry Judas, there will still be poor people when I'm gone!"
Another NT passage that is clearly a joke is in Paul, "Don't trust Cretans, for as a prophet said [*actually a poet, named Epiminedes, so this passage is sometimes called the Epimenidean Paradox, although Liar's Paradox is a more pronounceable name for it], All Cretans are liars-- and he was a Cretan himself! That witness spoke the truth!" This passage obviously presents difficulties for anyone who wants to take all scripture literally, but is not a problem if we understand that Paul has his tongue firmly in his cheek.
Another point worth making is that in the Ancient Mediterranean world, miracles, virgin birth, and Divine lineage were considered normal for anyone of importance.
We see this in Alexander the Great, where his surprise in his vicitories is supported by the logic that he must be the Son of God.
And even among the Romans just after the time of Jesus, the normally sober historian Tacitus recounts how Vespasian micraculously healed at Alexandria before taking up the purple. The point was that Vespasian was great simply because he returned order and stability to the Roman Empire after a fairly disastrous reign by the Julio-Claudian dynasty which ended in civil war.
Amergin
Well-Known Member
Humans have a certain arrogance about admitting that we don't know the cause of something. It is so strong that we search and search for an answer, but if none if found, speculative imagination can consciously or subconsciously invent a god compatible with their ancestral culture.
Miracle today is used to describe something wonderful but unexpected, like surviving a fall from a high cliff. Two survivors of an air crash which killed 130 people consider their survival "a miracle."
It was especially common in the era of 1000 BCE to 500 CE.
There are different kinds of perceived miracles.
A man falls down in a convulsive seizure, tonic-clonic jerking, loss of urinary and bowel control. A healer prayes over him and/or drives out the demons possessing the man. Within a few minutes the man awakens. It looks like a miracle.
Another epileptic has Partial Complex events suddenly speaking gibberish, seeing angels or Satan, eyes jerking repeatedly to the left or right. A priest calls on the devil to "get out of this man." The seizure ends and the man returns to rational behaviour while a bit fatigued or sleepy.
A woman screams and shouts at devils, she kills her children, and grimaces in gruesome way. A priest and assistants hold her down and command the demons to leave. The woman, exhausted, settles down for at least a while. It seems to be a miracle.
A man has psychophysiological paralysis. A priest prays and essentially hypnotically suggests that the paralysis is cured. The man gets up and dances around. We see this at Benny Hinn shows.
Some direct faking occurs, perhaps at the pay of the healer. Feigns paralysis in a wheel chair. They take him up to the stage and the healer slaps him on the head and says, "In the name of Jesus, heal this man." The man gets up and dances. Later he receives his share of the money given by the congregation.
Amergin