A Cup Of Tea
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I might be if I knew what I was disagreeing with.
Is your position that society will cease to function if there are no laws against nudity?
Why Muslims Must Follow the Sunna As Well As the Quran
- Thread starter Abdullah
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Any specific error message?
they got punished for illegal sexual intercourse; not rape!!!!
the women just said 'rape' trying to get off the punishment but consensual zina was unequivocally established
you'd rather stop reading my posts than those anti-Islam nazi hate sites that will give you the real truth about islam eh???
yes thats right the Quran has whole of it as sunnah is an extension of the Quran [as explained in OP]
if Quran is left for leymen to interpret then there will be million different interpretations dont you see sis?; people will be following their desires deliberately or inadvertantly, politicans will be interpreting according to their boss, mr president etc etc so really we all have to follow the Prophetic interpretation:
Sis, see the 'two kinds of interpretations'; chapter:
http://ccm-inc.org/oldsite/iqra/articles/authsun/chap1.html
and here is a verse that refers to Prophets interpetation:
In the early days of his Prophethood, when the Holy Prophet () received the verses of the Holy Qur’ân revealed to him, he used to recite the same simultaneously, lest he should forget them. It was a strenuous exercise for him, because he felt it was much too difficult to listen to the revelation, to understand it correctly, and to learn it by heart, all at the same time. Allâh Almighty relieved him from this burden when He revealed the following verses of the Holy Qur’ân:
Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (75:16-19)
In the last sentence, Allâh Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet () to explain the verses of the Holy Qur’ân to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Qur’ân itself. It is not the Holy Qur’ân. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Therefore, it should necessarily be in some other form, distinct from the words of the Holy Book. And this is exactly what is meant by the “unrecited revelation.” But the two kinds of revelation, though different in their form, are both revealed to the Holy Prophet (); both are from Allâh; and both are to be believed and obeyed by the Muslims.
and one that says his role is to explain the Quran to us:
And We sent down towards you the Advice (i.e. the Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down to them, and so that they may ponder. (16:44)
Abdullah, thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions and my apologies for taking so long to reply to you as well.
If Hadiths are the extension of the Noble Qur'an, they why do we have so many different hadiths per sect (e.g. Shia Muslims have their own hadith books)? And, why are thousands of hadiths fake? An extension means equal in content and truth. Therefore, Hadiths should not contain false teachings if they are extension of the Noble Qur'an? According to the facts, Imam Bukhari himself collected over 200,000 hadiths out of which about 3,000 of them are in use today. Out of the 3,000 hadiths read by Muslims in modern times, many are classified as weak or fake. So, how can this be?
I think that laymen should be able to interpret the Holy Book for themselves too, as much as there needs to be scholarship and educated religious leadership too. We need both, not just the latter. Why? because if we only leave the interpretation to the religious leadership, then we get into the situation that people in Arabia have found themselves in since the oppressive Saudi dynasty begun their rule. We are reading that for centuries there were Muslim rulers who have utilized the Hadiths to promote their political ideas and rules.
Regarding verse 75:16-19 it is clear. However, this is what Allah SWT explains how the understanding of the Noble Qur'an is to come to a Muslim:
1. A humble approach to the Qur'an with the intent and desire to understand while using reason:
*Example: Using your own faculty of reason is actually one of the commandments from Allah SWT as seen in many verses. For instance, in 5:58 Allah SWT says that people who are not using their reason laugh at prayers to Allah SWT because they do not contemplate why someone would
pray to the Higher Power. Further, in 8:22 Allah SWT calls people who do not use their faculty of reasoning worse creatures because they have shut
off their ears and minds to the Truth willingly. That one refuses to understand something is noted in surah Al-Yunus, verse 100. Allah SWT is
basically saying that if a person demonstrates will to understand something, he/she will per Allah's SWT permission. No amount of scholars or
imams can make a person understand something if they refuse to listen (even this is stated in 43:40). When you have intent to understand, then
employ your abilities to help you: mind, eyes, speech and hearing.
2. Contemplation of what is being read/recited
*Example: Here is the commandment: “(This is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good, that they may ponder upon the verses”. So, one must contemplate and think about Qur'anic verses so that they understand. When reading Qur'an alone at night, you can't call up your imam to explain things to you.
3. Allah SWT gives clear instruction
* Example: in Surah 2, verse 242 Allah SWT says that he is giving explanation to Muhammad pbuh and Muslims so that they may use their reason. If one looks previous verses in the same surah, one will see that Allah SWT is explaining marriage issues, such as divorce. Clear, to the
point instruction for all Muslims in the ayats before verse 242.
You say that Allah SWT clearly promises explanation of the verses, and that it is something else. Then clearly we have lost it forever BECAUSE: a. hadiths were collected 200 years AFTER Prophet Muhammad's pbuh and sahaba r.a. deaths, b. there are fake hadiths, as admitted by Muslims, c. there are variations of the hadiths by sects, etc. Truth must not confuse anyone, and unfortunately, that is what many hadiths do: they confuse Muslims in that the hadiths support Old Testament but contradict Qur'an! If the Qur'an is the Last and Final Testament, the one that has not been altered as is claimed for the Bible, then we cannot have hadiths that actually support the Bible and contradict the Qur'an! For example: the Old Testament requires death sentence for sex outside of marriage or marrying one's rapist. However, Qur'an requires both men and women just to get lashes publicly, to marry other adulterers and to remain house bound until there is a different solution. Yet, what do hadiths do in this case? The clear explanation of what to do from the Qur'an is ignored and biblical tradition is promoted instead. Whenever the Qur'an wants Muslims to follow what is from the Bible, the Qur'an restates it such as in the case of: forbidding pork, stone altars, sacrificing animals to other than God, commandments not to kill innocents, not to lie, not to steal, not to use interest, to pray, to give charity, to fast, etc. Yet, everything biblical Allah SWT excluded from the Qur'an or changed it, Muslims seemed to revert back to it through hadiths! Even Jews and Christians have abandoned most of what Allah SWT excluded (e.g. death for adultery). Seems to me that by playing with hadiths in such a manner, Muslims have fulfilled the prophecy by Messenger Muhammad pbuh where he said that in the last days Muslims will follow/emulate Jews and Christians in the matters of religious practices/beliefs. And, here we are... took Muslims just 200 years after Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
Verse 16:44 actually is saying two things: Messenger Muhammad pbuh was God's tool for revealing something to the people. Hence, when it says that the Prophet pbuh is to explain it means: let them know what I just said to you, tell them what you just heard from me BECAUSE no one could hear the Revelation but Muhammad pbuh at the time. Second, people are asked to ponder about what Prophet pbuh tells them was revealed. He may provide an explanation on his own, BUT the people are required to PONDER. Again, here is that requirement to think, to reason, to ponder! For example: I can tell you, brother Abdullah, that I just received a writing script. Then, I can tell you why I received it: so that we can document things down for further generations. However, it is up to you to expand on the message and my explanation by thinking about what else you can do with the script.
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Brother Abdullah, you say that the Bible is acceptable for some of Islamic teachings. But in truth, super conservative Muslims have been using Biblical teachings for MANY Islamic teachings, not just some. In my previous post I gave an example of punishment for adultery that is of biblical rather than Qur'anic origin, even though Qur'an gives clear instruction about the punishment. The conservative imams and rulers have used Biblical teachings to limit human rights (I am sorry to say this, but it is the truth!). Here are examples:
1. Capital punishment for apostasy: Qur'an does not give any capital punishment for apostates just promises Hell in the Afterlife. Proof of this is in much quoted verse 2:256 where there is no compulsion in religion. Also, in 3:20 and 5:92 we are told that there are people who submit to God but then turn their backs and Prophet pbuh is instructed to just deliver the message to them. Any other time that an infidel is killed is related to a battle during the defensive war Muslims fought at the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
2. Women's dress code: 1 Corinthians 11:4-7 wants women to pray veiled, Deuteronomy 22:5 forbids women to wear "men's" clothing, I Timothy 2:9-10 requires modest apparel, with limitations for adornments so as not to imitate Roman and Greek women who practice braiding their hair, wear jewelry, etc. Qur'an just speaks of modesty and being appropriate, leaving one to use reason in this matter. The veil part is debatable among Muslims. However, places like Iran and S. Arabia have gone further: they require chaperones, women can only wear black in public, they must have a full burqa or be totally veiled, etc. All of which is not actually from the Qur'an.
3. Child marriage: Qur'an requires a person of marriageable age to be able to make their own decision as a sign of showing maturity and having the ability to choose. Plus, Qur'an forbids children seeing adults naked. Bible on the other hand in Numbers 31:17-18 sanctions rape of female children who were captives. Ezekiel 16:7-8 speaks of developed female person with hair, breasts, etc., making those physical appearances as sign of marriageable age. Yet, there are many girls who develop but are still children and have not gotten their menstrual cycle yet.
Also, according to the Babylonian Talmud:
"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.'
Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.
Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "
So, what do SOME Muslims do? They invented Aisha's ra age, and proceeded to continue with the practice of child marriages.
4. Death for homosexuality in Leviticus 20:13. Yet, Qur'an only mentions God's punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah. Further, God calls homosexuality indecency and is a form of adultery classified as "liwat" or (sodomy). Further, in 4:15-16 God says that adultery is to be punished as follows: ""And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful." And of course the public lashing. Yet, hadiths follow the Bible by claiming that Prophet Muhammad pbuh ordered death for homosexuals.
Those are but some of the examples. Any time human rights are in question, the Hadiths take precedence. And it should not be so.
ws sis!
the sahih hadiths are enough to have a complete interpretation of the Quran and the 'weak' ones go on to clarify meanings although they are not used in rulings ... this is what is meant by them being an extension of the Quran; they shed light on it's meaning; what good would it be for Allah to preserve the text of the Quran but for muslims not to have the right interpretation?; they still would not be guided aright so just for God to protect the text of quran and not it's meaning goes against the wisdom of ALlah, hence the meaning has to be preserved too; the 'fake' hadiths are never in use just like 'fake' translations/interpretations of Quran by ultra modernists [rashad khalifa, ahmadi's etc] are never in use either
shia muslims deviated at time of the righteous Caliph Usman and Ali [ra]; the hadith says these 2 caliphs [as well as Abu Bakar and Umar [ra]] will be rightly guided hence we can be sure that shias are astray; they just made up a load of fake hadiths!; i've looked into the science of hadith and have seen that the sunni methodology of preservation is intellectually and scientifically sound according to todays standards; shia's collection are unproven
the Quran itself indicates that the original meaning of the Quran will be preserved hence we do not have to follow wahhabi or deviant agendas; 90 percent of the muslims [the madhabi sunni's] infact follow the traditional interpretation thats been passed down to us from an unbroken chain going back to Prophet [saw], not saudi or any other deviant meanings. there is guidance in the Quran and sunnah itself of how to recognize the real correct interpretation hence if we follow Quran sincerely we could never go astray as we'll be following it's instructions of how to recognize and adhere to right interpretation too; here is that 'guidance' in a nutshell:
Imam Abu Dawood (Rahimahullah) has quoted the well known Hadith concerning the division of the Muslim Ummah into seventy-three sects in his Sunan (3/4580, English edn):Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, "Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, 'Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said': 'Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama'ah).'
Abdal Hakim Murad (the translator of the above book) said in the footnote to the fiftieth branch of faith: 'Orthodoxy in Islam is defined as the doctrine of ahl al-sunna wa'l jama'a, the People of the Sunna and the Community. To know whether a doctrine or practise is orthodox or heretical, the Muslim is required to find out whether it is recognised by the majority of Muslim scholars (see later for Imam al-Munawi's commentary). Thus even without looking into their theology, he will know that sects such as the Isma'ilis, the Khariji's, the Wahhabi's, the Twelver Shi'a and others (not to mention anti-Islamic groupings such as the Ahmadiya and the Bahais) are to be repudiated.'"
http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ahlsunna.htm
Oh, but contradictory Hadiths are in use and serve to help in taking away human rights. Anything that contradicts Qur'an is suspicious to me.
I think it is too boastful to say that 90% believers follow Hadiths to the T. Perhaps the Arabs/ Middle Easterners and some parts of Africa. Which make up about 40% of the Ummah. The rest use critical factor called reason. This is why the most extreme and least friendly to human rights are places where Hadiths are revered so much.
I think it is too boastful to say that 90% believers follow Hadiths to the T. Perhaps the Arabs/ Middle Easterners and some parts of Africa. Which make up about 40% of the Ummah. The rest use critical factor called reason. This is why the most extreme and least friendly to human rights are places where Hadiths are revered so much.