Lucky Number 7

M

mojobadshah

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So I was thinking about it: the Zoroastrians have an hymn solely dedicated to the holy heptad of Amesha Spentas or 7 hypostasis of the Wise Lord called Yasna Haptanghaiti. The word "Haptanghaiti" also happens to be akin to the Greek title of the Old Testament the "Septuagint." Genesis mentions that the world was created in 7 days and on the 7th day the creator(s) rested. According to convention the tradition associated with the number 7 began with the Babylonians, and was transmitted to the Jews, but Genesis was compiled in Persia a Zoroastrian Empire and the Zoroastrians are noted to have dedicated the 1st day of the month and every subsequent 7th day to the Wise Lord, and I'm wondering if maybe this tradition was transmitted to the Jews via the Babylonians via the Assyrians via the Zoroastrians. There is also the association of the number 7 with the 7 lamps or eyes of God in Zachariah and a reference to the Zorobabel who's name oddly resembles that of Zarathushtra. And finally there are the 7 Spirits mentioned in revelation and from what I understand there is some debate as to whether these 7 spirits may be one Holy Spirit a concept which is very similar to that of the Holy Heptad of the Zoroastrians. Any thoughts?
 
It is said that there were seven gods in the group of gods which created humanity in Genesis 1:26 ("Let us make man."), thus the importance of the number seven.
 
Oh, do not forget all the 7s in The Apocolypse of John.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia... radarmark

101010 is completion and then the constant repeating of this from 111 in a contant flow of life processes.
 
The origin is quite simple: 7 is the nearest approximation to the number of days in one quarter-phase of the moon; 7x7 is the nearest approximation to the number of quarter-phases in the year.
 
The reason that seven is so important is that the ancients realized it would be impossible to construct a seven-sided Rubik's cube. I got that from a scripture, but I can't remember which one. Let me know if you're interested in chapter and verse.
 
The origin is quite simple: 7 is the nearest approximation to the number of days in one quarter-phase of the moon; 7x7 is the nearest approximation to the number of quarter-phases in the year.

Yeah, that would appear to explain it. But what about the origin of the idea of the creation of the world in 7 days in Genesis and the 7th day being dedicated to God?

The oldest testimony for the existence of day dedications in the Zoroastrian tradition is attested in Yasna 16 where their God is mentioned first and after every 6 deities after that making 30 dedications in all which is approximately the number of days in a lunar cycle.

Is there any reason that the idea of the world having been created in 7 days in Genesis, God having rested on the 7th, wouldn't have originated among the Zoroastrians?
 
Yeah, that would appear to explain it. But what about the origin of the idea of the creation of the world in 7 days in Genesis and the 7th day being dedicated to God?
This originated from Chaldean astrology: the Chaldeans, whose self-name Khashd was eroded to Khald when they migrated from the Caucasus (their language is difficult, and we know little of it, but it is definitely not Indo-European, perhaps akin to Georgian, whose self-name is Khalt), had the idea of a strict seven-day week. The quarter-phase week is usually seven days, but sometimes an eighth day must be skipped: the lunar month always has at least 29, and needs a 30th day slightly more often than not; the ancient calendar (first attested in a text from Sargon of Akkad c. 2300 BC but the idea goes back to deep prehistory) starts the month with day 1 when the crescent is just visible after sundown, count through day 7 when the half-moon should appear, then days 1 through 7 after half, and a skipped day at full moon (the 15th of the month, when religious feasts were typically scheduled), then days 1 through 7 after full with 7-after-full also a special day when the waning half should appear (22nd of the month), then days 1 through 7 after waning half where 7-after-waning (29th of the month) was called in Akkadian biqquru "day of watching" because at sunset one would visually check whether the crescent came back (making it the 1st of the next month) or not yet (so that a 30th day had to be left out of the cycle).

The strict seven-day week means that the quarter-phase, instead of falling always on the last day of the week, slips around from one position to the next, once or twice every lunar cycle. The days were divided by the Chaldeans into 24 hours, instead of the older habit of only 8 "watches", and each hour named for a planet, in order of the planets' speed of motion Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon; each day then was named for its starting hour, giving the order Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn. The Genesis creation has:
"light" created on the day of the Sun (no explanation necessary);
the separation of heavens from earth on the day of the Moon (the Moon, as the lowest planet, was thought to hold up all the heavens; Atlas in Greek is from Semitic Etrach from Khashdic Etrash "moon");
the separation of land from sea on the day of Mars (the "war" between land and sea was the primordial fight in older Mideastern creation myths; the word rendered "ocean" or "the deep" in Genesis is Hebrew Tehom cognate to Babylonian Tiamat, the monster of the ocean defeated by Marduk in their version of the primordial-war story);
the astrological signs and the calendar-rhythm of the seasons created on the day of Mercury (that planet was associated to Ea or Enki, patron god of scribes, astrologers, and other intelligentsia);
life created on the day of Jupiter;
males and females created on the day of Venus;
and "rest" created on the day of Saturn.
The oldest testimony for the existence of day dedications in the Zoroastrian tradition is attested in Yasna 16 where their God is mentioned first and after every 6 deities after that making 30 dedications in all which is approximately the number of days in a lunar cycle.

Is there any reason that the idea of the world having been created in 7 days in Genesis, God having rested on the 7th, wouldn't have originated among the Zoroastrians?
Because, as you show, Iran still kept to the "quarter-phase" week, in which not every cycle was seven days, but one or two extra are inserted to make 29 or 30. The only place I know where the quarter-phase week is still functioning is Thailand, where the phan wat "auspicious day" for visiting a Buddhist temple is the quarter-phase day, sticking to the same "weekday" (in the sense of the strict-seven-day week) two or three times in a row before slipping to the next; the custom at some time must have been universal in south Asia.

Your argument as usual amounts to:
1. This custom is very ancient and found in multiple cultures
2. Iran is one of the cultures where some form of it is found
3. Therefore, Iran must have had it first, and everybody else's version of it must have derived from Iran.
It appears, rather, that although "Magian" later came to be used often as a synonym for Chaldean-style astrologer, in the time and place of Zoroaster (rather far from Mesopotamia) the Chaldean-style strict-seven-day week had not been heard of yet.
 
Well tell me this: what's the relationship between the 7th day being dedicated to Saturn and the 7th day being God's day of rest in Genesis? I see how there is a relationship between how every 7th day is dedicated to Ahura Mazda and the 7th day being God's day of rest in Genesis.
 
Well tell me this: what's the relationship between the 7th day being dedicated to Saturn and the 7th day being God's day of rest in Genesis? I see how there is a relationship between how every 7th day is dedicated to Ahura Mazda and the 7th day being God's day of rest in Genesis.

What about the fact that in religious numerical studies that all cubic numbers from 111 to 101010 have good meaning? Even the dreaded 666 in HOLY studies means something good.
 
Well tell me this: what's the relationship between the 7th day being dedicated to Saturn and the 7th day being God's day of rest in Genesis?
Saturn is associated with "rest" because it is the slowest-moving. However, there was an earlier custom of taking a day off work every quarter-phase, that is, usually every seven; as reflected in Sargon's calendar, where the days off are the 7th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the month.
I see how there is a relationship between how every 7th day is dedicated to Ahura Mazda and the 7th day being God's day of rest in Genesis.
Not every 7th day; every quarter-phase day. The strict-seven week is simply unknown to the Avesta. Both are going back to prehistoric customs, but the Middle Eastern developments were not yet practiced in Iran.
What about the fact that in religious numerical studies that all cubic numbers from 111 to 101010 have good meaning? Even the dreaded 666 in HOLY studies means something good.
"Cubic" doesn't mean a number with three like digits; it means a number like 7x7x7 = 343, or 8x8x8 = 512. "666" anciently had to do with a trouble-spot in the calendar, when counted in base seven, because the year is not 7x7x7 days exact, seven "omers" where each omer has seven weeks: if every week is seven days, then once you've counted from day 0 of week 0 of omer 0 up to day 6 of week 6 of omer 6 you still have 22 1/4 until you should go back to 0, 0, 0 (three and a fraction weeks, or "a week, and a pair of weeks, and a division of a week"), while if you make each week a quarter-phase of the moon (lengthening some weeks by an 8th day to keep in sync with the moon) then 49 quarter-phases = 12 1/4 months is still shy of the year by 3 and a fraction days ("a day, and a pair of days, and a division of a day"). This gap of time between 6-6-6 and 0-0-0, the "time and a pair of times and a division of a time", was considered ominous.
 
Saturn is associated with "rest" because it is the slowest-moving. However, there was an earlier custom of taking a day off work every quarter-phase, that is, usually every seven; as reflected in Sargon's calendar, where the days off are the 7th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the month.

Not every 7th day; every quarter-phase day. The strict-seven week is simply unknown to the Avesta. Both are going back to prehistoric customs, but the Middle Eastern developments were not yet practiced in Iran.

I see that, but then how would the Zororastrian people have known to dedicate the 7th day after the 1st, and the 7th day after the 7th, and almost the 7th day (the 8th day) after that, and almost the 7th day (the 8th day) after that or the 1st to God? How do we know that the Assyrian idea of the usually 7th day of rest wasn't based on the Zoroastrian tradition of dedicating every quarter-phase day to God? Furthermore the Assyrians usually may have rested on the 7th, but what does that have to do with God or the Creator(s)?
 
How do we know that the Assyrian idea of the usually 7th day of rest wasn't based on the Zoroastrian tradition of dedicating every quarter-phase day to God?
It's not an ASSYRIAN idea. I told you that it's attested from 2300 BC, practically as early as we have any writing at all, and well before either Assyrians or Iranians existed as distinct peoples; and that it is spread all the way across Asia at least to Thailand, suggesting that this way of counting the phases goes back to deep, deep prehistory.
 
Right Akkadians, but that doesn't change my point. Saturn was just one of 7 deities. So it the usually 7th day became the day of rest in Akkadian. It became not Saturn's day, but the Creator(s) day of rest in Genesis. But Ahura Mazda is the Creator, and the usually 7th day was the Creator's day. Sounds to me like at the very least this practice must have been a hybrid of both Akkadian and Iranian practice, no?
 
No, the quarter-phase was a day of rest, in which secular business was suspended and one was supposed to dedicate one's thoughts to the gods, long before the assignment of seven days to the seven planets.
 
No, the quarter-phase was a day of rest, in which secular business was suspended and one was supposed to dedicate one's thoughts to the gods, long before the assignment of seven days to the seven planets.

You got a source for this?
 
Nevertheless, I find it interesting that the Zoroastrians even had a calendar as far back as the Yasna. Any idea how far the Greek lunar calendar went back? Because these are the guys who claimed Zoroaster lived c. 6000 B.C.
 
It's not as if the moon is hard to notice... Counting up the days is probably the first task that was undertaken with "large" numbers (larger than the number of fingers) in the first place, and calendars of some kind go back to prehistory everywhere except among totally innumerate cultures. There were some differences, though, about how the month would be subdivided. Dividing the month into four quarter-phases is found in a wide belt from the Mediterranean to Southeast Asia, but the Egyptians and Greeks divided the month into three pieces ("decades", generally of ten days), waxing moon, near full, and waning moon, a system occasionally referred to in Mideastern texts as well despite the dominance of the fourfold division there. On the northern steppes, it was more common just to divide the moon into halves ("fortnights") from new to full and full to new. The reconciliation of the lunar and solar cycles was also handled in a variety of ways.
 
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