Salvation

[Jimmer]

Newb here, just a need some clarification here-

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

NIV

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NIV

So am I to understand that no matter how many times a person sins against me I am to forgive them, completely and from the heart, and if I keep sinning against God after hearing the gospel of Jesus I'll burn in hell?

Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks!

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yeah, a God who dishes out reward and punishment is non existent. God is more than willing to forgive, but if mankind is hell bent on destruction we will continue to receive the wages of our misguided deeds. Reward and punishment is built into the system we call life. God forgives, but until we change how we live, what we do, etc. I'm afraid we will never see anything but hell. If it ain't heaven, it is hell. Life is what we make it.

 

[Azure24]

Hi Jimmer,

I will try to answer as well as I can.

So am I to understand that no matter how many times a person sins against me I am to forgive them, completely...and if I keep sinning against God after hearing the gospel of Jesus I'll burn in hell?

The first part is correct the last part (in bold) is not.

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

The number seventy-seven has a connection with completeness...as the number "seven" is God's number for completeness...

"And on the SEVENTH day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the SEVENTH day from ALL [complete] his work which he had made." (Gen. 2:2)

"...walks in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks [which are the seven churches]" (Rev. 2:1).

"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit [of GOD] says unto the [ALL the] churches"[/B] (Rev. 1:7, 11, 17, 29, 2:6, 13, 22).

etc, etc...so the message in Matt. 18:21-22 is to forgive completely.

However:

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Now, for some reason you automatically assumed this "raging fire" is from Hell.

No. The "raging fire" does not harm anybody...it just PURIFIES.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

God SAVES sinners by consuming them with fire...

"Now if any man build upon this [spiritual] foundation [Christ] gold, silver, precious stones [godly character traits], wood, hay, stubble [carnal character traits]; Every man’s work [thoughts, words, and deeds] shall be made manifest [become known, come to light]: for the day shall declare it [make it evident], because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:12-13).

And so we read this eye-opening verse:

"Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).

...Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot...

This is referring to the SECOND death...

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH" (Rev. 21:8).

However, the second death...much like the FIRST (our deaths in THIS LIFE)...is NOT permanent.

31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It is a "dreadful" thing and yet, that does not negate the fact that there is also "safety, shelter, and covering" in God’s Divine Pond of Spiritual purifying FIRE.

 

[seattlegal]

Newb here, just a need some clarification here-

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

This would be for your own mental health--you don't just bandage a wound without cleaning it out and allow it to fester, do you? Forgiveness is like cleaning out the infectious crap out of a wound, so you can have healing without festering complications.

NIV

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NIV

So am I to understand that no matter how many times a person sins against me I am to forgive them, completely and from the heart, and if I keep sinning against God after hearing the gospel of Jesus I'll burn in hell?

Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks!

Try reading James 2

1 My brothers, do not show favoritism as you hold on to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.(A) 2 For example, a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and a poor man dressed in dirty clothes also comes in. 3 If you look with favor on the man wearing the fine clothes and say, “Sit here in a good place,” and yet you say to the poor man, “Stand over there,” or, “Sit here on the floor by my footstool,” 4 haven’t you discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my dear brothers: Didn’t God choose the poor in this world(B) to be rich in faith(C) and heirs(D) of the kingdom that He has promised to those who love Him? 6 Yet you dishonored that poor man.(E) Don’t the rich oppress you and drag(F) you into the courts? 7 Don’t they blaspheme the noble name that was pronounced over you at your baptism?(G)
8 Indeed, if you keep the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself,(H)[a] you are doing well. 9 But if you show favoritism,(I) you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all.(J) 11 For He who said, Do not commit adultery,[b] also said, Do not murder.(K)[c] So if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you are a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who will be judged by the law of freedom.(L) 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who hasn’t shown mercy.(M) Mercy triumphs over judgment.​

Can anyone keep the Old Testament Law perfectly without faltering? Unlikely. Hence, the need for forgiveness. If you extend mercy, you might get mercy in return. If you don't, then won't that lack of mercy likely come back to you when you are in need of mercy?


Even if you don't receive mercy back when you extend mercy, you are still acting from a position of strength and health--you are cleaning out your wounds so they don't fester and get burningly painful.

 

[Azure24]

Can anyone keep the Old Testament Law perfectly without faltering? Unlikely.

What about Paul?

"But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." (Acts. 8:3)

"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS." (Phil. 3:6).
aning out your wounds so they don't fester and get burningly painful. [/QUOTE]

 

[Gatekeeper]

Now, for some reason you automatically assumed this "raging fire" is from Hell.

No. The "raging fire" does not harm anybody...it just PURIFIES.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).

"For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).

God SAVES sinners by consuming them with fire...

"Now if any man build upon this [spiritual] foundation [Christ] gold, silver, precious stones [godly character traits], wood, hay, stubble [carnal character traits]; Every man’s work [thoughts, words, and deeds] shall be made manifest [become known, come to light]: for the day shall declare it [make it evident], because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:12-13).

And so we read this eye-opening verse:

"Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).



This is referring to the SECOND death...

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND DEATH" (Rev. 21:8).

However, the second death...much like the FIRST (our deaths in THIS LIFE)...is NOT permanent.



It is a "dreadful" thing and yet, that does not negate the fact that there is also "safety, shelter, and covering" in God’s Divine Pond of Spiritual purifying FIRE.

I enjoyed your post and agree with much of it. Fire is a necessary element when it comes to humanity growing, evolving, and developing as a species. The chaff (Impurities/tares) are burned away through the process of living and through the Spirit. The wheat (That which is of worth) is preserved.


I'm reminded of Malachi 3 .......


"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD."

....... and


"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."


We endure an "age" of purification on earth, tried by fire (Life under the sun) whereby we are purified by both life experience and by the Spirit. We must first be tried and tested by life before we are able to be made new. James tells us to count it all joy when we face various trials as these trials help make us complete (perfect). I think fire alludes to the sun and our lives on this earth.


Life is about learning how to live effectively. Our lives today help prepare, teach, and lead our descendants. Our mistakes and achievements are testimony to our potential. IF they (we) learn from the past, we will be better able to secure a bright future and a better world for future inhabitants.


I think it comes down to what we are discussing in the other thread. Ignorance leads us to destruction, while knowledge leads us to life. It is life under the sun that prepares and helps purify humanity as a collective body. Our lives will stand as a recorded testimony to both our destructive and creative abilities. Likewise, love (Spirit) further refines us into who we were born to be.

God = Love
Love = Spirit
Spirit = Lord

Who can endure the day of his coming? This may be better asked, "Who can resist the day of his coming?" When the Lord comes as Spirit (love) who can resist? Give a man a glass of dirty water and a glass of clean, which do you think the man will choose to drink? That's the difference between the old man and new. The new man thirsts for clean water, fresh water, living water ... the new man thirsts for love (who is the Lord).

 

[seattlegal]

What about Paul?

"But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." (Acts. 8:3)

"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS." (Phil. 3:6).

Look at the larger context of what Paul said:

1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice(A) in the Lord. To write to you again about this is no trouble for me and is a protection for you.

2 Watch out for “dogs,”[a] watch out for evil(B) workers, watch out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision,(C) the ones who serve by the Spirit(D) of God, boast in Christ Jesus,(E) and do not put confidence in the flesh— 4 although I once also had confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised the eighth day;(F) of the nation of Israel,(G) of the tribe of Benjamin,(H) a Hebrew born of Hebrews; regarding the law,(I) a Pharisee; 6 regarding zeal,(J) persecuting(K) the church; regarding the righteousness that is in the law,(L) blameless.(M) 7 But everything that was a gain to me, I have considered to be a loss because of Christ. 8 More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value(N) of knowing Christ(O) Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth, so that I may gain Christ(P) 9 and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law,(Q) but one that is through faith in Christ[b]—the righteousness from God based on faith.(R) 10 My goal is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings,(S) being conformed to His death,(T) 11 assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead.
​

Paul's putting confidence in the fleshly Law really didn't get him very far in the development of Spirit, no? He zealously persecuted others who didn't measure up as perfectly as him according to the fleshly law, no?

The trouble with the rat race is this: even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat!

 

[Princely]

Everyone shall be taught by God. Not that anyone has seen God. Only the One who comes from God has seen God. I come from Him ,He's the One who sent me. The Lord says this;

Psalms;

"The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him incurs guilt."

Trust in the Lord, and do good; so you will live in the land, and enjoy security. Take delight in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. He will make justice dawn for you like the light; bright as the noon day will be your vindication.

The meek shall inherit the land, and delight themselves in abundant peace.

Offer to God praise as a sacrifice, and fulfill your vows to the Most High, then call on me in your time of distress and I will rescue you, and you shall glorify me."

" Those who offer praise as a sacrifice glorify me and to those who go the right way I will show the salvation of God."

Let the righteous rejoice in the Lord and take refuge in him. Let all the upright of heart glory in Him.

Judgment will again be done with justice, and all the upright of heart will follow it.

Sing to the Lord a new song; sing to the Lord, all the earth. Sing to the Lord, bless his name; tell of his salvation day after day. Tell his glory among the nations, his wondrous works among all the peoples.

The heavens proclaim the Lords righteousness; and all the peoples behold his glory.

Light dawns for the righteous, and joy for the upright in heart.

The Lord has made known his salvation; he has revealed his justice in the sight of all the nations. He has remembered his kindness and faithfulness to the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Blessed are those who observe what is right, who do always what is just.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it possess virtue. His praise endures forever.

Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord. Blessed are those who keep his decrees, who seek him with their whole heart, who do no wrong, but walk in his ways.

 

[Dream]

So am I to understand that no matter how many times a person sins against me I am to forgive them, completely and from the heart, and if I keep sinning against God after hearing the gospel of Jesus I'll burn in hell?

Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks!

If you keep sinning after you hear the gospel of Jesus? Reading NT letters is like listening to half of a phone conversation, and so is reading the gospels since they are so old and layered with meaning. You have clearly jumped to a lot of conclusions, and if someone is teaching you this stuff, fire them. The best and most god-fearing approach for you is to use common sense, since you don't understand how to read scripture verses/or are not interested enough or/don't have time. Don't be cowed by people who pretend that they are very knowledgeable about the Bible or who are convinced that they know something. Avoid people with complex theories about the Bible or equally ridiculously simple arrangements of scriptures used to prove things.

There are loads of people that want to teach you about the Bible. You are like Alice in Wonderland. Your odds of running into 'Just the right person who can explain it' are very slim, but there is a very simple rule that will give you an upper hand on almost any topic. If you simply love people and use common sense, you can bet that you will be in tune with scriptural principles. If your position is moral, thoughtful, kind, reasonable, generous, courageous and so forth then stick to your position, and don't let people push you around with their ridiculous shoe-horning arguments.

Why am I saying these things?

Biblical arguments are not very convincing. Generally, 'Biblical arguments' have one ultimate effect which is to exert control over you. The only real power in such arguments is the personality of the person that is arguing and it is by their force of will that anyone listens to them. You should try to avoid arguing and to submit to the opinions of others where possible. That is what is the truly Biblical way. Avoid forceful Bible nerds but don't avoid the Bible or conversations about it.

ps.

The lesson that Jesus was teaching about forgiving an 'Offense' seven times was to a Jewish person about his Jewish 'Brother', and you have not studied any of the conversation at all. Jesus was talking about something completely different from what you are thinking of. If you don't see how that is, go back just a few verses where Jesus says to Peter "Go and show him his fault". Obviously Jesus is not just telling you to just let everything go and just keep taking damage!

Finally, I sincerely hope you were not trolling by your post with yet another ridiculously un-researched 'Bible contradiction'. I'm sorry if I offend, but there are so many people doing that which is annoying. Leave finding Bible contradictions to the experts. If there are any, no one really cares.

 

[Jimmer]

No, I'm not trolling but I've never been intensive in Bible study either. Most of my experience out of Sunday School/Church has been the 'Bible verse a day to keep the devil away' kind of reading but lots of it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If Jesus overcame the world, why is Satan still in charge of it? If he reversed the original curse, why do we still toil in work and women have difficulty in giving birth? It sounds strange but I think about God during much of my day, usually ranging from absolute awe to genuine anger against Him. I'm grateful my sister pointed me to this site, lots of great info here, thanks all!

P.S. Any ideas on where thoughts come from?

 

[Dream]

No, I'm not trolling but I've never been intensive in Bible study either. Most of my experience out of Sunday School/Church has been the 'Bible verse a day to keep the devil away' kind of reading but lots of it just doesn't make any sense to me.

You aren't the only one, and what about people who can't read or who are retarded or blind like Helen Keller was? It just goes to show that reading isn't everything, nor is seeing or hearing, but instead of that you are the thing that really matters. As an example (but don't take this too literally), the core of the Bible is called 'The Ten Commandments'. One of the reasons they are considered the core is that they are written by the very finger of God, but in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 the Bible records that God formed people with both of his hands (10 fingers). I take that to mean that understanding people is 10 times more important than understanding how to read the Bible. Sometimes people place too much importance upon studying the Bible and not enough upon studying the more important gift, resulting in problems and in misunderstandings. Stubbornly insisting about the meaning of a word is a sign that you have lost sight of what is important. A classic example would be the division of a church over the meaning of 'Holy Spirit'.

If Jesus overcame the world, why is Satan still in charge of it? If he reversed the original curse, why do we still toil in work and women have difficulty in giving birth? It sounds strange but I think about God during much of my day, usually ranging from absolute awe to genuine anger against Him. I'm grateful my sister pointed me to this site, lots of great info here, thanks all!

People are the core of all of creation which itself reflects the glory of God. As the 10 commandments are the core of the Bible, so humanity is the core of creation. Jesus is quoted to say "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" which is a terrific way of putting all of this into a nutshell. Does that mean that you always do the right things? No it does not. This has to do with the Bible verses about satan. The 'World' is all of the distractions that drag you down, such as temptations and schedules and your own physical problems and relationship problems. At least that is what I think.

The Bible says that God created man in his own image (Genesis 1:27). This is the basis of understanding God and the nature of the Bible. We honor the Bible insofar as it reflects Gods best creation, us, just as we reflect God back to God. (One of the reasons to accept that we are made in God's image is that people of many different faiths have independently recognized it using their own words. It is a self-evident concept, but additionally the Bible is adamant about it.) Anything we know about God is clear from his creation (Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."). Before you can begin to talk about Satan in the Bible and about Jesus overcoming the world, you have to put the Bible into the correct position which is below humankind. It was made for you, not you for it. That does not mean you should ignore the Bible, but it means you need to put arguments in their place and the meanings of words in their place. These are not a central part of the Bible student's life. Calling other people liars and stubborn arguing are both idolatry. (Romans 3:4 "Let God be true and every man a liar"), just as being too factual about your own interpretations is idolatrous. Its considered boastful to be too matter of fact about things that rely upon mere words. Its putting humanity above God.

James is a very short and terrific book which talks about the same things using mirrors as examples. I like to paraphrase him and give my spin on what James means: The Bible is one of two mirrors which you have to turn and move around different ways to see the whole head. Mirrors are imperfect, but they do reflect the image. The Bible is one mirror and you are the second mirror, and the two together help you to see God's head. James says looking in the mirror is doing good things, not just listening to words (though not forgetting them) . Focusing on words instead of actions it is like you have glanced at the mirror and then looked away without really getting the picture. It is God that you want to see but also your own perfected image reflected back at you through the Bible and your good living. (James 1:23) You might also think of it as looking into your future, to the person you will become.

P.S. Any ideas on where thoughts come from?

I don't, so I just accept that they are. Its like the entire fact of our existence which doesn't seem to be possible. Thoughts came ultimately from wherever we came from.

 

[Thomas]

So am I to understand that no matter how many times a person sins against me I am to forgive them, completely and from the heart, and if I keep sinning against God after hearing the gospel of Jesus I'll burn in hell?

Depends whether you think Jesus can find it in His heart to forgive you ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Princely]

Watch out for those who know nothing of the law and the prophets for they are like a seed that has landed on rock where it cannot grow for lack of soil. They say thinks such as; If you love people and are thoughtful, kind, generous, you will be keeping what the scriptures say. These people are trying to tell you what scripture says and in so doing are hypocrites for doing just what they claim they do not by interpreting scripture incorrectly. Read the scriptures and "give to God what is Gods" then your blessing will be great in the kingdom of your heavenly Father.


"Keep the commandments of the Lord by walking in His ways and revering Him.
Keep the ways of the Lord by doing what is right and just."says the Lord.

"I will put salvation in Zion and give to Israel my glory. My glory I give to no other."

"No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit."

"No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

 

[Jimmer]

Before you can begin to talk about Satan in the Bible and about Jesus overcoming the world, you have to put the Bible into the correct position which is below humankind. It was made for you, not you for it. That does not mean you should ignore the Bible, but it means you need to put arguments in their place and the meanings of words in their place.

John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

The Bible is the Word, and Jesus is/was/will be the Word made flesh. How can the Bible be below mankind?

 

[seattlegal]

John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

The Bible is the Word, and Jesus is/was/will be the Word made flesh. How can the Bible be below mankind?

The term used in John 1 is Logos.

Here's the wiki link on Logos

 

[Thomas]

It's not 'below' mankind — else everything in Scripture would be lesser than our aspiration ... whereas it's quite obvious that Scripture sets a standard which mankind is singularly unable to aspire to without divine assistance.

God bless

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

If Jesus overcame the world, why is Satan still in charge of it?

He's not ... were that so, then you would never have heard of the name Jesus.

Jesus did not come to make us slaves, but set us free ... Satan makes slaves, and the flesh is weak ... Satan rules only when and where man chooses to let him rule.

If he reversed the original curse, why do we still toil in work and women have difficulty in giving birth?

If He had done that, then the proof that Jesus is God would be inarguable, wouldn't it?

It's about undoing what is wrong, but it's not about 'time-tricks' or waving a wand and making everything as it was ... Christianity ain't no fairy-tale ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Dream]

Jimmer, what they said works. I will just go along with that.

It's not 'below' mankind — else everything in Scripture would be lesser than our aspiration ... whereas it's quite obvious that Scripture sets a standard which mankind is singularly unable to aspire to without divine assistance.

God bless

Thomas

Perhaps it was an oversimplification. There isn't this idea of making everybody into clones who all say the same things. Instead there seems to be confidence that truth will come in another way, through the midst of everyone. Here are a couple of verses which seem to denote a respect for either God in each other or God's image in each other and a particularly cautious attitude against taking a stubborn stance about controversial issues.

Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

I Corinthians 8:1,2,3 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.

 

[wil]

No, I'm not trolling but I've never been intensive in Bible study either. Most of my experience out of Sunday School/Church has been the 'Bible verse a day to keep the devil away' kind of reading but lots of it just doesn't make any sense to me.

If Jesus overcame the world, why is Satan still in charge of it? If he reversed the original curse, why do we still toil in work and women have difficulty in giving birth? It sounds strange but I think about God during much of my day, usually ranging from absolute awe to genuine anger against Him. I'm grateful my sister pointed me to this site, lots of great info here, thanks all!

P.S. Any ideas on where thoughts come from?

Lots to contemplate....and yes tens of thousands of churches do millions of children and the churches themselves a disservice by telling children the fairy tales they do... do we tell kids the stove is hot, or do we tell them some mythology and let them figure it out??

Depends whether you think Jesus can find it in His heart to forgive you ...

God bless,

Thomas

Yikes.... Don't know where you are going there Thomas. I hope I am safe to assume the operative words here are "depends on whether you think" and not "Jesus can find it in his heart"

Yuppers Jimmer....salvation....forgive 70x7 and our lord is forgiving yet you are gonna be sent to hell if you don't commit yourself to Jesus in this one lifetime....yup you make this blunder and the all forgiving will toss you into the abyss...

Makes zero sense eh?

John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

The Bible is the Word, and Jesus is/was/will be the Word made flesh. How can the Bible be below mankind?

Gotta remember that word is man's word....men wrote hundreds of books, other men selected 66 of those books and made them cannonical and a some of them 'gospel', me thinks if they all had 2,000 years of hindsight they would have done it differently.... oy vey.

He's not ... were that so, then you would never have heard of the name Jesus.

Jesus did not come to make us slaves, but set us free ... Satan makes slaves, and the flesh is weak ... Satan rules only when and where man chooses to let him rule.


If He had done that, then the proof that Jesus is God would be inarguable, wouldn't it?

It's about undoing what is wrong, but it's not about 'time-tricks' or waving a wand and making everything as it was ... Christianity ain't no fairy-tale ...

God bless,

Thomas

a-amen, a-amen, a-amen, amen amen!

Tell it on the mountain brother.

And so it is!

 

[Thomas]

... ...yup you make this blunder and the all forgiving will toss you into the abyss... Makes zero sense eh?

It would make no sense if it was truly a blunder, only it's not a blunder, that's the point. We don't need Jesus to tell us to love our neighbour, but the message seems to be that's the way God works, that's the way God is, and any other way is not the way at all ...

I rest in the hope of faith that, the love of God being infinite, I will be forgiven ... but to assume that, and carry on doing just as I like, and then try and trump heaven by dropping the name of Jesus at the gate ... that, it seems to me, is one hell of a blunder.

The way I see it, because my partner says she loves me does not give me the writ to carry on as if nothing had changed – in fact she made it quite clear that she would not stand for any shenanigans – and I changed my ways. I love her and our fidelity is rock solid ... but I find my love for myself too easily and too often stands in the way of my love of my neighbour ...

Love will not see justice mocked ...

Jesus pointed out that man is attached to his sin; Buddha pointed out that man is attached to his suffering ... that all point out that man is attached to the world, and attachments have consequences.

But the flipside is, we all believe in the idols we create, don't we?

Thomas