Salvation

[Jimmer]

Jesus did not come to make us slaves, but set us free ... Satan makes slaves, and the flesh is weak ... Satan rules only when and where man chooses to let him rule.

Is it true that everything and everyone ever made or that ever will be made God created for a very specific purpose, including Satan and his demons? If Satan is leading mankind into an everlasting hell/separation from God, why does God allow him to exist? I know the Bible says he will be cast into the lake of fire (hell?), why wait? Whenever I think about "Spiritual warfare" the idea seems bizarre to me as God created all the combatants. It seems like it's all just a big universal game for Him. I find it depressing to think that God allows Satan to exist, knowing he will convince the majority of mankind to follow him into eternal damnation.

Satan rules only when and where I choose to let him rule; "Resist the devil and he will flee", I can't think of that verse without thinking that God created the devil. It's like a parent telling their kid to stand up to a bully, and then going to a bully and telling him to tease their kid to "teach them a lesson".

Thanks for your replies, gives me something to ponder on

 

[Thomas]

Hi Jimmer — welcome to the forum, by the way ...

Is it true that everything and everyone ever made or that ever will be made God created for a very specific purpose...

If we accept that 'God is Good' or 'God is Love', then the Good or Love, is the source of all things ... and the end of all things ... so I cannot conceive of a Good that causes something to be for a bad end, or that Love creates something that is not meant to be loved ...

I think the danger is in thinking of God as someone 'micro-managing' everything everyone does (and He'd have to micromanage the life of every sub-atomic particle, by the same rule) ...

But when God creates, He knows not only the rising of things (which in in Himself) but also the end of things (which is in Himself)

+++

If Satan is leading mankind into an everlasting hell/separation from God, why does God allow him to exist?

God said, let us make man in our own image ... now firstly, God has no 'image', God is not contained nor confined by anything. So what Scripture is saying is that God wants His creation to enjoy the suprabeing that God is ... and this means 'freedom'.

If man is not free, then all his religious aspirations — no matter what religion — are a nonsense. In spiritual terms he is pre-programmed, the die is cast, and no matter what he does, nothing is going to change that. So why bother with God or neighbour, it's not going to change anything?

All the Great Traditions assert that man is free within the context of creation (you're not so free as to be able to jump off cliffs or swim in volcanoes) — but the one, ontological freedom, the one freedom from which all other freedoms derive, is the freedom to accept or deny the will of God.

The Scripture story of the Fall tells us this — that our freedom is a gift, but man saw it as a right, as something to possess — and as soon as he tried to possess it, he lost it.

So my view is separation from God is not something that God wills, but something that man wills, by putting his own will first.

Whenever I think about "Spiritual warfare" the idea seems bizarre to me as God created all the combatants.

I think people tend to read spiritual warfare as me against S•t•n and his hordes. A silly mistake, as we wouldn't stand a chance ...

The true 'spiritual warfare' is within the self, the place in which my will/thy will is decided. The toughest battle is to love one's neighbour ... not one's friend, but the others ... (It's the true meaning of jihad, according to Moslem esoterism).

I find it depressing to think that God allows Satan to exist, knowing he will convince the majority of mankind to follow him into eternal damnation.

S•t•n is the personification of a negative tendency. I'm not saying he doesn't exist, and I find it more depressing that modern western culture, the first culture ever to cut the tie to some kind of religious aspiration, convinces itself that he doesn't ...

I can't think of that verse without thinking that God created the devil.

God didn't. People who say that really don't understand 'God' ... to say God is the cause of evil is a nonsense, as evil is that which God does not will, so how can God will what God does not will? It's a logical contradiction.

That God allows evil is something else.

But then, I didn't kill my kids the first time they were naughty.

God does not will what God does not will, but if man is to be truly free, then for that freedom to be real, God must allow for man to do other than 'the right thing' ... and eventually God must allow for man to refuse the love of God.

I don't believe in hell as a burning lake of fire, but I do believe in extinction. Christ offers eternal life in God, the opposite is not suffering, but separation and abandonment (Gehenna) ... and the ultimate separation from God is non-existence.

But if you ask people, what fate is worse, a burning lake of fire, or nothing, then the burning lake of fire has more power, which shows just how much we are enslaved to the senses ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[fadded blue jeans]

Newb here, just a need some clarification here-

Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

NIV

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

NIV

So am I to understand that no matter how many times a person sins against me I am to forgive them, completely and from the heart, and if I keep sinning against God after hearing the gospel of Jesus I'll burn in hell?

Any thoughts would be helpful, thanks!

the Lords prayer includes
forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others .


Luther was right just think about it. what Our lord Jesus prayer was all about .

WHAT DO sins aginst sinners really amount to any way ? if God who has no sin can forgive us our sins against Him --what right would we who are full of sin have to begrudge other sinners our forgivness?

and besides luther was right again .. in the end evil life does no real harm except to itself..

a person who leads a evil life will find that truth easly proved out on judgement day..
there the evil person will see his crimes no matter how uggly against those who have faith in Jesus merits alone --------- have no real lasting effect against Jesus's elect at all ..

 

[Jimmer]

God didn't. People who say that really don't understand 'God' ... to say God is the cause of evil is a nonsense, as evil is that which God does not will, so how can God will what God does not will? It's a logical contradiction.



Thomas

How would you then explain Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." KJV

 

[Dream]

Its a very intelligent question, but if you will allow me I think Isaiah 45:7 does not contradict what Thomas said.

Isaiah 45:7 probably almost certainly is a reminder of the blessing and the curses section of the laws around Deuteronomy 30:1. These were intimately known by Isaiah's intended recipients, and there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the LORD wanted Israel to prosper. If Israel did what was right & sane they would succeed, but if they did what was wrong & stupid they would fail. In English we call it the blessings and cursings. The cursings are the conditional darkness and destruction that the LORD promised Israel if they broke the laws. It was not the LORD's intent to do Israel harm but to do them good by means of these laws. If you want to extend the concepts of Isaiah 45:7 to people in general (who are not ancient Israelis), then you need to paraphrase it: "If people do what is good, then they will benefit it but if not then they won't." This is not the advice of someone cruel but of someone giving very motherly advice.

This is why, for example, you don't encourage someone if they are trying to do something bad or stupid. It would be like wishing them harm, wishing them to experience the bad results of their actions. You only encourage people doing good works. In doing so you aid them and the work they are doing, and this is what is called wishing them 'Godspeed' or blessing their actions. This is generally the idea of blessing, but there is a point beyond which a person's friends, government and others will no longer warn them to change their ways, because they have been too stubborn to listen. That person is 'Cursed', because they must experience the results of their actions in order to learn.