A spiritual person is...

seattlegal said:
You do understand the dangers of when someone mistakes Makyo for Satori, no? Guidelines are certainly in order here!
(see Luke 4, Matt 4)
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Certainly, replacing one illusion for another is not an escape from illusion at all, no matter how firm the experience. That said, what I have discussed is still true of the latter. I find it humorous, however, that you use the instance of Jesus' tempting by the devil to support your point.

Was the experience between Mara and Buddha of the same nature? Certainly they are understood quite differently by the two groups. Buddhists will say Mara is the ego, whereas Christians will say that the Devil actually came to Jesus during his time there. Perhaps in each case this is actually the time of enlightenment, but I doubt Christians would confirm this and thus we are left to pure speculation.

Overall, I am not sure exactly what point you are making by saying this.
 
Snoopy said:
@Lunatik

The Buddha made rules that he intended his followers to abide by, on sufferance of punishment for transgressions.
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When he started receiving disciples that were too stupid to understand his message, they certainly seem to have been installed. For many years of his teaching, there were absolutely no rules at all... I have repeatedly pointed towards this. I suppose I am not advocating the ignoring of rules, I am only pointing out that these are also a hinderance to any attainment. You begin to fall into the trap of the Christians and Muslims, your religion starts to become too materialistic and superficial, rather than rebinding us to our essence.
 
Lunitik said:
Certainly, replacing one illusion for another is not an escape from illusion at all, no matter how firm the experience. That said, what I have discussed is still true of the latter. I find it humorous, however, that you use the instance of Jesus' tempting by the devil to support your point.

Was the experience between Mara and Buddha of the same nature? Certainly they are understood quite differently by the two groups. Buddhists will say Mara is the ego, whereas Christians will say that the Devil actually came to Jesus during his time there. Perhaps in each case this is actually the time of enlightenment, but I doubt Christians would confirm this and thus we are left to pure speculation.

Overall, I am not sure exactly what point you are making by saying this.
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Those who mistake mara for God during Makyo, thinking it is enlightenment. Christians call these such ones "the lawless ones," "sons of perdition," and "antichrist."
 
seattlegal said:
Those who mistake mara for God during Makyo, thinking it is enlightenment. Christians call these such ones "the lawless ones," "sons of perdition," and "antichrist."
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I think you have misunderstood me, let me reiterate... if your every action is motivated by a pure love, how can anything you do be wrong? If this pure love guides all you do, you do not require rules - in fact rules become derisive to your state because they create duality.

By pure love, I mean love which isn't targeted, which isn't attached to something in particular - an all encompassing love for the interconnectedness of all, or what most faiths call God.

The Bible speaks much about entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it tells you God is love, yet it teaches that those pursuing this actively are heretic. They never publicize anything about theosis, which is the process in Christianity for attaining the Kingdom - something I find appalling. They teach that superficial actions are enough, even utilizing at least 3 chakras during baptism (at least of a baby) without explaining it in a meaningful way. I have already explained why I think this has happened, the people gaining control of the Church saw this as undermining their aspirations for power...

Entering the Kingdom of Heaven is the Christian phrase referring to gaining enlightenment, it also speaks much about Jesus being the light, but you can be too. Jesus was human, just as you are, just as Krishna or Buddha too. These people are only important because they rebelled against negative practices of their time.
 
Lunitik said:
I think you have misunderstood me, let me reiterate... if your every action is motivated by a pure love, how can anything you do be wrong? If this pure love guides all you do, you do not require rules - in fact rules become derisive to your state because they create duality.

By pure love, I mean love which isn't targeted, which isn't attached to something in particular - an all encompassing love for the interconnectedness of all, or what most faiths call God.
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I'm talking about when you are mistaken about this state, and are experiencing makyo, thinking it to be satori. Such ones can use some guidance, no? We are told to test the spirits. Having a tool, such as the rule of reciprocity, would be a handy guide, no?
 
Lunitik said:
The Bible speaks much about entering the Kingdom of Heaven, it tells you God is love, yet it teaches that those pursuing this actively are heretic. They never publicize anything about theosis, which is the process in Christianity for attaining the Kingdom - something I find appalling. They teach that superficial actions are enough, even utilizing at least 3 chakras during baptism (at least of a baby) without explaining it in a meaningful way. I have already explained why I think this has happened, the people gaining control of the Church saw this as undermining their aspirations for power...
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I would say there might be a difference between Christianity and some churches...
 
seattlegal said:
I'm talking about when you are mistaken about this state, and are experiencing makyo, thinking it to be satori. Such ones can use some guidance, no? We are told to test the spirits. Having a tool, such as the rule of reciprocity, would be a handy guide, no?
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I am not really sure how they can be mistaken, it seems to me that one is delusion while the other is confusion. Makyo is convincing yourself of something, perhaps you have decided God has spoken to you or some such. Satori is extremely confusing, you are not sure what just happened, every cell in your body has exploded with ecstasy, everything around you begins to glow - it is beautiful. There is no mistaking something just happened, but the very arrival of this state dictates lack of delusion, lack of ties in any way to anything during the attainment - including yourself or God. You truly experience oneness for a moment.

I am not sure, however, how you convince someone that is delusional to follow rules that go against their beliefs either. I will only say that it is impossible to go against the Golden Rule once you have reached Satori.
 
seattlegal said:
I would say there might be a difference between Christianity and some churches...
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I have already stated that I see Christianity as entirely separate and even against the teachings of Christ, so I would certainly agree with this statement.
 
Lunitik said:
I am not sure, however, how you convince someone that is delusional to follow rules that go against their beliefs either. I will only say that it is impossible to go against the Golden Rule once you have reached Satori.
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Guidelines help to keep people going off into delusion, or to pull them back from delusion.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/kalama1.htm

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%207&version=HCSB

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 1&version=HCSB
 
Lunitik said:
When he started receiving disciples that were too stupid to understand his message, they certainly seem to have been installed. For many years of his teaching, there were absolutely no rules at all.
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Source of this time-line?
 
seattlegal said:
Guidelines help to keep people going off into delusion, or to pull them back from delusion.

Buddhist Scriptures: Kalama Sutta

Matt 7 - PassageLookup - Holman Christian Standard Bible - BibleGateway.com
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Guidelines are not rules, one provides a path, the other causes repression. Paths ease the way, repression is a poison which we see the negative aspects of with the recent child molestation cases involving bishops and priests. Rules never help, whereas guidelines direct towards the light. Rules bring about guilt and many other negative feelings, guidelines are purely for assistance.

Why do you keep directing me towards such things, however? I would say that you are taking a much too scholarly approach to religion, I can't help wondering what you think this will achieve? You have to really understand what is being portrayed by these teachings, the teachings themselves are utterly meaningless otherwise. I suppose you can use them to shape your life, but it will never cause a genuine transformation until you can arrive at the destination they describe. I believe, however, that you have stated that this destination does not interest you - somewhat strange since you seem to have studied the ramifications at length.

(actually, I think it was Luecy or whatever that said enlightenment didn't interest them, sorry if I am wrong)
 
Lunitik said:
Guidelines are not rules, one provides a path, the other causes repression. Paths ease the way, repression is a poison which we see the negative aspects of with the recent child molestation cases involving bishops and priests. Rules never help, whereas guidelines direct towards the light. Rules bring about guilt and many other negative feelings, guidelines are purely for assistance.
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LOL. While I agree with you that repressive rules can have unintended consequences, I don't agree that the rules can be blamed for an individual's misconduct like this. The individuals involved where not compelled to take the vow to follow the repressive rules, were they? I would say this showcases just how flawed and sinful we all are.

Why do you keep directing me towards such things, however? I would say that you are taking a much too scholarly approach to religion, I can't help wondering what you think this will achieve? You have to really understand what is being portrayed by these teachings, the teachings themselves are utterly meaningless otherwise. I suppose you can use them to shape your life, but it will never cause a genuine transformation until you can you arrive at the destination they describe. I believe, however, that you have stated that this destination does not interest you - somewhat strange since you seem to have studied the ramifications at length.
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Hey, I need all the help I can get. :)
 
I will say that the destination is EXTREMELY simple, and making it more complicated is quite detrimental. It is about dropping all opposites, all views and perceptions, everything you have learned which over complicates, everything you think you are certain of. Once everything is gone, what is left?
 
seattlegal said:
LOL. While I agree with you that repressive rules can have unintended consequences, I don't agree that the rules can be blamed for an individual's misconduct like this. The individuals involved where not compelled to take the vow to follow the repressive rules, were they? I would say this showcases just how flawed and sinful we all are.

Hey, I need all the help I can get. :)
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Repression is always bad, you should always exhaust an energy rather than causing it to build and build - how you choose to exhaust is up to you. The rocket is entirely based on this truth, yet people find it difficult to apply such laws to behavior. I think it is foolish to believe that such things are just plain sinful, it must be understood why such things have arose in the first place. By the time it has gotten to this point, it has already become a huge issue, but if it wasn't repressed in its earlier stages it would never have arose in the first place. Simply telling people something is wrong does not help at all, they must understand the arising to truly gain control over it.

Let me know when I stop being helpful, though :)
 
Lunitik said:
Repression is always bad, you should always exhaust an energy rather than causing it to build and build - how you choose to exhaust is up to you. The rocket is entirely based on this truth, yet people find it difficult to apply such laws to behavior. I think it is foolish to believe that such things are just plain sinful, it must be understood why such things have arose in the first place. By the time it has gotten to this point, it has already become a huge issue, but if it wasn't repressed in its earlier stages it would never have arose in the first place. Simply telling people something is wrong does not help at all, they must understand the arising to truly gain control over it.

Let me know when I stop being helpful, though :)
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Seeking to diffuse the issue is more effective than repressing it, no?
There are tools available to diffuse it in both Buddhism and Christianity.
 
seattlegal said:
:)
Hsin Hsin Ming
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I enjoy this, and yet still it is an over complication of something so very simple - I have tried to explain this by describing the erroneous nature of language. Simply by placing words on it, automatically the true sense is lost - it is now subject to the readers perceptions. Still, it is a beautiful text.
 
seattlegal said:
Seeking to diffuse the issue is more effective than repressing it, no?
There are tools available to diffuse it in both Buddhism and Christianity.
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My definition says that diffuse means to spread out, of course this will result in a lesser action but alas the same energy is put out into the cosmos. Once the craving is understood, you can take a course which will cause the craving to cease - this is ideal, for diffusion alone will make it likely that the craving will occur again.

Other than this, I am not sure what you mean.
 
Lunitik said:
My definition says that diffuse means to spread out, of course this will result in a lesser action but alas the same energy is put out into the cosmos. Once the craving is understood, you can take a course which will cause the craving to cease - this is ideal, for diffusion alone will make it likely that the craving will occur again.

Other than this, I am not sure what you mean.
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an example of specific tools:

Rahula Sutta: Advice to Rahula
 
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