the disciples...

[wil]

I started wondering last month... Jesus traveled/lived/worked 30 years... and then started gathering his disciples. Which to me sort of implies that none of the folks he knew, worked with, walked with, were worth/suited/prepared for this inner circle teachings... And then he walked up to this fisherman and that and said "follow me".

Now Thomas indicated perhaps he knew some of them before and made the decision to bring them along... do we find any indication of that? Any gospel writer that says "he went to his old friend XXX"

In addition I posited that all the folks he had encountered Judas was most suited for the task Jesus had for him, or most suited to assist Jesus on his path...Not more than the other 11, but more than the thousands that Jesus met in the journeys of his first 30 years...

Thoughts?


Peter - Faith
John - Love
Andrew - Strength
James (Son of Zebedee) - Wisdom
Philip - Power
Bartholomew - Imagination
Thomas - Understanding
Matthew - Will
James (Son of Alphaeus) - Order
Simon the Zealot - Zeal
Thaddeus - Elimination/Renunciation
Judas/Mathias - Life

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Now Thomas indicated perhaps he knew some of them before and made the decision to bring them along... do we find any indication of that? Any gospel writer that says "he went to his old friend XXX"

Well ... John (1:42-49) says ...
"He (Andrew) findeth first his brother Simon, and saith to him: We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter ... Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him: We have found him of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write, Jesus the son of Joseph of Nazareth. And Nathanael said to him: Can any thing of good come from Nazareth? Philip saith to him: Come and see. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him: and he saith of him: Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile. Nathanael saith to him: Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered, and said to him: Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered him, and said: Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel."

This would seem to imply that Jesus foreknew Peter's arrival, and Nathanael's. Nathanael seems quite struck by Jesus' words.

Exegetes who follow the Johannine chronology have Jesus go up to Jerusalem at least three times, and the first time, probably not with the twelve, that number not yet being complete. They say after His first return, Peter went back to fishing for a bit.

Peter lived in Capharnaum, and some argue that he and John were not poor fishermen, but the sons of a thriving business. John seems to have an independent income, he was certainly well educated, and is well known by the Temple authorities, accepted even though a disciple of Jesus.

Peter might not have been so well born, but he made a good living. And if Jesus was based in Capharnaum, might well have known him as Simon. Jesus stays at his house on His return from Jerusalem.

+++

The pre-missionary life of Jesus is, of course, a matter of great speculation. Take all the theories into account, and He got around more than Richard Branson!

The Christian Tradition has its own ideas, but these are far too (apparently) mundane to excite the interest/tickle the fancy of many ...

But it would appear Jesus chose his first followers from among the disciples of John the Baptist.

Peter - Faith
John - Love
Andrew - Strength
James (Son of Zebedee) - Wisdom
Philip - Power
Bartholomew - Imagination
Thomas - Understanding
Matthew - Will
James (Son of Alphaeus) - Order
Simon the Zealot - Zeal
Thaddeus - Elimination/Renunciation
Judas/Mathias - Life

Interesting list ... where's it from, if you don't mind me asking?

I always regard Peter as symbolising the will, which would equate to your faith, and John the intellect, which again crosses with your love ... but that's from the exegesis of Eriugena.

Thomas I would also agree as intellectual understanding, as opposed to spiritual insight — when the disciples were hiding after the crucifixion, where was Thomas? Some assume (and I do too) that he was out and about, if it was gonna happen, it might as well happen sooner rather than later, he it was who said 'Let us also go, that we may die with him" (John 11:16) when Jesus announced His third trip to Jerusalem, so it seems Thomas saw the writing on the wall before the others ... but did not, of course, the Resurrection.

Just some thoughts,

God bless,

Thomas

 

[wil]

Peter lived in Capharnaum, and some argue that he and John were not poor fishermen, but the sons of a thriving business. John seems to have an independent income, he was certainly well educated, and is well known by the Temple authorities, accepted even though a disciple of Jesus.

Yes there is amongst many a feeling of these poor travelers...yet the bible is sprinkled with indication that they were quite well off as a group moving through the land... one is when traveling with your entourage if poor everyone is hourding their own funds, not so if you actually get to the point of having a treasurer...or when the whole feeding of 5/7,000....what should we do, should we go to town and get food? Imagine having the wealth to feed 5,000...right down to the end where they fought over his clothes....indication as to the value and quality.

Interesting list ... where's it from, if you don't mind me asking?

I always regard Peter as symbolising the will, which would equate to your faith, and John the intellect, which again crosses with your love ... but that's from the exegesis of Eriugena.

The roots are from Jewish tradition of the meanings of names...as a group they are Unity Metaphysics... twelve powers of man provided by G!d.

 

[Thomas]

Not forgetting the women who accompanied them, and the wealthy women who funded them:
"And Joanna the wife of Chusa, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who ministered unto him of their substance." Luke 8:3.

 

[wil]

Not forgetting the women who accompanied them, and the wealthy women who funded them:
"And Joanna the wife of Chusa, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who ministered unto him of their substance." Luke 8:3.

Exactly....

Takes money to be a good itinerant preacher!

Part of the thought is that he gathered the folks who could not only carry the word forward, but support him on his path and journey, both monetarily and spiritually. They each had skills and traits that were beneficial to his accomplishing his task.

Today you can see the similar thinking in Napolean Hill's "Think and Grow Rich" In his 'law of success' he gives us his 12 types of riches, and monetary wealth is number 12!

The 12 Types of Enduring Riches
1.Positive Mental Attitude
2.Sound physical health
3.Harmony in human relations
4.Freedom from fear
5.Hope of future achievement
6.Capacity of applied faith
7.Willingness to share blessing
8.Labor of love
9.Open mind on all subjects
10.Self Discipline
11.Wisdom to understand people
12.Financial Security


In his book as he interviewed the wealthy of America last century he discovered their inclination toward 'master mind' groups. Surrounding yourself with a team of lawyers, accountants, business people etc that will benefit each other and themselves on their journey.

As on this site, and hopefully in life, we've found folks that have identified our path and will assist us in nudging us back on it...(unfortunately sometimes when you need them most they fall asleep in the garden....or is that actually the times when you need to figure it out for yourself??)

 

[Amergin]

Exactly. Today you can see the similar thinking in Napolean Hill's "Think and Grow Rich" In his 'law of success' he gives us his 12 types of riches, and monetary wealth is number 12!

The 12 Types of Enduring Riches
1.Positive Mental Attitude
2.Sound physical health
3.Harmony in human relations
4.Freedom from fear
5.Hope of future achievement
6.Capacity of applied faith
7.Willingness to share blessing
8.Labor of love
9.Open mind on all subjects
10.Self Discipline
11.Wisdom to understand people
12.Financial Security

I thought that the apostles were all from Galilee near the area where Jesus lived. It seems rational to assume those who knew him were likely to be his followers. How many is unclear to me. The number 12 is likely not meant to be a calculated number. You find that other saviours like Mithra had 12 disciples.

I think Kersey Graves postulated that 12 comes from the Zodiac. The Zodiac influenced many religions at that time and a few centuries earlier. Another number found in abundance in Mithraism/Zoroastrianism is 7. Zoroastrian scripture is filled with sevens.

It came from Mithraism. Mithraic Zoroastrians had 7 sacraments, and "saving grace." The Mithraic Eucharistic words were "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation."

In Athanasian Christianity, 7 is a mystical number. There were beasts with 7 horns, and one with seven heads, seven deadly vials, 70th week, 7 angels on the sea of glass, 7 places of the beast, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpet angels, 7 years tribulation, 7 stars for angels representing the 7 Churches, and 7 beatitudes.

In summary, I believe that what we now call Christianity is a primarily Pagan Indo-European Religion with some Jewish influences and names perhaps because the Jewish Jesus and Iranian Mithra merged by cultural diffusion.

Amergin

 

[taijasi]

Most certainly the 12 disciples represented the 12 zodiacal signs ... just as the 12 `lost' tribes of Israel did. This is because ONE of these realities is much, much grander than the others. There are also `12 Creative Hierarchies,' which are responsible for all Systemic life as we know it. Five of these have achieved Liberation ... leaving Seven.

I'm no astrologer, but I do like to try and keep certain things in mind ... as a backdrop against which all else [hmmm, reality as we know it] is occurring. "In the Mind of God" is a good beginning point. Realizing that such a Mind has structure, order, Purpose, method and ~ by definition ~ is meaning itself ... ah, well, that helps too.

And, perhaps best of all, we are CONNECTED: within that mind, we have our tiny mind(s). There exist distinctions and divisions, yet there is connection, both between one person and another [and hence between all people] ... and between humanity and the Divine [again, from each of us to God & back, as well as en masse, again making a full circuit].

"In God we live and move and have our being" ... and this, come what may, does not change. Rather, everything else does change. And that includes God, even while - relatively speaking - God will seem to us [because of scale] to remain the one constant. Remember, ELOHIM is plural. There is the One Transcendent [be you a deist, theist, monist, panentheist, etc.] ... and there the 7, or 10, or 12 Spirits before the Throne of GOD.

[Each Eloha reflects, or essentially is, therefore, a TRINITY, subordinate to a Greater Trinity ... as even Man shows this same arrangement: mind, emotions, body; or Will, Love-Wisdom, Intelligent Activity on a higher turn of the spiral, on the level of SOUL.]

So, certainly these correspondences existed, and exist. And one could trace out how each disciple relates to one particular astrological sign or another, also one of the chakras ... as well as certain qualities both Macrocosmic and microcosmic. I think the familiar correspondence, to Soul qualities, is particularly helpful, since Christ was teaching the Apostles an esoteric Christianity, but was also presenting something much more accessible [especially THROUGH THEM] for the world as a whole.


Not everyone cares, or is ready to learn about Ursa Major ~ Sirius ~ Pleiades relationships ... and to see that Jesus actually appears in about 4 different incarnations from the time of Moses down through the time of the Galilean. EVERYONE, I would argue, is most definitely ready to be reminded:

• Who we are
• Why we are here
• Where we come from
• Where we're going
• How we're supposed to get there
• What things will look like as we get closer [mileposts]
• And especially, why & how all of these hints reveal to us exactly what we need to know about our relationship to each other, to God and to the Cosmos.

 

[Thomas]

"And after these things the Lord appointed also other seventy-two: and he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come." Luke 10:1
Let's not forget this lot, either ...

So prior to this, according to Luke 9, Jesus sent the 12 out by themselves to preach, and then he sent a further 72 ... but it should be realised that their 'Christianity' was as yet incomplete, and would not come to fruition until Pentecost.

It is apparent from Acts 18-19, for example, where early Christian communities are baptised according to the teachings of John the Baptist:
"And he (Paul) said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism" (Acts 19:2-3).

We can see here the grounds for later disputes between the various JudeoChristian sects — Ebionites, Nazoreans, etc., — in that some would profess a reformed Judaism, or perhaps a non-Trinitarian Christianity.

The Christianity founded by Peter and the followers of Christ in the upper room at Pentecost was founded on the Way of the Cross, and the revelation of the Trinitarian Godhead.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Amergin]

"And after these things the Lord appointed also other seventy-two: and he sent them two and two before his face into every city and place whither he himself was to come." Luke 10:1
Let's not forget this lot, either ...

So prior to this, according to Luke 9, Jesus sent the 12 out by themselves to preach, and then he sent a further 72 ... but it should be realised that their 'Christianity' was as yet incomplete, and would not come to fruition until Pentecost.

It is apparent from Acts 18-19, for example, where early Christian communities are baptised according to the teachings of John the Baptist:
"And he (Paul) said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism" (Acts 19:2-3).

We can see here the grounds for later disputes between the various JudeoChristian sects — Ebionites, Nazoreans, etc., — in that some would profess a reformed Judaism, or perhaps a non-Trinitarian Christianity.

The Christianity founded by Peter and the followers of Christ in the upper room at Pentecost was founded on the Way of the Cross, and the revelation of the Trinitarian Godhead.

God bless,

Thomas

Those are your opinions, Thomas. Of course I have different opinions. As an Atheist, I have no reason to favour one mythology over another. I view Jesus as the man depicted in the Gospels and Epistles, by my reading of them.

I do not believe that Christianity was founded in the Upper Room, by Peter, or by Jesus. There was no Christianity until well after the last Gospel writers had passed away (2nd or 3rd Centuries at the earliest.)

Originally, there were a number of Jesus cults who followed Jesus as a great prophet, messiah, or wise man. His deification only occurred later and in stages.

At first with Paul, Jesus was depicted as a subordinate to God (i.e. not God but "Lord.") Like in Chivalry, a King or Emperor is supreme and a Lord is a high-ranking subordinate. Paul makes that distinction. The Gospel writers also show clearly that Jesus was subordinate to God, carried God's message, did God's will, and did not know because only God knew. This is the teachings of Paul that were further defined by Bishop Arius. Jesus was a created god. He was a god but not THE GOD.

In the first three centuries of the Common Era, Arian Christianity was the largest Christian sect. A rival sect invented by Athanasius preached that Jesus was not a created or subordinate god despite the evidence of the Gospels and Paul's Epistles.

Athanasian Christianity only won the competition because Emperor Constantine converted to Athanasianism after his Mother St. Helena did. At Nicaea, Constantine bullied the bishops into rejecting Arianism, Paulism, Gnosticism, Marcianism, Thomasism (surviving only in India), and the pure Jesus cults of the first century. Athanasian Trinity Christianity became the official Christianity. Under Theodosius II, it became the only legal religion in the Empire even though Arians continued among the German nations to the north and the Roman provinces conquered by the Germans (Gaul, Italy, Spain, and Carthage-Tunisia).

Although I am a non-theist, I am in one sense a follower of Jesus. I follow his moral message, his wisdom, his justice, and his compassion to oppressed women. Jesus also seemed to favour separation of Church and State. Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

Good health to you Mate and beneficial Easter.

Amergin

 

[Dream]

I started wondering last month... Jesus traveled/lived/worked 30 years... and then started gathering his disciples. Which to me sort of implies that none of the folks he knew, worked with, walked with, were worth/suited/prepared for this inner circle teachings... And then he walked up to this fisherman and that and said "follow me".

Now Thomas indicated perhaps he knew some of them before and made the decision to bring them along... do we find any indication of that? Any gospel writer that says "he went to his old friend XXX"

In addition I posited that all the folks he had encountered Judas was most suited for the task Jesus had for him, or most suited to assist Jesus on his path...Not more than the other 11, but more than the thousands that Jesus met in the journeys of his first 30 years...

Thoughts?


Peter - Faith
John - Love
Andrew - Strength
James (Son of Zebedee) - Wisdom
Philip - Power
Bartholomew - Imagination
Thomas - Understanding
Matthew - Will
James (Son of Alphaeus) - Order
Simon the Zealot - Zeal
Thaddeus - Elimination/Renunciation
Judas/Mathias - Life

That got me thinking. Maybe Jesus purposely chose all of the 'wrong' people to be his disciples. Going by the worst possible descriptions he chose:

Peter - A fisherman who did not go to temple. A sinful man out of fellowship.
John - Destined to be a fisherman, and probably a lot like Peter.
Andrew - just Peter's brother
James - just John's brother
Philip - some yuppie
Bartholomew - NT mentions only 4 times with no occupation or description
Thomas - 'The Shadow', Matthew the tax man's buddy.
Matthew - The Tax Man. You mess with him = you mess with his shadow.
James (Son of Alphaeus) - Another Roman tax agent
Simon the Zealot - a knife-wielding fundamentalist enforcer
Thaddeus - Simon's pal.
Judas/Mathias - a thief