Science of the Web

radarmark

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I must agree with your reading. It's like all that there is is this web. Reality is the web or veil. Unreality is the image we project onto the web or veil.

Classicial science is the science of the veil.

Science at the sub-atomic level seems to be science at the web-veil boundary.

Any speculations on how the science of the web will look like, assuming it is at all possible?
 
I am going to try something entirely new and blessedly old here. This "Science of the Web" idea is to create a co-operative wiki-philosophy with which to meld the seemingly contradictory notions of science and religious thought.

I will be posting at least three introductory posts (to keep each one to a manageble length). One will focus on the FOUNDATIONS, things from this side of the veil (that is things that are usually considered science, math, philosophy, and history). This initial list will be the things I see as needed to further the "science of the web" from the Western scientific and philosophic polint-of-view. Two will focus on PRINCIPLES, call it a list of what is needed (per that Western scientific point-of-view) to create a scientific fundamentals, theories, laws, and methodology. Three will focus on ASSUMPTIONS, a list of that which a "science of the web" would be based.

Okay? The idea is to create a scientific evaluation of the spiritual ("science of the web"). First by looking at what in Western science and philosophy needs to be addressed as a basis (the FOUNDATATIONS). Second by looking at what constitues a scientific method (the PRINCIPLES). Finally by looking at what, per the foundations and principles, what, if anything, in our experience of the spiritual (the ASSUMPTIONS).

This would be a co-operative effort insofar as possible. If the thread is suddenly high-jacked by those with a different agenda, or if our conceptions begin to differ too much, we can split this thread into (say) "Science of the Web1" to "Science of the Webn".

Any ideas????:confused:

Love and peace and silence and unity will overcome all... Radar :)
 
I am going to try something entirely new and blessedly old here. This "Science of the Web" idea is to create a co-operative wiki-philosophy with which to meld the seemingly contradictory notions of science and religious thought.

I will be posting at least three introductory posts (to keep each one to a manageble length). One will focus on the FOUNDATIONS, things from this side of the veil (that is things that are usually considered science, math, philosophy, and history). This initial list will be the things I see as needed to further the "science of the web" from the Western scientific and philosophic polint-of-view. Two will focus on PRINCIPLES, call it a list of what is needed (per that Western scientific point-of-view) to create a scientific fundamentals, theories, laws, and methodology. Three will focus on ASSUMPTIONS, a list of that which a "science of the web" would be based.

Okay? The idea is to create a scientific evaluation of the spiritual ("science of the web"). First by looking at what in Western science and philosophy needs to be addressed as a basis (the FOUNDATATIONS). Second by looking at what constitues a scientific method (the PRINCIPLES). Finally by looking at what, per the foundations and principles, what, if anything, in our experience of the spiritual (the ASSUMPTIONS).

This would be a co-operative effort insofar as possible. If the thread is suddenly high-jacked by those with a different agenda, or if our conceptions begin to differ too much, we can split this thread into (say) "Science of the Web1" to "Science of the Webn".

Any ideas????:confused:

Love and peace and silence and unity will overcome all... Radar :)

Personally I believe things are a lot more complicated than the knowledge the world has. An example is sodium or salt. Not everyone needs the same amount of salt. Science says one standard for everyone just because your human however its not true. Blood types really do matter. The more center the blood type the more sodium you need and the amount of salt diminishes from the partial blood types you get from say O the universal donor. So an O+ type would need more salt than say and A+ type. Salt in religious texts is related to spirit symbolically ;)
 
I quite understand, thanks Donnann. We will attempt to keep this as inclusive as possible... remember this just answers the question "Any speculations on how the science of the web will look like, assuming it is at all possible?" Am not making any claims whether there will be any real progress towards unifying science and spirituality, just that I and anyone else interested can get an external heading check.
 
I quite understand, thanks Donnann. We will attempt to keep this as inclusive as possible... remember this just answers the question "Any speculations on how the science of the web will look like, assuming it is at all possible?" Am not making any claims whether there will be any real progress towards unifying science and spirituality, just that I and anyone else interested can get an external heading check.

I think my problem is sometimes I push too hard. I understand things are a progression.
In my own personal life though there are some things I can handle and my spouse pushes me too hard. I have asked him to get separation papers. Sometimes people just dont belong married. An example I tried to take my daughter to a good doctor, had one appointment. Wanted to take her back. My spouse is hell bent on putting her in kiddie prison which I dont agree with. When she was there she told me they were using profanity towards her. So whats the point of that if they are just going to show her that its ok to talk like that so now she cusses more. To me scare tatics dont work and definately are not a progression. I cant find my id so I cant go anywhere or even drive. I live on a military post so I cant even buy anything at the shopette or commissary. So I understand that things change for the better but it has to be a progression towards that like baby steps. My daugher right now is out in town I live in cc , because my spouse was picking on her and it was getting her really upset. He has my kids picking on her and making comments about beating her up. So in my personal life my progression is to diviorce him and get my daugher the help she needs. Kiddie prison is a problem My kids and spouse say that shes been engaging in well same sex relationships. There are kids that force kids into doing that in kiddie prison so why would he want to send her there. Same thing goes for adult prisons only its rape. So why isnt the prison system for rehabilition? Dont you think that getting raped and beaten is not the way for anyone to rehabilitate? No its not. So why does it seem that the system which was designed for rehabilitation is punishment? I see a pattern there of abuse. Its a deevolution to do that to people and even worse when its done to children. Its like abuse saying get em while their young.
 
I will be posting at least three introductory posts (to keep each one to a manageble length). One will focus on the FOUNDATIONS, things from this side of the veil (that is things that are usually considered science, math, philosophy, and history). This initial list will be the things I see as needed to further the "science of the web" from the Western scientific and philosophic polint-of-view.

FOUNDATIONS:
First, it must be based on the principle that "all things must be addressed". That is, it must have a base in metaphysics or "first philosophy" (per Aristotle) or "speculative philosophy" (per Whitehead).

Metaphysics, or Speculative Philosophy, "is the endeavour to frame a coherent, logical, necessary system of general ideas in terms of which every element of our experience can be interpreted. By this notion of ‘interpretation' I mean that everything of which we are conscious, as enjoyed, perceived, willed, or thought, shall have the character of a particular instance of the general scheme. . . . The true method of philosophical construction is to frame a scheme of ideas, the best that one can, and unflinchingly to explore the interpretation of experience in terms of that scheme".

Call this the METAPHYSICAL FOUNDATION.

Second, any coherent and logical system must assume the existence of some reality. The hypothecized reality may be seen as materialistic, idealistic, dualistic, or experiential. But this much is clear, what we experience or are conscious of may be bundles of connections we can remember, but they are created or caused by things external to that consciousness ot experiece.

Call this the REALISM FOUNDATION.

Third, being qua being is manifested in becoming. Every instance of becoming, every actual occasion or experience in any particular instance has its cause in either some thing in the actual world or the nature of the instance that is becoming. "According to the ontological ["nature of being"] principle there is nothing that floats into the world from nowhere," per Whitehead.

Call this the ONTOLOGICAL FOUNDATION.

Fourth, while there exists some absolute knowledge (knowledge that necessisarily must be true), by in large it is limited to logical tautologies, the basic mathematics, and ostensive definitions. Yes, if all mean are mortal and Socrates is a man, Socrates is mortal. Yes, 1+1=2. Yes, :) this is a smiley face. However, none of these kinds of knowledge are knowledge of that reality which we have postulated, the world.

Knowledge of the world is fragmentary, partial, and limited. And said knowledge is discovered via induction (abduction and inference to the best explanation being kinds of inductions). The conundrum (known as the "Problem of Induction") is that the knowledge can never be absolute. Therfore more powerful ways of induction (probabilities , possibilities, potentialities, and procilivities--see E.T. Jaynes, Heisenberg, Wigner, von Neumann, Wheeler, Shimony, Stapp, or any one of the many writiers on probability theory) have been developed.

Are these "ways" true or absolute. No, but then Goedel teaches us that any mathematics more complicated than arithmatic is not completely absolute. We use models and heuristics and approximations every day, why? They work.

Call this the EPISTEMOLOGICAL FOUNDATION.

Fifth, it must unify physics (like Kaku says, "one equation must give rise to everything"). There are a lot of contenders. I do not like relativity-based approaches (they deny free will and time). Nor do I like materialist quantum approaches (many-worlds is just so much like "it's turles all the way down"). Superstring could work, but I am very afraid that it will never even be theoretically testable (by that I mean I see no way to construct an experiment, now or ever, to falsify it or proove it sufficiently to my satisfaction). That leaves a quantum-based unification along the lines of Penrose's Twistor Theory or some equivalent Quantum-Loop Gravity approach or some Laughlinesque "phase transition approach" or something no one has ever (yet) dreamed of.

Anyway, the point is until relativity and quantum are at least notionally unifiable a science of the web, while "do-able" is not inclusive enough (to be a true science of the web it most also do matter/energy/information).

Call this the SCIENTIFIC FOUNDATION.

BOTTOM LINE: So we are trying to frame a coherent and logical system of genreal ideas (METAPHYSICAL FOUNDATION) dealing with reality (REALISM FOUNDATION) using an approach based on experience (ONTOLOGICAL FOUNDATION) and inductive reasoning (EPISTEMOLOGICAL FOUNDATION) and the principles of the physics (SCIENTIFIC FOUNDATION).

How does that work, you all?
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This is taking awhile, forgive me. But first, let me correct a mistake that was pointed out to me.

"Fifth, it must unify physics (like Kaku says, "one equation must give rise to everything"). There are a lot of contenders. I do not like relativity-based approaches (they deny free will and time). Nor do I like materialist quantum approaches (many-worlds is just so much like "it's turles all the way down"). Superstring could work, but I am very afraid that it will never even be theoretically testable (by that I mean I see no way to construct an experiment, now or ever, to falsify it or proove it sufficiently to my satisfaction). That leaves a quantum-based unification along the lines of Penrose's Twistor Theory or some equivalent Quantum-Loop Gravity approach or some Laughlinesque "phase transition approach" or something no one has ever (yet) dreamed of.

Anyway, the point is until relativity and quantum are at least notionally unifiable a science of the web, while "do-able" is not inclusive enough (to be a true science of the web it most also do matter/energy/information).

Call this the SCIENTIFIC FOUNDATION"

Is really not what I meant.

What we work on here must, insofar as it deals with subject "in the veil" (like logic, math, science, philosophy, and history) must not throw away the principles of those disciplines. That is claims of the ilk of "the laws of logic do not apply", or "thus the completeness of mathematics is shown", or "physics is at an end", or "philosophy cannot address the metaphysical", or "all of history is an illusion" cannot he considered actually believable without lot and lots of proof.

Similarly, "belief" is not the same as "knowledge" is not the same as "truth". Belief is a personal psychologocal holding of a premise or proposition to be true. Truth in the absolute sense is the fact that a premise or proposition is true, that is that a premise refers to an actual state-of-affairs. In this sense "2+2+4" is true and "the moon is only in the sky when I see it" is not. Knowledge is having a belief that refers to a tue premise or proposition.

A rather large "but" in the above is the case of some premise or proposition is only probably or possibly true. In the opinion of most philosophers of science or users of the scientific method, this is the case for the vast majority of what human beings call "knowledge". First, notice that statements of faith, like 'the Bible is the inerrant word of G!d" do not qualify as knowledge or true in this sense. This works equally well for statements of higher mathematics (see Goedel's Theorem), which cannot be deductively proven (meaning they are true in this and all universes as a matter of deductive logic). However, mathematic (and other scientific or sense claims) can be qualified by "under normal circumstances it is 90% or 95% or 99% true).

Call this the EPISTEMOLOGICAL FOUNDATION.

Tomorrow I shall move on the the PRINCIPLES OF SCIENTIFIC METHOD.

Pax et amore vincunt omnia. Radarmark
 
INTRODUCTION TO THE SCIENTIFIC METHODOne needs a template, a starting point for our science of the web (SOTW). As a first approximation, one can begin with what is known as the scientific method, what scientists and philosophers of science believe to be a description of how science is done. I am assuming we need some memory jogging on the subject of scientific method, so I will start with a short history. Then I will go on to list some of the historical descriptions before summing up and presenting a tentative heuristic of the scientific method.

HISTORY: Most of these individuals would identify the real pioneers of the scientific method to be the Arab Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen) and the Persian Ibn Sina (Avicenna) whose method was based on observation, experiment, mathematics, and publishing. Their work, published in the 1000s promulgated throughout the Arab world and influenced the work of the late scholastics Grosseteste and Roger Bacon, who in turn influenced Sir Francis Bacon who first considered induction as a key in the scientific method. In turn he influenced Rene Descartes and Sir Isaac Newton whose conceptions set the standard for the next two hundred years. In the nineteenth century Whewell and Mills formalized the scientific method as the hypothetical-deductive method. In the early 20th century Charles Sanders Peirce developed the pragmatic theory based on induction in repose to the European instrumentalist (later logical positivist) method. The Hempel and Popper models (the deductive-nomologic and falsifiability) were in many ways a refutation of Peirce. Things got a lot more confusing and complex with the publication of work by Hansen, Polanyi, Kuhn, Lakatos, Lauden, and Feyerabend beginning in the second half of the century. Recently with the work of catastrophe, chaos, complexity, and information theoretics has led to a renaissance of inductive and abductive thought and “inference to the best explanation” (see the work of Hanson, Lipton, and Psillos), as well as possibilitic or probabilistic approaches.


ALHAZEN: Alhazen’s method resembled modern scientific method and consisted of the following procedures:
  1. Testing and/or criticism of a hypothesis using experimentation
  2. Interpretation of data and formulation of a conclusion using mathematics
  3. The publication of the findings
BACON: Sir Francis Bacon added several dimensions:
  1. Facts cannot be collected from nature, but must be constituted by methodical procedures, which have to be put into practice by scientists in order to ascertain the empirical basis for inductive generalizations.
  2. His induction, founded on collection, comparison, and exclusion of factual qualities in things and their interior structure, proved to be a revolutionary achievement within natural philosophy, for which no example in classical antiquity existed.
  3. Bacon's method relied on experimental histories to eliminate alternative theories via post experimental deduction.
NEWTON: Both Bacon and Descartes wanted to provide a firm foundation for scientific thought that avoided the deceptions of the mind and senses. Bacon envisaged that foundation as essentially empirical, whereas Descartes provides a metaphysical foundation for knowledge. If there were any doubts about the direction in which scientific method would develop, they were set to rest by the success of Isaac Newton. Implicitly rejecting Descartes' emphasis on rationalism in favor of Bacon's empirical approach, he outlines his four "rules of reasoning":
  1. We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.
  2. Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.
  3. The qualities of bodies, which admit neither intension nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.
  4. In experimental philosophy we are to look upon propositions collected by general induction from phenomena as accurately or very nearly true, notwithstanding any contrary hypotheses that may be imagined, till such time as other phenomena occur, by which they may either be made more accurate, or liable to exceptions.
But Newton also left an admonition about a theory of everything: "To explain all nature is too difficult a task for any one man or even for any one age. 'Tis much better to do a little with certainty, and leave the rest for others that come after you, than to explain all things."

PEIRCE: The last big contribution came from Peirce who considered scientific method to be the method wherein inquiry regards itself as fallible and purposely tests itself and criticizes, corrects, and improves itself. Peirce held that slow, stumbling ratiocination can be dangerously inferior to instinct and traditional sentiment in practical matters, and that the scientific method is best suited to theoretical research,which in turn should not be trammeled by the other methods and practical ends; reason's "first rule" is that, in order to learn, one must desire to learn and, as a corollary, must not block the way of inquiry. This is captured in his “maxim of pragmatism”: “The study of philosophy consists, therefore, in reflexion, and pragmatism is that method of reflexion which is guided by constantly holding in view its purpose and the purpose of the ideas it analyzes, whether these ends be of the nature and uses of action or of thought. It will be seen that pragmatism is not a [world view] but is a method of reflexion having for its purpose to render ideas clear”. Two things must be noted here, first “reflexion” is Piece’s term referring to an introspective process of deep analytical thought. Secondly, Peirce identifies reflexion not with deductive, or foundationalistic (self-justifying), or coherentistic (justified heirachtically) thought, but with an advance to inductive thought he called abduction (see references to abduction, “inference to the best explanation” and the Nyaya school of Indian logic). Abductive reasoning has the following type of form:
The surprising fact, C, is observed;
But if A were true, C would be a matter of course,
Hence, there is reason to suspect that A is true.

Peirce's approach to the scientific method is that it is a three-phase dynamic of inquiry:
  1. Active, abductive genesis of theory, with no prior assurance of truth;
  2. Deductive application of the contingent theory so as to clarify its practical implications;
  3. Inductive testing and evaluation of the provisional theory's utility for the anticipation of future experience, in both senses: prediction and control.
CONTEMPORARY: As described earlier after Peirce the twentieth century saw an explosion of papers and theories about the scientific method, culminating in the Kuhn-Lakotos-Lauden-Polanyi-Feyerabend debates of the 60s and 70s. With the rise of catastrophe (see Rene Thom), chaos (see Edward Lorentz), and complexity (see Santa Fe Institute) theoretics, artificial intelligence, emergence science (see Ilya Prigogine, Stuart Kauffman and Gregory Bateson), as well as advances in possibilitic or probabilistic approaches (see Richard Jeffries, LJ Savage, Edwin Jaynes, Guilio D’Agostini) has led to a resurgence in inductive-abductive approach to scientific method (see N.R. Hansen, P Thagard, Ilkka Niiniluoto, G.J.M. Kruijff in addition to Hanson, Lipton, and Psillos).
The remaining thing to be done now is to create a tentative heuristic of the scientific method. Which will form the next post “PRINCIPLES”.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt, Radarmark
 
Part 2: PRINCIPLES of the "Science of the Web"

I am going to try something entirely new and blessedly old here. This "Science of the Web" idea is to create a co-operative wiki-philosophy with which to meld the seemingly contradictory notions of science and religious thought.

I will be posting at least three introductory posts (to keep each one to a manageble length). Two will focus on PRINCIPLES, call it a list of what is needed (per that Western scientific point-of-view) to create a scientific fundamentals, theories, laws, and methodology.

Now that I probably spent way too much time discussing the scinetific method. But it was necessary for these PRINCIPLES are a generalization of a currently accepted scientific method.
 
IGNORE THE PREVIOUS POST, I RAN OUT OF EDITING TIME.

I am going to try something entirely new and blessedly old here. This "Science of the Web" idea is to create a co-operative wiki-philosophy with which to meld the seemingly contradictory notions of science and religious thought.

I will be posting at least three introductory posts (to keep each one to a manageble length). Two will focus on PRINCIPLES, call it a list of what is needed (per that Western scientific point-of-view) to create a scientific fundamentals, theories, laws, and methodology.

Now that I probably spent way too much time discussing the scientific method. But it was necessary for these PRINCIPLES are a generalization of a currently accepted scientific method.

First, we need to develop a theory "constituted by methodical procedures, which have to be put into practice by scientists in order to ascertain the empirical basis for inductive generalizations" per Bacon. That is via whatever means necessary ("anything goes" per Feyerabend) we hypothecize a theory, using deduction, indiction, abduction, or "inference to the best explanation". Call this the PRINCIPLE OF HYPOTHESIS.

Second, per Peirce, we need to deductively analyze the hypothesis to ensure it is falsifiable (a non-falsisiable theory may be brilliant, beautiful, and elegant, but nevertheless pseudo-scientific), measureable (fully mathematical in the beast case, quantitative in the second best case, and qualitative in the worst case), and clarify the implications of the hypothesis via development of a theory. Call this the PRINCIPLE OF PRE-TEST ANALYSIS (this analysis may be probabilistic and abductive per Psillos).

Third, we need to (per Ibn al-Haytham) test the hypothesis using experimentation. The development of the test must focus on falsifying the hypothesis. The experiment must be objective, repeatable, and measureable insofar as possible (work arounds do exist to address any but not all of these characteristics). Call this the PRINCIPLE OF EXPERIMENTATION.


Fourth, we must "look upon propositions collected by general induction from phenomena as accurately or very nearly true, notwithstanding any contrary hypotheses that may be imagined, till such time as other phenomena occur, by which they may either be made more accurate, or liable to exceptions" per Newton. This is essentially the same as Peirce's point 4 analyze the utility of the hypothesis and theory for the anticipation of future experience, in both senses: prediction and control, using Bacon's concept of experimental histories to eliminate alternative theories during this post experimental deduction.

This is where the results of a valid experiment are used to re-analyze the hypothesis and theory (the general proceedure is returning to PRE-TEST ANALYSIS to re-experiment to fill out the knowledge). Call this the PRINCIPLE OF POST-TEST ANALYSIS (this analysis may be probabilistic and abductive per Psillos).


Obviously, the fifth step is to publish.


In our case, based on our experiences with the web, we propose to develop hypotheses about the nature of the web and its relationship to the veil (PRINCIPLE OF HYPOTHESIS). We assess the hypothesis or a theory in terms of falsifiability, measureablity, repeatability, and objectivity. In our case this will primarily focus on falsifiability and qualitative measures due to the nature of the subject (PRINCIPLE OF PRE-TEST ANALYSIS. Next we plan for and perform the experiments (PRINCIPLE OF EXPERIMENTATION). Finally we re-analyze the data from the experiment (PRINCIPLE OF POST-TEST ANALYSIS) to see if the hypothesis or theory is of utility, yeilds anything new, and makes sense(probabilistically and abductively per Psillos).



Pax et amore omnia vincunt. Radarmark
 
Okay, now for the third (or is it really the tenth?:rolleyes:) post. The ASSUMPTIONS. What are they assumptions about? What in our experience of the spiritual. If the veil is where we live in the Kosmos, in this four dimensional (or is it a 10 or 11 or 26 dimensional world?:p) it is a projection of sorts (see Plato's "The Cave") from a deeper realm, the web which lays behind the veil (and which may be the stuff the veil is projected onto).

Sometimes (in my experience) an individual can transcend or go beyond this veil to glimpse the web. I believe this is what mystics and the founders of all religious schools have experienced and point to (see the works of Frithjof Schuoun, for example).

So the ASSUMPTIONS are how we (I use “we” because--if I ever get anyone to read this and comment back--the intention is to create a wiki philosophy called Science of the Web or SOTW, we scientific sorts just love initials) see, categorize, think about, and toss around those peak experiences to judge their validity. No real judgment there (like good or bad), rather it is a logical analysis (in the veil) of the experience of the web to determine if it is real (not in a 4-10-11-26 dimensional sense, but in the sense of "is it a good data point that can be considered one of a set of good data points"). Can the experience be said to grok or resonate with all the rest that we believe, think or know.

First of all (per my personal feelings put out above), a peak experience of the web that was triumphalist or exclusionist would fail the test of repeatability. If one must believe the approach (specific religious belief, esoteric and exoteric) will one day be the "One and Only True World Religion", that pretty well makes the experience non-universal. See, if the assumption is that one must be a Hindu or a Zen Buddhist or (name your poison here) to experience it, it cannot be even inter-subjectively objective--it cannot be a belief that can correspond to the state-of-affairs that it is universal. Call this the ASSUMPTION OF INCLUSIVITY.:eek:

The collection peak experiences would have to be a "living practice"... That is like mathematics (which is not really a science IMHO because after Gödel’s refutation of Hilbert's Programme--it’s a math thing you can look up) it is based on a firm foundation (arithmetic plays the role of the experiences) but to "get beyond" one must "pop up" one level (see Gödel’s Theorem) where what you are dealing with is not provable within the level on faith. Yessuree, you heard it here, using any math higher than arithmetic is an act of faith, like induction. But reapplying this notion again and again and again in different ways to different experiences, one would logically expect (and this could be wrong) a progression, a change. Like how math grew from arithmetic to algebra to the calculus to, say, tensor, spinor and twistor analysis (just fancy high-level maths engineers used to use used primarily by physicists nowadays). So the commentary (or grouping) of experiences will change (note here, I am a Whiteheadean, being and relationships are abstraction from the reality of becoming) over time (perhaps generating an emergent nature?). Call this the ASSUMPTION OF EVOLUTION.:cool:

The actual experiences are experiences an entity (one of us) has in the web (“gone over”) or at the web-veil interface (dualistic mystical experience). Be they in zazen, yoga, meditation, prayer, relexion, or whatever. It could be something as simple as an “experimental plan” saying "Do the Blue Cliff technique 5" and this will happen, do the "Shiva Vigyama Upanishad Method 36" and this will happen. Or it could be as complex as “Inner Castle” or “The Testimony of a Soul”. Call this the ASSUMPTION OF EXPERIMENTATION.:confused:

The deconstruction of those experiences, if you will, mappings of chunks of the experience onto otherwise things believed is the final phase of the process. This would include (since these will all be personal, subjective experiences) firs-person accounts. They could also be second person accounts (“gee, Ghandiji experienced X when he did Y”) where the authority of the original source is indisputable (or close to it). They could also be meta-maps of experiences, that is, someone interweaving an experience of the web with beliefs about the web-veil interface, the veil, or experiences in the veil. Finally, the deconstruction could be a Quakerly pondering of clearness (kinda a group analysis of the verification of the experience or a Shamanistic brainstorming of the context (sorta a discussion, with lots of pauses, of the validity of the experience in light of other factors). Call this the PRINCIPLE OF VALIDATION.:D

Pax et amore omnia vincunt. Radarmark
 
A QUICK SUMMARY
This is a kind of summary of the entire thread “Science of the Web” (SOTW). What is the underlying premise? That it is possible (in my personal opinion highly likely) that the “normal” everyday world we seem to inhabit is illusory. At the core of our experience is something radically different, a mental and spiritual existence not of this everyday world. It is written about in the great works of mysticism, it forms the basis of the teachings of spiritual leaders. Call it “the Cave Wall”, “the Great Beyond”, “The Formless”, “Nirvana”, “Samsara”, “The Godhead”… all of these terms (and so many others point to this “Web of Relationness”).
The Web is then a more basic, a meta-reality (notice there is no implication of duality, non-duality, or any kind of supervening stuff). And this reality is a projection onto the Web that does not correspond to, and veils the direct experience of the Web. The SOTW is an attempt to structure an objective way to study and discuss the reality (Veil), the meta-reality (Web), and where they meet (interface). Insofar as possible the approach will be objective, but obviously what is being dealt with is subjective (experiences not of this world must be either in another world or in our own consciousness). So the process is what is called in Bayesian probability theory “intersubjective”, the communication of subjective bits of data out of which one can construct other subjective inputs which can be built into an objective process (for a discussion see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3110420.

The first foundational concept must be to make SOTW as brad in context as possible, to assume the process will be METAPHYSICAL. Metaphysics, or First Philosophy or Speculative Philosophy, "is the endeavor to frame a coherent, logical, necessary system of general ideas in terms of which every element of our experience can be interpreted".

Secondly (as stated in the introduction), SOTW is dealing with something that exists (experiential). One can then say the second foundational concept is REALITY.

The third foundational notion is related to and an extension of the first two. The reality is a reflection of the metaphysics and SOTW studies “beings as beings”, those beings being our experience of the web which is ONTOLOGICAL (the study of being as being).

The fourth foundational notion is that SOTW is EPISTEMOLOGICAL. It deals with knowledge (indeed, tries to lead to knowledge) and its components—actual events, belief, and ways to facilitate knowledge (deduction, induction, abduction. inference, experience).

So we are trying to frame a coherent and logical system of general ideas (METAPHYSICAL FOUNDATION) dealing with reality (REALISM FOUNDATION) using an approach based on experience (ONTOLOGICAL FOUNDATION) and inductive reasoning (EPISTEMOLOGICAL FOUNDATION).

Next one needs to develop some principles of the SOTW, roughly concepts of how one proceeds. Because of the parallel to the typical “scientific method”, these principles look a lot like them.
First, one needs to develop a theory "constituted by methodical procedures, which have to be put into practice by scientists in order to ascertain the empirical basis for inductive generalizations.” So the first step in SOTW is HYPOTHESIS.

Second, one must assess the hypothesis to ensure it is falsifiable (a non-falsifiable theory may be brilliant, beautiful, and elegant, but nevertheless pseudo-scientific), measureable (fully mathematical in the beast case, quantitative in the second best case, and qualitative in the worst case), and clarify the implications of the hypothesis via development of a theory. This is PRE-TEST ASSESSMENT and does not have to be strictly mathematical and may be abductive and probabilistic.

Third, one needs to test the hypothesis by experimenting. EXPERIMENTATION must be objective, repeatable, and measureable insofar as possible (work a-rounds do exist to address any but not all of these characteristics).

Fourth, we must examine the data to ensure histories, alternatives, and falsification has been addressed. In this POST-TEST ANALYSIS, the utility of the hypothesis and theory for anticipating (predicting) future experience and controlling the expected results is developed.

All the above being done, the task is then to re-integrate the information with our initial concepts of the universe (METAPHYSICAL, REAL, ONTOLOGICAL, and EPISTEMOLOGICAL).
To accomplish this we need some assumptions about what will be found.

A peak experience of the web (the results of the process) must correspond to a state-of-affairs, an experience which is universal (INCLISIVITY), insofar as possible it must be open to all human beings.

The collection peak experiences would have to be a "living practice"... the results would have to be, themselves a process (EVOLUTION).

The actual experiences are experiences an entity (one of us) has in the web (“gone over”) or at the web-veil interface (dualistic mystical experience). And this experience is part of the aforementioned controlling effort (SCIENTIFIC METHOD).

The deconstruction of those experiences, if you will, mappings of chunks of the experience onto otherwise things believed is the final phase of the process. If you will, a VALIDATION.
So we expect the outcomes of the SOTW to be inclusive, evolving, structured, and capable of validation.

Pax etamore omnia vincunt
 
Now I can get down to business.

When I enter the silence (we orthodox Quakers, usually called "liberal" have silent worship) this is what I do. First, concentrate on the Inner Light (or one's breath) as a technique to clear the air and focus on the now.

Then I usually "hold my Meeting in the light". Kind of a hands-on thing where I focus on everyone's thought passing through me a as a reed or flute or perceive my hands as giant things holding our Meeting Room. This clears out the mad monkey mind or ego (kind of hard to be self-centered when one has made oneself an empty reed).

At this point I usually use an old native trick of plucking "self" from my heart cavity and discarding it. I do this with actual phyusical motion.

Having gone beyond time and self this is where I am "One with the Light". This is usually a non-dual experience--I am the Light and the Light is me. We use the term "Centering", because one comes to the center or core of one's existaence.

I never know what will happen next. Sometimes my eyes are open and I see colored patterns replace the people's faces against the white wall. Sometimes my eyes are shut and I see fractals and swirls of sparks or leaves or whatever.

At some point the living Christ puts something in my mind ("speaks to me") and that something plays out. No, I do not think about it, I let it happen. Like I see a passed elder who seemed a bit cranky calling be (actually waving me up to) from the high peak of a house. At some point the vision or speaking ceaseth.

Then I go over what was revealed, see if there is ego or thought in it (I always test to make sure it is pure and uncontaminated). Then I ponder what it means (think about it) and see if there is objective content ("does G!d want me to share this with the Meeting?").

If so I rise and testify. Sometimes the testimony of others enters and the experience is "keyed" on thie ministry, sometimes others "key" on mine. Sometime no one ever speaks and we just sit happily united in Silence.

The cycle may be repeated.

The keys are "centering", "seeing", and "ministry" (and "reflexion" if someone has spoken). Centering is getting out of the Web. Seeing may be looking at the Web-Veil interface (ususally dualitstic consciousness like "there is the Divine, let me watch") or actual union (non-dual). Ministry is part of the analysis or recollection (one may or may not speak).

Anyone have similar stories?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.
 
Let me go over my three magic words here:

daats'i -- roughly Navajo for "maybe" (per dictionary) but used colloquially to mean "yes", "no", "perhaps", "possibly" and all situations in-between. Meaning "the world is not certain".

the lack of a work for time in Hopi -- "when" (future sense of now) "hisat", "then" (past sense of "now") "paasat", "now" "yaasat". You would think "time" to be "sat" it isn't... the closest is "pahanatewa" which literally means "white man's sun" or "clocktime".

"grok" -- Martian for "drink" or "thou art G!d".

Put them altogether and you might be able to get a grasp of what I want to do here.

See, all the physics stuff and liguistics stuff and philosophical stuff is just stuff. What is important is the metaphysic (or first philosophy or speculative philosophy) behind it.

Amit Goswami has it right. Western science is scientistic and materialistic. There is no room for speculative thought. BUT BY LIMITING DISCUSSION IN JUST THAT WAY IT IS MAKING THE FOLLOWING METAPHYSICAL JUDGEMENTS:

1) the universe is material only, mass and energy are all that exist (which means)
2) all consciousness is bogus, technically an epi-phenomenon (it is maya caused by chemical and electrical phenomena in the brain but have no impact outside of thought) which means
3) there is no free will, no freedom of choice, no freedom of action
4) sense experiences and their logico-mathematical manipulation are the only meaningful things, called positivism or empiricism, (therefore)
5) emotions, intuition, aethetics, morals, religion -- anything not directly traceable to a sense experience has no meaning (saying love or G!d or good or beautiful should be as meaningless as baby gibberish to a true believer), hence
6) there is no truth, everything is equally valid in reation to perception and consideration, called relativism (I suffer from this, but have calmed it down to "soft relativism", that there are some things which we just cannot know or know are true or false), hence--
7) "true understanding" is reported in therms that either prevent anyone "not of the circle" from having a meaningful opinion ("we are the experts in nuclear power, we need it, and we say the risks are worth it, public opinion be damned") or intentionally hiding the fact that the Emperor Has No Clothes behind obscure references or artifacts (called obsurationism)
8) showing (via one or all of there ways) that the world will always get better (panglossian optimism) or it is impossible for the world to get any better (panglossian pessimism) based on nothing but a lot of words usually through
9) using a lot of scientific words to disparage other beliefs which are actually valid instances of skepticism, called pseudoskepticism, and (finally, but I amy add more later)
10) thinking that any thing can be reduced to its component parts and explained in terms of their mechanical or instrumental or some other scientific parts (thus not allowing the notion of real systems engineering or emergence theory).

AH HA! Take that fellow scientists. Any of you on this site can repond.
 
Now for some background. Western Philosophy is dominated by scientific materialism, the belief that the physical universe as defined by the sciences is all that exists. This is roughly the definition William James and Alfred Whitehead originated early in the XXth century. But it would be a mistake to think they were believers in scientific materialism. Far from it, they originated the term to point out what was lacking in the emerging philosophy of (yet to be named) logical positivism and analytics.

James, as a Doctor and a Psychologist, and Whitehead, as an Educator and Mathematician, insisted the mental and the rational were being surrendered to the physical and empirical and opposed the advent of this post-modernism with all their intellectual capital.

Thus the American Schools of Pragmatism and Organism were founded. The key to both is a blending of the physical and ideal which Descartes had separated (in Cartesian dualism) and the empirical (radical Machianism) and the rational (radical Russelianism). Let us call this larger school "process" or "processual" philosophy. In general Pragmatists of all bents (Pierce, James, Schiller Dewey, Lewis, Mead, Quine, Laudan, & Rorty) as well as Bergson and Whitehead can all be considered processual.

The essential shared characteristics are a strong belief in both physical and mental reality, in both observation and logic (including inferential), and the role of experience and intuition (rational thought beyond logic).

All three of these foundational beliefs run contrary to scientific materialism. "Hard" scientific materialists believe that mental reality is a mere epiphenomenon of physical reality (a kind of illusion, a reverse maya). Likewise, observation trumps logic (at least non-deductive logic), taken to extremes in deconstructionist post-modernism. Experience and intuition are to be down-played or couched in proper Machian terms, as Popper and Einstein did.

Whitehead pointed out that "the main evidence that a methodology is worn out comes when progress within it no longer deals with the main issues". On face value this is a pretty damning point for modern philosophy stuck as it is as an adjunct to science. He also noted "the science of the future depends for its ready progress upon the antecedent elucidation of hypothetical complexities of connection, as of yet unobserved". What he means is that while we collect geometrically more data in science, we generate a pretty stagnant number of new big ideas and hypotheses. So we are stuck with old concepts dictating what data is collected and (more to the point) how that data is to be interpreted. This is nowhere more clear than in physics.

The problem, IMHO, lays with the virtual dictatorship of scientific materialism and its terrible twins--physical monism and empirical hegemony.

Panta Rhei! (Everything Flows!)
 
From the beginning (pre-Socrates in Western culture, pre-Buddic in South Asian, and pre-Kong Fuzi in Chinese) there have been two basic schools of philosophy: the idealists and the materialists. The idealists believe in the primacy of consciousness (thought, ideas). The materialists believe in the primacy of matter (energy, concrete things). The idealists would include Plato, Gaudapada, and Wang Yang-Ming. Materialists would include Epicurius, Brihaspati, and Xun Si.

Either way (the world as unchanging mind or changeless substance), idealistic or materialistic monism, "reality" is defined as something outside of our sense of self, independent of the nexus of time and transition we see surrounding ourselves. We are either: a mind that "has forgotten itself", a single mind "beyond our understanding", a single material organism "imagining it thinks", or part of a collective coral-like organism "beyond our experience".

The key thing missing from the view of either idealism or materialism or individual versus society is what we see and experience continuously, all the time, change. An unchanging mind or a changeless substance is an abstraction from the concrete reality of what we experience--change. Change in perception ("well, it looks like an ellipse, but I know it is circular"), change in spacetime ("it was there then but is here now"), change in relexion ("I thought I was right but now I can prove I just do not know").

And what is it that changes? Not the ideal concepts of a Platonic World or the ideal material of Einstein's block universe... what changes are our experiences. Those little bits of ourselves that define the actual occasions we are in, one after another.

This is what Heraclitus wrote about, the Sakymuni Buddha called the Middle Way, and both Laotzi and Chuangtzi pointed at. It is what the Pragmatist, Neo-pragmatist, Vitalist, and Process Philosophers of the IXXth-XXIst centuries have come to define as "a different approach to philosophy".

I just call it philosophy, I just call it common-sense, I just call it experience.

Panta Rhei!
Everything Flows
 
Let me try to begin this on a different tack. 1) Reality exists. 2) The Kosmos is everything that exists physically and mentally (matter, energy, thought, consciousness, and anything else with physical or mental existence). 3) What I define as myself is an on-going series of experiences. 4) In terms of these experiences there are two regions of the Kosmos—myself and that which is not myself. 5) A lot of things I experience in the Kosmos share characteristics with myself (“human beings”). 6) One of the things that differentiate human beings (including myself) from the rest of the Kosmos I experience is a mental ability qualitatively different from my other experiences. 7) To be all that I can be this consciousness compels me to create mental models to make sense of reality. 8) The most general kind of mental models are those about knowledge and wisdom itself, called philosophy. 9) In philosophy, metaphysics or “first philosophy” or “speculative philosophy”, modeling the ultimate, most basic, most general principles to explain the nature of reality as such with a methodology of description and dispassionate reasoning and criticism. 10) All other forms of mentality or consciousness or thought are less abstract and (in some sense) dependent upon this first philosophy. 11) This first philosophy should be congruent with one’s sense of life and is “the endeavor to frame a coherent, logical, necessary system of general ideas in terms of which every element of our experience can be interpreted”.
 
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