Working for Money

[ciel_perdy]

On the Mark of the Beast thread, discussion inevitabley moved onto discussion about NOT working for money, because of the relevance between what Jesus taught, and how people will need to live IF there comes a time when you can no longer buy or sell without taking a mark in the hand or forehead.


Some background is that I kept hammering on about Jesus teaching that man cannot serve God and Money at the same time. This teaching comes from Matthew 6:24. Jesus says, ''No man can serve two masters, he will love one and hate the other, you cannot serve God and Mammon''. (Mammon basically means money and all that it can buy. Dream responded by saying that he has practical problems this teaching, though he said something about me at least conveying what Jesus literaly meant. To which I responded with:

Well, Jesus did say it, and he was pretty clear, and literal. His disciples live according to this teachings. I don't understand why Jesus and his disciples obeyed this teaching/principle, yet Christians today fight tooth and nail against doing so? There may be many 'practical considerations' that one can come up with as excuses for stepping out and obeying in faith what Jesus taught, but don't you think Jesus also knew about these kinds of things before he taught it? If you will, what practical considerations do you have?

And Dream responded with:

Maybe we have a misunderstanding of what you are talking about. I understand that when you work you are producing. When you don't work, you are consuming. In order for someone to consume, somebody has to work -- in the human way of thinking. I don't know if you accept the things Paul writes, but he says "If any one will not work, let him not eat." and "Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work in quietness and to earn their own living."

Perhaps Jesus isn't saying what you are saying he is saying, or perhaps there is some sort of contradiction here.

I thought it was clear what I was talking about. Jesus taught man can not work for money and God at the same time. They are both two mutually exclusive motivations, love and greed.

Don't you think if everyone worked out of the motivation of love for their brothers, sisters and God, that we would still 'produce'? You see, production can either be motivated by greed or by love. The funny thing is, people SHOULD do a better job, be more inspired, and work harder, when they are doing it out of love, and not just because they HAVE to get money in order to live. Of course, the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus taught about does NOT produce money. Why would we need it if everyone shared, and worked out of love?

Jesus does not adovcate living a selfish life, living off the hard work of others. He taught for people to live a life of love and service, teaching others about his Kingdom, looking after the poor, sick, naked people, just generally building a world of love. I believe people should work hard, but, like Jesus, I believe people cannot work hard for God and Mammon. They have to choose which one they love, and which one they hate.

I accept the teachings of Paul, if they don't contradict what Christ taught. The verse about not eating if you don't work, doesn't even mention money. Paul was talking to communities of Christians. If someone wasn't doing the work of God, being lazy around the commune, then why should they eat? The Kingdom of God, and all it's blessings are for people who WANT to be a part of it. Paul also taught the OT thought about ''don't muzzle the ox that treads the corn''. I don't see that second verse you mention promoting working for money. The closest we get is ''earn a living''. Which to me (in light of what Jesus taught) simply means pretty much the same as the previous thought, ''if you don't work, you won't eat''.

No, there is no contradiction. What is not clear about, ''no man can serve two masters, either he will love one and hate the other, hold to one and despise the other, you cannot serve both God and Mammon''? Obviously he is saying you have to choose which you give your time too, and the one you give your time to is the one you love and serve.

In light that he himself didn't work for money, he called his disciples to forsake their jobs and to follow him, and taught us to live by faith like the birds and the flowers, then I think it's fairly clear that he meant what he said.

We will have faith in money or in God to provide for us. It's interesting that probably the most lasting contribution that Babylon gave us was MONEY. Paul taught that the love of money (greed) is the root of all evil. Jesus taught that the best way to chop down this tree, at it's root, is to STOP working for money. When we stop working for money and live by faith in God's provision IF we work for love, then we have the time to do the things that are really important, like showing love to others, and building a new world of love.

Oh, one last thought. Not only would production INCREASE if people worked for love, but anything that was 'produced' goods, roads, buildings, cars etc, would actually be built to LAST, and we wouldn't take short cuts, for quick profit, leading to the destruction of the planet, and resulting in the deaths of the poor, all to add the lovely, '0's to the bank account.

 

[radarmark]

Like anarchism, this could work in a perfect world. The Spanish anarchists tried, the Levellers tried, other anarchists, and other communalists have tried many times (many of which were spiritual medieval communes or in the pattern of Harmony). The problem is that governments do not like them nor do most Religions (meaning organized churches). The communes of New Mexico and California faded into nothing. For the reaon of their strong faith and non-centralism the Hutterites (a German Anabaptist traditional peace church) have been successful at this sort of behavior.

I personally believe that we need to remain engaged in society with all of its problems and challenges. That is why I chose the Quaker Way. Most of us work for or out of love, or at least we channel a goodly amount back into the world. But then working for money to help others does not really meet the criteria outlined in the first post.

 

[Dream]

Ciel Perdy, I thought you were talking about not accepting money at all.

It sounds like working is ok with you if its to provide for a family or do some other charity work, and it sounds like using currency is ok with you. You're thinking that its the love for currency that is a problem. I'm sort of similar. I think the problem is worrying too much about having money down the road and thus getting excessive with it. You've got to realize that you can't take it with you, and you don't know what's going to happen to it after you're gone. "18 I hated all my toil in which I had toiled under the sun, seeing that I must leave it to the man who will come after me; 19 and who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? " (Ecclesiastes 2)

No, there is no contradiction. What is not clear about, ''no man can serve two masters, either he will love one and hate the other, hold to one and despise the other, you cannot serve both God and Mammon''? Obviously he is saying you have to choose which you give your time too, and the one you give your time to is the one you love and serve.

There's also Luke 12:13-22. A man asks Jesus to force his brother to share the family's inheritance. In response Jesus tells the parable of the rich guy who is so obsessed with accumulating wealth that he decides to add storage facilities to hold all of it. God declares this man a fool and says his life would be taken. (Its got a similar feel to the Nebuchadnezzar story.) Jesus then tells his disciples "Therefore I say unto you, Be not anxious for your life."

Problems with too much money can aggravate and prolong familial problems. For example a family might, 'for the sake of its children', focus on preserving the family's position in society and the family's income. Unfortunately, the children perceive this the wrong way. This emphasis grows in succeeding generations and becomes more important than dealing with family issues. Ultimately there's lots of pressure to hide problems instead of dealing with them.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

One of my friends is a self-made millionaire. He is married, has one child, and he has one of the most dysfunctional families I have ever seen. His son is really messed up. Most people would say my friend is successful. I say he is not successful at all.

 

[ciel_perdy]

Ciel Perdy, I thought you were talking about not accepting money at all.

It sounds like working is ok with you if its to provide for a family or do some other charity work, and it sounds like using currency is ok with you. You're thinking that its the love for currency that is a problem. I'm sort of similar. I think the problem is worrying too much about having money down the road and thus getting excessive with it.

Hi NCOT,

I am not sure where you got the idea that I was promoting not accepting money at all. Perhaps you cut and paste the relevant text that caused this confusion for you. The closest thing I said, that could explain what you thought I was meaning, is my reference to the mark of the beast, where at some point I believe no on will be able to buy or sell without it. Basically, one will simply not be able to USE money.

Using currency is ok with me, though obviously it's not preferable. It would be better if everyone shared. Jesus and his disciples used money, but they didn't work for it. It's a bit like being IN the world, but not OF the world. Of course the love of money IS the problem, which is basically greed. For me though, from reading about what Jesus taught, it isn't really about getting anxious about money and thus getting excessive with it, (though not taking anxious thought plays into it), but really what Jesus was trying to get people to see is that GOD is more than capable of feeding us, clothing us, providing all our needs, IF we would only learn to hear his voice, and live a life of love and service and sharing with others. He was trying to get us to see, that if we don't have faith in God, then our faith will be in money, and all that money can buy, to provide for our needs. Money (greed) is the antithesis (hope that's the right word) or faith in God (love).

We all can see what terrible things have been done for and in the name of money and profit. A monetary system, same as a barter system simply does not work. There will always be rich, poor, crappy products, short-cuts, greedy, lazy, selfish people, trying to get what they want, despite what it does to the world and to others. In the Kingdom of Heaven (which is not pie-in-the-sky, but something we are supposed to be building here and now) things would be amazingly different. People would share, resources would be used wisely, we wouldn't need half of the crap we have produced for the sake of making money, and pointless products that suck our time. Everything would be revolutionized.

This world is possible, and I think it pays for people to know that what Jesus taught is where we are heading towards, whether you go willing or kicking and screaming. The sad thing is that those who do go kicking and screaming, will inevitably lock themselves out of this new world, because they don't want to change their attitudes.

I also think that it pays for people to all be honest and admit that the ONLY reason why we don't have this world right now, is because people simply don't WANT it.

I personally don't believe that the present world will ever get to be the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't see the system changing. However, I do believe that at some point in the future God's Kingdom will come and smash all these kingdoms of man to pieces and we will rebuild this earth. THIS may sound like pie-in-the-sky to a lot of people but so be it.

The point I am trying to make is, that which is similar to the Matrix. The whole world may not wake up and start following God, working for love and not money, but if I KNOW the truth about how the world should be and could be, I have a responsibility to live (or attempt to live it out) regardless of whether anyone else ever follows me in doing so. The truth is the truth even if the rest of the world says it's a lie.

So, which pill should we take, the red or the blue? One leads to answers and truth, the other only numbs us again to the illusion and delusion that is working for money and not living by faith in God.

 

[ciel_perdy]

I personally believe that we need to remain engaged in society with all of its problems and challenges. That is why I chose the Quaker Way. Most of us work for or out of love, or at least we channel a goodly amount back into the world. But then working for money to help others does not really meet the criteria outlined in the first post.

I agree with the need to remain engaged in society in order to help solve it's problems and challenges. However, Jesus taught his disciples to be IN the world but not OF it. This means, relate but don't do the same things you're trying to challenge. He hanged out with the prostitutes, but he didn't sleep around, he spent time with the tax collectors, but he didn't extort money from people. Similarly, if as Christians we are trying to show the Kingdom of Heaven and challenge greed, then it's best done by not working for the very thing that pulls us away from God, love and his Kingdom, i.e. money.

Jesus wasn't a recluse either. He was always busy teachings, healing, challenging the lies of religion and government. He was actively involved in trying to expose the problems of the world and us as individuals, at the same time as show us the solution.

People often say they work for money in order to help others, but really the help they give is only after they have looked after themselves and their near and dear ones.

Jesus didn't say, ''get a job work for money and then help others''. He said, ''stop working for money, because then you can work for God and help others''.

Money (greed) is the cause of the problems is the world. Any solution the problems that we face that doesn't deal with mans addiction and love for money and all that it can buy, really will not bring any everlasting change.

 

[Dream]

This was in reponse to Jesus teaching us NOT to work for money. Well, Jesus did say it, and he was pretty clear, and literal.

People often say they work for money in order to help others, but really the help they give is only after they have looked after themselves and their near and dear ones.

Jesus didn't say, ''get a job work for money and then help others''. He said, ''stop working for money, because then you can work for God and help others''.

I am not sure where you got the idea that I was promoting not accepting money at all. Perhaps you cut and paste the relevant text that caused this confusion for you.

It was a misunderstanding, and its sufficient that you did not mean it the way I thought that you did. You meant that the goal of our work shouldn't be to accumulate wealth and to instead trust God for tomorrow's wealth. Ideally money should not be necessary, but things are so bad that it is forced upon you. Is that right?

I personally don't believe that the present world will ever get to be the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't see the system changing. However, I do believe that at some point in the future God's Kingdom will come and smash all these kingdoms of man to pieces and we will rebuild this earth. THIS may sound like pie-in-the-sky to a lot of people but so be it.

You may not see it in your lifetime, but you're still expected to work towards making it possible by loving people, being brave and so forth. Things take time. The world is like a huge wooden house that is on a crooked foundation. If you jack up the foundation quickly, the house will break and fall apart from stress; but if you slowly and carefully jack it giving it time to settle you'll achieve a level foundation and strengthen the house. We're the house and can't change very quickly without breaking. Over time as the foundation is righted we adjust.

 

[Thomas]

"For the labourer is worthy of his hire." Luke 10:7

I don't think Jesus was condemning money at all, as the saying goes 'the love of money is the root of all evil' — not money as such.

In fact Jesus endorses the financial structures of His day — the payment of taxes, the giving of alms — what He condemned is the social division between rich and poor, and the hypocrisy of the rich.

God bless

Thomas

 

[wil]

I think in general we'll find some disdain for folks that don't 'earn' a living. After all we have to do it, and misery loves company. It pisses us off that someone can find a way around the rat race and when we can't. The last time I hitched across the country I saw more 'fingers' than I've ever seen....my only conclusion was that they must not have been able to stand it, that I was expressing my freedom to travel in such a manner.

In my time I've met a number of people who lived without a 'job' they performed work for folks on a 'love offering' basis and a few others who litterally traveled in prayer, as wondering monks of sorts and lived on the donations and love from others, I can honor these choices.

But if someone is not having a job and living in shelters and collecting food stamps, welfare or otherwise on the dole and is capable of work, I've really got no quarter for that.

Last thought, I am big on if you aren't harming others or taking from others, I'd like to leave you to your way of belief and living, however I don't see how anyone has any right to impose their way of living on me either. And me, unless I can find a money tree that provides me a way to live in the standard I've become acustomed to, I'm afraid I'm not all that interested....tis a big world, I like to travel, and don't mind dives, and couch surfing, but also enjoy thoroughly fine food, resorts and decadance.

 

[radarmark]

Well, now, we (my Quaker Meeting) has several people who live off the grid because they do not wish to pay into the Department of Defense. We are talking bartering or working as farmers (helpers, actually). Several were Amish Bretheren (another Historical Peace Church) who needed to get into the twentieth century during the War in Vietnam, so became Quakers. Historically, we all work out of love, leave as small a brown-or-carbon footprint as possible, and do not take care of ourselves to an extent to harm others before we share the wealth. While we no longer speak plainly, we still live plainly. I think, ceil perdy, now that I understand your ideas, they are quite Quakerly. Fact is, we believe (or some of us, not much agreement and no dogma) that the parousia never stopped. In the earliest wrings of Quakers you will find many a reference to the fact that we do "live in the Kingdom" (but, being a grouping of mystics, this is very very difficult to explain to someone outside).

Anyway, ceil perdy, welcome and good luck on your voyage!

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.