What would Christianity be without Zoroastrianism?

[mojobadshah]

What would Christianity be without 1. one God 2. an arch nemesis to this one God 3. angels and fallen angels 4. the Kingdom of Heaven 5. Heaven and Hell in the afterlife contingent upon one's good and bad deeds in this life 6. the Messiah 7. a Ressurection 8. a Judgement day?

Could Christian religious institution even function without these concepts?

 

[wil]

What would Christianity be without 1. one God 2. an arch nemesis to this one God 3. angels and fallen angels 4. the Kingdom of Heaven 5. Heaven and Hell in the afterlife contingent upon one's good and bad deeds in this life 6. the Messiah 7. a Ressurection 8. a Judgement day?

Could Christian religious institution even function without these concepts?

Quite well I'd say... you've just made ties to the bulk of confusion and negativity surrounding our current and past thoughts on Christianity.

1. One G!d....the anthropormorphizing of spirit is one of the larger jokes perpetrated on Christianity.

2. an arch nemesis.... their ain't no critter called the devil... the adversary is within...we like the convenience of blaming others for our mistakes and evilness but inventing a little invisible character don't fly anymore.

3. angels and fallen angels ... again, anthropomorphized little winged beings flying around... not.

4. the Kingdom of Heaven ... not a physical location above the clouds as thought for millenia or so says the cosomonaut... tis right here right now, in our midst...if you can't find heaven here...you ain't gonna find it anywhere else.

5. Heaven and Hell in the afterlife contingent upon one's good and bad deeds in this life ... Santy Claus? counting who is naugty and nice and going to dole out gifts based on his latest spreadsheet? We are not punished for our sins, but by them.

6. the Messiah ... As a fav preacher said, "Son if you are looking for someone to save you, your gonna have to knock on another door, in this church it is upto each of us to save ourselves."

7. a Ressurection ... I die daily.

8. a Judgement day? .... yeah? when? for 2k years everyone has thought it would occur in their lifetime...they've been wrong....and will continue to be wrong for the next 2k+ years...


The shema and love your neighbor....that is enough.

 

[mojobadshah]

You got a point, but then again why would you even call that Christianity? Are you telling me that most Christian religious institutions, don't incorporate these Zoroastrian influences, and are preaching Christianity the way you've described it. I highly doubt that.

What if all those Zoroastrian influences were omitted from the scriptures, from the story of Jesus Christ? What would Christianity be left with? How would the message change?

 

[Amergin]

I think Wil is describing a previously unnamed religion, Cafeterianity. Its only similarity to Christianity is that both begin with a C.

If only we could design our own gods and religions to fit our psychological needs. Oh, I forgot, Athanasius and Constantine already did that.

There is a difference between Jesus and Santa Claus?

Of course there is. Santa Claus was based on a real human being who existed. Jesus of Nazareth is a hypothetical Jewish lad for which there is no hard evidence of his existence. My opinion is that he is a composite of several Jewish proto-messiahs, a century older Jesus the sorceror, but mostly Mithra of Persia's biography. Jesus is based entirely on the legends of some people years after the supposed time of Jesus. He is mentioned seriously only in Christian writings (Gospels and epistles). Secular and contemporary writings only report that believers in the Jesus myth do exist.

Jesus of Nazareth more likely never walked on land let alone walking on water.

The only positive aspect of Jesus is his supposed teachings which are admirable and worthy. Whether he or some Greco-Romans made those teachings in a bit of creative writing we will never know for certain. Maybe there was a real Jesus of Nazareth and he was a jolly good chap afterall. But calling him a god is simply Iron Age superstition.

I like Wil's attitude and am not critical of that.

However, the 3 God- 1 God, 1+3=3, 3+1=1 rubbish would be like an Abbott and Costello comedy routine. Who's on first, what's on second, I don't know's on third.

Amergin

 

[Dream]

The whole Zoroastrian thing has me thinking: If the proposed modern corruptions of Christianity are real and Christianity is thereby discredited, it will give people reasons to contemplate new sacred writings. Also perhaps this could help to dissociate the name of God from the sins of the West?

 

[wil]

You got a point, but then again why would you even call that Christianity? Are you telling me that most Christian religious institutions, don't incorporate these Zoroastrian influences, and are preaching Christianity the way you've described it. I highly doubt that.

What if all those Zoroastrian influences were omitted from the scriptures, from the story of Jesus Christ? What would Christianity be left with? How would the message change?

You are correct, most of Christendom does not preach what I wrote...

but it appears you actually got my point quite clearly.... because if we eliminated all that you say is Zoroastrian influences....

What would we be left with? How would the message change?

It is as if I sent this to you.... we'd be left with the message!

the shema and love your neighbor....that is enough.

Yes it is!

 

[wil]

I think Wil is describing a previously unnamed religion, Cafeterianity.

nice... I like it, but not quite. I's a follower of Jesus...just been sloughing off the excess. Thomas Jefferson made a good start.

Also perhaps this could help to dissociate the name of God from the sins of the West?

this desires an explanation...

 

[mojobadshah]

Well let me tell you what I think would happen if these key Zoroastrian influences were left out of the Jesus Christ narrative. We would be left with a story that is not that much different from a Greek or Hindu myth, but more like the latter because Jesus's final miracle, and probably the most impressive, his prestigious resurrection after the three days is more reminiscent of the Buddhist concept of Karma, Buddhism therein being a fusion of Indic and Iranian cultures (Hindu and Saka or Scythian). Buddhism was established in Gandahara where Afghanistan is today.

"The doctrine of metempsychosis is both Greek and Indian. The Greek and Indian doctrines must be historically connected, because they correspond point for point. Souls pass into the body of a higher or lower creature according to their conduct in their previous incarnation; this cyclical process continues over thousands of years; pure conduct wil eventually lead to the divine state; the eating of meat is to be avoided. Such a system is not reliably attested for any other people. But we cannot regard it as Graeco-Aryan heritage, because it is absent from the earliest stratum of Indian literature, the Vedas, and equally from the earliest Greek literature,a nd it stands out in sharp contrast to earlier Inian and Greek ideas about death. It appears as it were from nowhere in both countries at about the same tiem, around the sixth century BCE, and we must suppose that it reached them from a common source, probably across the PErsian empire, even though no such doctrine is attested in Iran." - Indo-European Poetry and Myth, M.L. West pg. 22

It would resemble this kind of myth, but the message Christianity promotes would be totally lost. We would be worshipping this Jesus Christ because he said to worship him. Why? Because he performed Godlike miracles. Not because there is a reward for being good. Churches might as well be promoting Superman in the Churches.

 

[wil]

Well let me tell you what I think would happen if these key Zoroastrian influences were left out of the Jesus Christ narrative. ....because Jesus's final miracle, and probably the most impressive, his prestigious resurrection ...

how exactly would that be left?? From your OP item number 6 the resurection is a zoroastrian construct....therefor it would also be left out. Just as Thomas Jefferson left it out when he rewrote the gospels.

It would resemble this kind of myth, but the message Christianity promotes would be totally lost. We would be worshipping this Jesus Christ because he said to worship him.

Worship him? Where did Jesus tell us to worship him? Jesus said...'why call me good?' He told us he did nothing, it was just G!d working thru him. That is the message...

Why? Because he performed Godlike miracles. Not because there is a reward for being good. Churches might as well be promoting Superman in the Churches.

The current concept of Jesus is more of a Superman...a G!d/man...

There is not a reward for being good....being good is the reward.

 

[Saltmeister]

What would Christianity be without 1. one God 2. an arch nemesis to this one God 3. angels and fallen angels 4. the Kingdom of Heaven 5. Heaven and Hell in the afterlife contingent upon one's good and bad deeds in this life 6. the Messiah 7. a Ressurection 8. a Judgement day?

Could Christian religious institution even function without these concepts?

1. That's essential to Christianity, without which it would be pagan.
2. Christianity doesn't need an arch-nemesis.
3. I think it would still work. I consider the earthly life more important than the heavenly.
4. It would be more of a social movement then, without the promise of an alternate reality. I consider the kingdom of heaven an important concept. I had no idea this existed in Zoroastrianism.
5. Similar to my response to point 4.
6. I'm not interested in a messiah concept. There is no point believing in a messiah if you are not willing to be an agent of change socially, politically and economically, fighting for justice, working to minimise economic foot-print, giving to charity, blessing the meek, being humble, etc.
7, 8. They're part of my ideology.

I personally do not believe Christianity "hangs" on Zoroastrianism because it is a hybrid of at least two other thought systems, particularly Judaism and Hellenism. As long as Christianity is the syncretism of at least two thought systems, it will continue to exist. You can cut out the Zoroastrianism and Christianity will still be Christianity because it doesn't absolutely need Zoroastrianism to continue to be Christianity.

Christianity only ceases to be what it is when you cut out all thought systems except for one. For example, you may eliminate the other two, leaving yourself with Hellenism. When you're left with just one thought system, there's no syncretism so Christianity ceases to be.

Christianity doesn't absolutely need Zoroastrianism to exist, but it does absolutely need syncretism to exist.

I for one am not particularly concerned about the continued existence of Christianity, as long as it fulfills its mission. When we have fulfilled our duty, our tradition will no longer be important. Christianity is a temporary religion, not a permanent one. (So let us all rally ourselves for the cause and be sacrificed as cannon fodder.)

Christianity assimilated Zoroastrianism and Hellenism. These two thought systems have since disappeared and ceased to exist as major world religions. When Christianity has absorbed, assimilated and co-opted all other pagan traditions, it will itself cease to exist. It will surrender its sovereignty to the last remaining and permanent Abrahamic and monotheistic tradition. This will be either Judaism or Islam. (I'm putting my bet on Judaism.)

When Christianity has fulfilled its mission, Judaism and Islam can do whatever they like with Christianity.

 

[Saltmeister]

However, the 3 God- 1 God, 1+3=3, 3+1=1 rubbish would be like an Abbott and Costello comedy routine. Who's on first, what's on second, I don't know's on third.

What the heck are you doing talking about Australian policitians? Do you think this is how you can get hold of Johnny Howard's glasses? Or would you rather go down the hill with Alexander Downer and play hockey with Joe Hockey? You'd have to be Catholic to be chasing after an Abbott. If you're male and are thinking of dating ladies, you might also be interested in Julie Bishop.

 

[Dream]

this desires an explanation...

I'm just trying to think of motivations to pursue the topic of Zoroastrian corruption of Christianity. Sometimes people on the forums bring up the fact that Christians have been involved in many wars; and then they immediately suggest that God is bloodthirsty because of it. That argument has not made much headway here on this site, but it keeps coming up. Perhaps though it might be a motivation to find corruption in Christianity. You may have heard that when a good man sins goodness itself is cast into question.

 

[wil]

I see.... he has definitely got is mojo workin, feeling deminished somehow by not making the headlines for the past few thousands years and is on a roll to rectify the situation.

While the squeaky wheel often gets the grease....if it last too long the car gets sold. More flys with honey my dad always said.

 

[Lunitik]

8. a Judgement day? .... yeah? when? for 2k years everyone has thought it would occur in their lifetime...they've been wrong....and will continue to be wrong for the next 2k+ years...

Have you seen the Baha'i view of Judgement Day?

In the Bible it is said that Jesus created a new world after destroying the last... Baha'u'llah uses this same definition for the Judgement Day in various other scriptures.

If we look at the Revelation of John, Judgement Day has already started upon the time there is a battle at Har Migeddon - for Baha'is, this was the case. The son of the its founder was to be hung by the Turks, however the Russians attacked the Turks in Israel thus saving his life. For Baha'is, WWI was the Battle of Har Migeddon - only Har means mount or hill, it is located in Israel as I have mentioned.

Similarly, in Islamic prophecies, the tail of Dijjal or anti-Christ plays out quite as predicted. Mehdi is sent first, he gathers a group of people to attack the Muslims. Quickly, another comes, Isa or Jesus, who kills the Sultan or Caliphat (dual names) - he wrote him a letter predicting his death and the Sultan died within 2 years of it. Since Judgement Day has occurred according to the Baha'is, thus a new prophet is possible. It is also stated that the two witnesses of Revelations are none other than Ali and Muhammad of Islam, thus validating Muhammad as a prophet of God. It is also stated in Islam that catastrophes such as we are witnessing cannot occur before a new prophet has been sent!

Scholars of this faith have explained the Revelation of John in depth, explaining the 1260 prophecies among others... it is rather breathtaking to realize it is all true. That said, Baha'u'llah also does away with superstitions such as you have mentioned. For him, heaven and hell merely describe states of closeness and distance from God. Since there are two prophets which have ushered in this faith, the 144 multitudes are also applied. For Baha'is, there are 12 signs of the Zodiac which have been represented through history, Moses had 12 tribes, Jesus 12 disciples, and Muhammad had 12 Imams among other examples. Each Zodiac has 6 qualities, thus in each Zodiac age there are 72 qualities. Two times seventy two is 144, the same word for thousand has been used in the previous verses and translated as multitude, but here it is said thousands. It merely represents the followers of this faith.

Of course, this is only my own personal investigation into their claims, but it becomes quite convincing the more you dig. Indeed I entered into the search attempting to disprove, but all the time things were further and further confirmed. Likewise, prophecies in Judaism and Hinduism are met through date prophecies, everything written about Buddha Meitreya is confirmed, and even a few Mormon prophecies are confirmed. Amazing!

Indeed, Zoroaster is named as one of the prophets by Baha'u'llah.

 

[Lunitik]

There are many more proofs, and I am not attempting to convert, only contributing another view. I would ask all to at least look into this faith, however, as I feel it will inevitably cause an awakening and affirmation of your faith in God.

Let us also recall that Jesus probably spoke Aramaic, thus would have used the word "Alaha" when speaking of God. This is consistent with the word "Allah" in Arabic, although the Muslims would say that it is God's name, not merely the word for God. I have looked into the etymology of this and see no basis why this cannot merely mean "God" but instead must be a word. I merely point out that this is not a contradiction in reality.

Of course, this is conjecture in reality, since the oldest texts are Greek. It is really impossible to know, but certainly it seems consistent. Certainly, long before Muhammad, Arab Christians and Jews used this word in their texts also.

 

[mojobadshah]

1. That's essential to Christianity, without which it would be pagan.
2. Christianity doesn't need an arch-nemesis.
3. I think it would still work. I consider the earthly life more important than the heavenly.
4. It would be more of a social movement then, without the promise of an alternate reality. I consider the kingdom of heaven an important concept. I had no idea this existed in Zoroastrianism.
5. Similar to my response to point 4.
6. I'm not interested in a messiah concept. There is no point believing in a messiah if you are not willing to be an agent of change socially, politically and economically, fighting for justice, working to minimise economic foot-print, giving to charity, blessing the meek, being humble, etc.
7, 8. They're part of my ideology.

I personally do not believe Christianity "hangs" on Zoroastrianism because it is a hybrid of at least two other thought systems, particularly Judaism and Hellenism. As long as Christianity is the syncretism of at least two thought systems, it will continue to exist. You can cut out the Zoroastrianism and Christianity will still be Christianity because it doesn't absolutely need Zoroastrianism to continue to be Christianity.

Christianity only ceases to be what it is when you cut out all thought systems except for one. For example, you may eliminate the other two, leaving yourself with Hellenism. When you're left with just one thought system, there's no syncretism so Christianity ceases to be.

Christianity doesn't absolutely need Zoroastrianism to exist, but it does absolutely need syncretism to exist.

I for one am not particularly concerned about the continued existence of Christianity, as long as it fulfills its mission. When we have fulfilled our duty, our tradition will no longer be important. Christianity is a temporary religion, not a permanent one. (So let us all rally ourselves for the cause and be sacrificed as cannon fodder.)

Christianity assimilated Zoroastrianism and Hellenism. These two thought systems have since disappeared and ceased to exist as major world religions. When Christianity has absorbed, assimilated and co-opted all other pagan traditions, it will itself cease to exist. It will surrender its sovereignty to the last remaining and permanent Abrahamic and monotheistic tradition. This will be either Judaism or Islam. (I'm putting my bet on Judaism.)

When Christianity has fulfilled its mission, Judaism and Islam can do whatever they like with Christianity.

First off I want to emphasize that I'm not talking about you're private interpretation of Christianity. I'm talking about Christian institutions, Churches.

Second of all, why do you insist on calling what you're talking about Christianity? If you took Zoroastrianism out of the equation you might as well call what you're talking about Greek mythology or pre-exilic Judaism. But if you take out Judaism and Greek mythology you might as well call it Zoroastrianism. What we are left with is an example, but this example leaves us with no reason to worship him over other examples. I'm sure there were plenty a do-gooders that were known for performing miracles. Why shouldn't they be worshipped? What does this example you're describing have to offer the world that all the others didn't?

 

[Amergin]

Without Zoroastrianism, what would Christianity be like?

There would be no Christianity or nothing resembling post 5th century Christianity.

There likely would be little or no memory of an itinerant Jewish preacher named Yeshua. Without Zoroastrianism in the Roman Mithraic form, Jesus would be long forgotten. Jews would still be Jews and Europeans still Pagans

Without Zoroastrian spawned Christianity of Athanasius, Constantine, and Theodosius II, there would have been no:

1. Persecution, extermination, or conversion of Roman Pagans to the Jesus Cult would never have happened.

2. There would have been no Dark Ages 393 CE to1700 CE. That is because the Christian paranoia and fear of knowledge would not have crushed all scientific inquiry as heresy.

3. The Greek knowledge of the Spherical Earth, Heliocentric Solar System, and Ideas of animal-human evolution taught by Hypatia of Alexandria as late as 412 CE would have survived.

4. We would never suffered the banal stupidity of the Flat Earth, Geocentric Solar System, 6000 year old Earth, magical creation of two first Jews Adam and Eve, and belief in the fable that all life forms are unchanging.

5. Democratic freedoms and rights would have not been crushed for 1300 years by persecution, inquisition, bloody religious wars, executions of dissenters, subjugation of women, enslavement of Africans, and exploitation of the poor by the rich.

6. The American Revolution would not have been necessary if Americans in 1776 already had freedom of and from religion, freedom of press and assembly, and an uncorrupted justice system. There would have been no black slavery, no Civil War, no WWII, no Holocaust of Jews by Germans, no hatred of gays, racial minorities, non-believers or different believers as there is today. There would have been no constitution necessary.

7. Millions if not billions of people would not have been killed in religious wars of Christian versus heretical Christians, Christians versus Muslims, Christians versus Pagans, Christians versus distant Native Peoples with Nature Religions (Native Americans.) Thousands of people would not have died at the hands of the Inquisition, witch-hunts, heretic burnings, and scientist executions.

Crikey! Think about it. There are almost 7 billion people in the world today, an overpopulation crisis. Think how many there would be today if the millions of victims of Christian Wars survived and had offspring. 10 billion?

8. Without Christianity, we might have made space flights by 1066 CE. We might have long ago cured and prevented Cancer. We might have colonies on Terraformed Mars and Venus for our larger population. We would have understood evolution by 1100, molecular genetics by 1200, elimination of genetic diseases by 1300, and grow replacement human organs from cloning the patient's own cells (Muscle, liver, heart, lungs, brain, blood vessels, etc.) That would allow us to specifically grow a heart ventricle or a quadriceps muscle without the need to use foetal tissue.

Amergin