is Allah transcendental

H

Hermes

Guest
or a personal god?
What I mean is is Allah a personal, anthropomorphic God? Somewhere I read that in Islam the god image is closer to an transcendental god than a "person". i.e. it transcends all explanations or speculations upon, it is perhaps without sex or any characteristics that we humans can comprehend.
And if so why is Allah any different for others who share the same concept. There is only one God.
 
Hi,

I am not a scholar of Islam, but I am a Muslim. In Islam, when one talks about a "person" this is about a human being. Also, Islam teaches that Allah SWT is above ALL His creations and therefore cannot be identified as a "person." However, this does not mean that Allah SWT is not closely involved in our affairs. Allah SWT states in the Noble Qur'an that He is closer to us than our jagular vein.

Allah SWT is different from everything because He is The God, One and Only. If anything were like Him, than we would have multiple divinities to follow. As the Supreme Creator, Being, it makes sense that He would be like nobody else we can grasp. We only know about Him what He has wished for us to know.
 
... there are no pictural representations of God, in Islam. To do so, I am led to believe, is ... presumptious on the part of man, who cannot hope to ever see God as he is...

...this same idea of God being beyond human understanding, due to God's "vastness" or multiplicity of being, occurs, as far as I know, in Hinduism and also Judaism...

(hopefully nobody who actually knows about what they're talking about will contradict me there)...
 
Hi Hermes,

Allah is both transcendental and personal with the latter being contingent

what that basically means is that Allah is litterally transcendental, but his attributes have percievable human qualities such as being mercifull, loving, seeing, hearing, the just, etc, thus allthough his attributes allow us to have a personal relationship with Him, yet it is also aknowledged that this 'personality' is contingent as in reality they are transcendental too thus they are only real [as we understand them] in as far as they save us

for a more indepth understanding, here is an excellent article by one of the leading UK Scholars:

Theological lessons from the Sumatra earthquake

hope this helps
 
God's (Allah's) 'personality' is contingent upon 'PERSONALITY' (as in 'Persona') being
the Supreme reason for God existing.

Personality originates from God as the prime motivating factor for our material cosmos and for the reason for God's Own existence.

The reason there is a God Almighty is God's Persona.

This is reflected upon us ---that is why the Golden Rule is the Monarch of Rules.

The Mystery of Life God is the Fountainhead reservior of Persona.

What else would God existence signify to one of us humans? What else, maybe something interesting mentioned in an encyclopdia?

God is a Persona eternally. God Supreme-Soul and we are all parts-and-parcel sparks of that soul.

God's persona must be recognised as the Goal of the Mystery of life;
otherwise, the Human persona will place prominance upon material forms and goals that are not eternal ... the Human persona will place prominance upon just something interesting that can be found mentioned in an encyclopdia, or picture book somewhere.
 
since this issue can mean the difference between idolatry and monothiesm, let me just clarify further as to exactly how Allah is 'personal':

Allah's attributes are nothing at all remotely like that of humans or any of the creation; they are transcendental to the extent that whatever may come to the human mind, ALlah is not that and far above it; here are some exceprts from that link above:

The Koran�s God is, of course, depicted in personal terms. The 99 Names are all names which have some imaginable manifestation among human beings. We cannot be omnipotent, but we understand power, and hence can in some sense apprehend that God possesses power which can brook no opposition. And so on with the other qualities, of sight, hearing, knowledge, and the rest.

To say, on the basis of this language, that God is a �person� (which Muslims can in some careful sense do, although the term is absent from our classical theology), because He possesses qualities which we identify as analogous to those found in human life, such as consciousness, purpose, will, capacity, and perception ...

The relationship between God�s power and our power is not one of degree, but of category, just as the difference between the finite and the infinite is categoric. His power is ultimately quite unlike our power. Our power is what it is because of the reality or the possibility of its encountering an obstacle. If we had omnipotence, we would probably not immediately associate it with the power we used to have at all. The same may be said for the other divine names which appear to have human applications. Hence the Qur�an says, �there is nothing like unto Him.� (42:11) And in the hadith: �whatever occurs to your mind; Allah is other than that.�

His transcendence is not in tension with His immanence. This is because the transcendence is true in an absolute sense, because His nature is transcendent. The Qur�an�s language about the immanent God (the God of tashbih) is true contingently, because human beings are contingent.

The Divine Essence, the true God an sich is beyond imagining, and indeed, we are forbidden to ponder It. Instead, we ponder Its names, and it is the names which make worship possible. Yet insofar as they are intelligible to us, they are contingent. They are true insofar as they save us. He tells us that He is �Hearing�, not because He possesses an organ which can physically intercept sound-waves, but because this is the truest way of conveying to our minds an aspect of His nature.

All this suggests that Islam is the middle way, located between, at the one extreme, the incarnationism of Christianity, which posits a God of Love and then cannot explain natural disasters, and on the other extreme, the impersonal Real of most forms of Buddhism, which has no problem at all with the existence of evil in the world. We are �neither of the East nor of the West�, we are the �middle nation.� And part of this is that we recognise the provisional quality of our understanding of His names. He, the Glorious, cannot be accused; to do so is simply to announce our own ignorance and arrogance. Instead, we submit to Him, thanking Him for the unearned gift that is every breath we take
 
Thanks for the reply. I have basic problem with any personal attribute given to God as it seemingly will limit and lower God's statute - it seems all attributes like merciful, loving etc are projections by us , humans who again show basic lack of understanding and demonstrate it by anthropomorphic ideas.

Hi Hermes,

Allah is both transcendental and personal with the latter being contingent

what that basically means is that Allah is litterally transcendental, but his attributes have percievable human qualities such as being mercifull, loving, seeing, hearing, the just, etc, thus allthough his attributes allow us to have a personal relationship with Him, yet it is also aknowledged that this 'personality' is contingent as in reality they are transcendental too thus they are only real [as we understand them] in as far as they save us

for a more indepth understanding, here is an excellent article by one of the leading UK Scholars:

Theological lessons from the Sumatra earthquake

hope this helps
 
The classical western definition of 'person' is "an individual substance of a rational nature" from Boethius — I'm not sure how Islam differs on that point?

In the Abrahamic Traditions, it is understood that God is utterly transcendent, but chooses to communicate with man, in such manner that man can understand. Thus some order of contingent determination is necessary, for without it, we would not be able to say anything at all ...

Of course, the more 'grass roots' you get, the more naive and personal the thinking becomes.

Indeed most believers' ideas of God are probably quite idolatrous, but if the heart is in the right place, then it doesn't matter how naive, or how risible, the divine image is.

By the same token, the metaphysician or the esoterist with their ideas of the 'Transcendent' or 'Absolute' can be just as idolatrous as the idea of God being a pleasant old man with a long white beard.

God bless,

Thomas
 
The classical western definition of 'person' is "an individual substance of a rational nature" from Boethius — I'm not sure how Islam differs on that point?

In the Abrahamic Traditions, it is understood that God is utterly transcendent, but chooses to communicate with man, in such manner that man can understand. Thus some order of contingent determination is necessary, for without it, we would not be able to say anything at all ...

Of course, the more 'grass roots' you get, the more naive and personal the thinking becomes.

Indeed most believers' ideas of God are probably quite idolatrous, but if the heart is in the right place, then it doesn't matter how naive, or how risible, the divine image is.

By the same token, the metaphysician or the esoterist with their ideas of the 'Transcendent' or 'Absolute' can be just as idolatrous as the idea of God being a pleasant old man with a long white beard.

God bless,

Thomas

Do you realise that, what you have eloquently surmised, does not express what you personally think?
More over, you have manage to pronounce several sentences without saying anything.
 
basic problem with any personal attribute given to God as it seemingly will limit and lower God's statute - it seems all attributes like . . .

The problem is one's deep jealousy.
To hate God and all things thus Good ---is based on enviousness.

Envy ... covetness ... anger ... brutishness ---there is a progression and it is down-deep expressed in behavior that causes chaos.

Life is about developing one's personal sense of sublime ettiqutte ---and thus becoming qualified to (re-)enter the pearly gates.

..............................................................

Is not the cosmos a manifestation of the potency of God's Supreme Status as God?
Is not all the elements that compose the universe, ie: earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, bodily-ego, space, time ---created by a singular one-and-only God Almighty?

Well then, if one says yes ---all "forms" are created by the God.

I have learnt that all these things listed above were created by a Persona.

Persona glanced over the vast darkness and thus He impregnated the creation to come into being.

God is the the self-manifested "Supreme Personality of Godhead" "Dio Supremo Persona" ---from which all "forms" eminated to manifest the temporal universe that we travel in our life-times.

If I state: "The soul is free to touch all the forms in all it's varigated stratums of living forms" [aka, samsara in continuous re-births in the whole gambit of species of life] ---this is in-contradistinction to behaving "Like your Father in Heaven".

We are lucky to be Humans ---beware, it's temporary.
The vacancies available for souls-in-waiting-to-be-born in future are a rare commodity.
The availablity of life-forms of livng species of life [which all have a soul life-force with the same qualities as we presently possess] with their concominant Conscious Falculties is easily available to be born into by way of inheritance rights arrcued by a Human's Fruits-of-his-works [aka, karma].

Karma (work/acts) is all about 'forms and surfaces' bouncing into each other [ref: A 'Newton's Cradle'] ---such forms bouncing off each other is in-contradistinction to behaving 'Like a Person'.

Love, mercy, compassion ---this are practiced by Personas ---they are not dug up out of the ground and stacked and sold.

Persona came before the creation of 'forms and surfaces' aka the universe.

Self-Existing Persona [God] pre-dates physics & science [invention].
 
Thanks for the reply. I have basic problem with any personal attribute given to God as it seemingly will limit and lower God's statute - it seems all attributes like merciful, loving etc are projections by us , humans who again show basic lack of understanding and demonstrate it by anthropomorphic ideas.

it seems that the meaning of 'contingent' completely went over your head :confused:
 
The classical western definition of 'person' is "an individual substance of a rational nature" from Boethius — I'm not sure how Islam differs on that point?

In the Abrahamic Traditions, it is understood that God is utterly transcendent, but chooses to communicate with man, in such manner that man can understand. Thus some order of contingent determination is necessary, for without it, we would not be able to say anything at all ...

Of course, the more 'grass roots' you get, the more naive and personal the thinking becomes.

Indeed most believers' ideas of God are probably quite idolatrous, but if the heart is in the right place, then it doesn't matter how naive, or how risible, the divine image is.

By the same token, the metaphysician or the esoterist with their ideas of the 'Transcendent' or 'Absolute' can be just as idolatrous as the idea of God being a pleasant old man with a long white beard.

God bless,

Thomas

Hi Thomas

there are some idolatrous people who call themselves sufi's, but these are infact different from muslim sufi's; find out the difference in the following link:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/did-jesus-die-13344-8.html#post261696
 
...no it did not go over my head but the way of "contingent" just emphasizes majority of man's total lack of awareness and understanding of spiritual issues. They need the crutch of "personal" characteristics to relate and explain events beyond their understanding.
it seems that the meaning of 'contingent' completely went over your head :confused:
 
majority of man's total lack of awareness and understanding of spiritual issues.

Does this refer to the type of men that are materialists that "could not get through the eye of a needle" type of non-spiritual minded persons?

Aside from such people ... that just leaves 'spiritually minded folks'.

No?

They need the crutch of "personal" characteristics to relate and explain events beyond their understanding.

Are youinterested an intectual challenge?
Please define what is the definition of "personal" or even better, define "personal characteristics".

I feel you may NOT be able to do so.

It should be interesting ... it'll cause me to do so prep tp reply if you reply.
_____________________________________
UIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUI

The definition of "personal characteristics" is __________________.




May I suggest as a bench mark:
'avoid characteristics of famous dead people or famous people prone to die --- but do include characteristics of living lives'.
 
...no it did not go over my head but the way of "contingent" just emphasizes majority of man's total lack of awareness and understanding of spiritual issues. They need the crutch of "personal" characteristics to relate and explain events beyond their understanding.

oh hermes, it seems that you are regurgitating this argument somewhat blindly

just think about all the obvious signs of Allah's 'contingent' qualities hermes and you will see they are evident

what do you think all the blessings and good things indicates of Allah; can it sound like 'Mercy'?

what about all the bad metahpysical consequencs for bad acts, and the purgotory and punishing legislation for it in His revelation; does that not indicate 'Justice'?

And does not Allah have to be all aware of everything happening in his creation for these laws to be correctly applied, indicating 'hearing' and 'seeing', thus it dont take much thinking at all Hermes to know that Allah's attributes are evident

if a person changes his ways for the better, does not the metahpysical laws effect him in a positive way?, thus indicating Allah is 'relenting' and i could go on with so many other qualities which are analogous to humans too, but the difference is ofcourse that human qualities are created and finite while Allah's are infinite and transcendent

what is man projecting his own qualities on God is when one anthropomophises or incarnates God or judges Him by human standards, as Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad explains;

To say, on the basis of this language, that God is a �person� (which Muslims can in some careful sense do, although the term is absent from our classical theology), because He possesses qualities which we identify as analogous to those found in human life, such as consciousness, purpose, will, capacity, and perception, is, however, not to affirm a Christian notion of �God amongst us�, immanuel. Firstly, because for God, as a personal, localised presence, to be at one place inside His creation suggests that He is otherwise absent from it, which is a dualist notion. And secondly, because it concedes to the natural human desire to think that God is like ourselves, only without the imperfections. Keep adding to power, this logic seems to suggest, and eventually you arrive at omnipotence.

This reasoning, however, is not accepted by our theology. The relationship between God�s power and our power is not one of degree, but of category, just as the difference between the finite and the infinite is categoric. His power is ultimately quite unlike our power. Our power is what it is because of the reality or the possibility of its encountering an obstacle. If we had omnipotence, we would probably not immediately associate it with the power we used to have at all. The same may be said for the other divine names which appear to have human applications. Hence the Qur�an says, �there is nothing like unto Him.� (42:11) And in the hadith: �whatever occurs to your mind; Allah is other than that.�

Part of the brilliance of the Qur�an is that it makes no compromises over God�s transcendence, as it battles against pagan and Christian attempts to �localise� God; while at the same time it makes no compromises over the human requirement to worship Him.

He tells us that He is �Hearing�, not because He possesses an organ which can physically intercept sound-waves, but because this is the truest way of conveying to our minds an aspect of His nature. And put together, His names of immanence do not yield a person truly analogous to other persons. Thus Islam does not say, �God is love�. God is loving (wadud), and mercy is ultimately His preponderant quality, but it is to limit His plenitude to deny that He is other things as well, some of them easier for our finite minds to make sense of than others. Christianity, because of its insistence that the immanent Christ was truly God, banished from Him the attributes of rigour, which are less intrinsic to immanence. Once �back in Heaven�, this person-God could then be validly questioned about events we dislike in the world, just as Odysseus challenges Poseidon to explain a storm.
...........................


ps; infact the very reason why God created us is so that we can witness and experience his attributes:

we may note that the entire universe has been created by Allah in order that His names and attributes might be manifest, that is, in order that He might be known, for He says,
"Nor did I create jinn and men, except to worship Me" (Qur’an 51:56).
(al-Baghawi Mujahid [ibn Jabr al-Makki (d. 104/722)], said this means ‘except to know Me’ which is a sound interpretation, since if He had not created them, they would not have known His existence and His oneness (Ma‘alam al-tanzil, 5.230).

Now, the divine names, such as, al-Rahman ‘the All-merciful’, al-Karim ‘the Most Generous’, al-Rafi‘ ‘He-Who-Raises’, al-Khafid ‘He-Who-Lowers’, al-Sabur ‘the Most Patient’ al-Muntaqim ‘the Avenger’, and the others, entail and comprise the existence of the entire spectrum of human conditions—but particularly, ultimately, eternally, and at their fullest manifestation—the outcomes of paradise and hell.

Haqiqat al-Muhammadiyya
 
It refers to anyone who blindly takes a word of another in a form of organized religion, preaching, a "sacred" book or "revelation" over his own judgment and sound mind.
Any reference of a god that is "aware", "merciful" or "angry" is a projection of ours, where in fact we have no evidence that God gives a rat's ass over human affairs, it could just be that laws such as evolution, cosmic balance, action->reaction are natures laws are in fact on autopilot and God can lay back and have a permanent siesta and care of nothing.
In fact there is strong evidence that we [humanity] in the driving seat and as it is we are driving off the cliff :eek:
I do not buy into any religion, Islam, Christianity or Judaism - for their is mostly the spoon feed nonsense, interpretation, conjectures. Kudos to Islam, at least accepts the transcendental part and for that my hat is off to them...
Does this refer to the type of men that are materialists that "could not get through the eye of a needle" type of non-spiritual minded persons?

Aside from such people ... that just leaves 'spiritually minded folks'.

No?



Are youinterested an intectual challenge?
Please define what is the definition of "personal" or even better, define "personal characteristics".

I feel you may NOT be able to do so.

It should be interesting ... it'll cause me to do so prep tp reply if you reply.
_____________________________________
UIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUIUI

The definition of "personal characteristics" is __________________.




May I suggest as a bench mark:
'avoid characteristics of famous dead people or famous people prone to die --- but do include characteristics of living lives'.
 
The definition of "personal characteristics" is . . .

Anyone who blindly takes a word of another in a form of organized religion, preaching, a "sacred" book or "revelation" over his own judgment and sound mind.

You are way out in philosophy land with your reply.

All things experienced of the "Human Condition" helps defines personality better than verbs of actions and feats.

But while you mention "actions and feats" ---that is the litmus test to prove Godhood.

God is "Controller".
God is "Small and larger than anything else"

But back to personality:

God is the most beautiful.
God is the most intelligent.
God is the most richest.
God is the most strongest.
God is the most famous.
God is the most renounced.

He is the fountainhead reservoir of the pinicle of Creation in the form of His own Personage.

God has His own name, fame, form, personality, paraphenalia, entourage and pastimes ---all of which are transcended to the Material Laws of Nature & Time & Space ---for His SupremeSoul is the origin of the manifest creation.

God alone is the only one that can benedict others with the grace to know him face to face ---and too, one must meet muster to get past God's eternal attendants.

The small short life span(s) of repeated lifetimes is the standard route to self-educate one's determination to meet the One-And-Only as the goal of life in the material world of time and manifest space.

The contrary is oblivion in a transcient world of multi-varigated sense-gratification in all it stratums . . . at our disposal to seek.

The famous "Un-conceivable part of God's Personage" is:

The unguent supra ambrosia that overcomes and accompanies the pure-soul that can gain the audience with and thus the inter-personal reciprocal honor ---the degree of Transcendent ecstacy is "In-conceivable".

Only those without ulterior motives of self-angrandisement . . . but rather, devotional service to God's personal pleasure is the inner circle of devotees.

All such mellows are due to the Quality of Godhead's Par-excellance Personage ---contrarily, God's Majestic Control and sovernity over His self-born cosmic creation and Auto-cratic existance ---has little attraction for His pure (non-material minded) devotee.

Pure devotees do not seek righteous inheritances comprised of material wealth etc ---but rather the face time audience to exchange transcendental pastimes with Godhead ---once again; after surjourning in the material world of Time and space; as we fallen souls are contemplating the envious status we have for Godhead's Rule over all surveyed.

To rebutt this:
One must provide citations of traditional spiritual scripture ---chapter and verse(s) please.

My school leaves the 'impersonal' & 'voidistic' & 'nebulous Cloud' definitions of God behind in the material World of manifest Time and space.
 
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