The Prophecy of the Scapegoat

Ben Masada said:
You say above that "Jesus died for much better reason than to pardon lawless people." Would you please elaborate on that? What, for instance, would be a better reason to die for, than for the sins of lawless people?
Ben
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to show them how to atone for their OWN deeds? just throwing that out there....
 
Ben Masada said:
BrotherMichaelSky said:
Satan has nothing to do with anything because it does not exist as a real being, but as a concept. The adversary here is the etimology for the evil inclination in man. Just an emanation. That's the adversary included in our tradition. Therefore, the real being here is man and not satan or devil, for that matter.

This book of Enoch you have insisted twice above, I have never read it. So, I can't volunteer an opinion about it. And if you wonder about my use of "we," it is based on the opinions of some of the learned among us that coincide with mine.
Ben
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I understand. I have received differing opinions - but that is the most common one i have heard...
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BrotherMichaelSky said:
Ben Masada said:
Ben, there is no way to escape the Book of Enoch in the matters you are discussing....
the chain goes directly back to it when you start researching concepts....
over and over....

sometimes one MUST go to avoided books when researching this stuff... or your line of reasoning simply derails....

quotes from the Book of Enoch are easily found within early Christian writings, which you seem to have studied a little - how could you have never even glanced at it? even the Jews in my spiritual circles have at least HEARD of it....
I'm stumped here Ben, and I understand why SOME of my thoughts seem so foreign to you....
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Yes, you ain't kidding. They surely do.
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BrotherMichaelSky said:
Ben Masada said:
what if I told you that it is a Jewish belief that a man, if he does not complete his first incarnation in one go - holding to ALL the Laws - will have to come back and try again.... and each time he fails, it will get more and more difficult...
while the Woman is perfect to start, and only incarnates more than once to assist her "other half" through this minefield.... ?

Had you known this perspective existed?
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IMHO, such a belief is only the product of the imagination among the unlearned. Unless it is supposed to be interpreted metaphorically to have some meaning.
Ben
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Ben Masada said:
You say above that "Jesus died for much better reason than to pardon lawless people." Would you please elaborate on that? What, for instance, would be a better reason to die for, than for the sins of lawless people?
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Dying so that good people can do wrongs is not a good reason to die, but dying to help many people learn to do right, helping them live better, that is a worthy death. Its a reward.

Referring to Hebrews 12, discipline is unpleasant but benefits children. A child that gets no discipline is uncared for, and analogously a believer who suffers for doing good things shouldn't take it as a discouragement. It doesn't mean they should compromise, and no one should be immoral or they will be rejected. In 12:2, it says that for joy Jesus endured the cross, a joy due to the addition of many new brothers. On the same note, 1 Peter 1 talks about suffering, too. Like Jesus suffered, the readers should be willing to endure some suffering, and 1Peter 1:12 says that the prophets learned "that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."

When Jesus told his disciples to speak only to Jews he told them "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest." Luke 10:2. He was not only calling individuals to himself but calling workers for some kind of large harvest. If Jews were the workers, then perhaps gentiles were the harvest.
 
Dream said:
Dying so that good people can do wrongs is not a good reason to die, but dying to help many people learn to do right, helping them live better, that is a worthy death. Its a reward.

Referring to Hebrews 12, discipline is unpleasant but benefits children. A child that gets no discipline is uncared for, and analogously a believer who suffers for doing good things shouldn't take it as a discouragement. It doesn't mean they should compromise, and no one should be immoral or they will be rejected. In 12:2, it says that for joy Jesus endured the cross, a joy due to the addition of many new brothers. On the same note, 1 Peter 1 talks about suffering, too. Like Jesus suffered, the readers should be willing to endure some suffering, and 1Peter 1:12 says that the prophets learned "that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."

When Jesus told his disciples to speak only to Jews he told them "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest." Luke 10:2. He was not only calling individuals to himself but calling workers for some kind of large harvest. If Jews were the workers, then perhaps gentiles were the harvest.
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The Harvest is started by first pulling the tares and burning them at the "end of the age". The primary description of the "tares" is "THOSE WHO COMMIT LAWLESSNESS". (Mt 13:41) Being as a fair portion of the forum posters hang their hats on the unknown dead writers of Hebrews and Acts, and the self professed apostle Paul, all which pander "Lawlessness", maybe they will be able to text us what the "furnace" of fire is actually like. Not that I personally care to know, but it might make a good forum topic for those who survive the first gathering. Keep your cell phones charged and make sure your thumb skills are honed for speed. You may be able to get a sentence sent before the fires cripple your texting device.
 
Showme said:
The Harvest is started by first pulling the tares and burning them at the "end of the age". The primary description of the "tares" is "THOSE WHO COMMIT LAWLESSNESS". (Mt 13:41) Being as a fair portion of the forum posters hang their hats on the unknown dead writers of Hebrews and Acts, and the self professed apostle Paul, all which pander "Lawlessness", maybe they will be able to text us what the "furnace" of fire is actually like. Not that I personally care to know, but it might make a good forum topic for those who survive the first gathering. Keep your cell phones charged and make sure your thumb skills are honed for speed. You may be able to get a sentence sent before the fires cripple your texting device.
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Showme, first of all I value you, and I feel as if you and I are practically the same person though that isn't possible. The way you talk is like the beat of my own heart, and though feelings are fleeting that is what I feel. Maybe I know you or something. You do not irritate me or offend me, either; and I would not want to in any way devalue your significant intelligence, nor do I wish to bribe or flatter anyone including yourself.

I consider that a person is neither wheat nor a tare except by what they do. Whatever good you do, that is valuable, but whatever bad you do is worthless to Jesus. This parable is a parable about time, good works and bad works. The harvest field in the passage is a period of time, and the good works being gathered are the good works required to make God's will be done upon earth, just like its done in heaven. This work requires a long, long period of time the end of which may not be visible to us; so its called an 'Epoch' in Greek. You can translate it as 'World', but it literally means 'An age'. Mat 13:38-39 "The field is the epoch...the harvest is the close of the epoch." In this field which is an age the stock of each plant (you) looks identical to any other, but your works (the fruit) are what matter. Christians have good works (wheat) and bad works (tares), but the only challenge is to gather enough good works to bring the end of the age, the completion of Jesus work.

Many people have lived and died since Jesus first appeared. The age is called the harvest and when the alpha and omega of the faith (Jesus) finishes his harvest, there will be there will be enough wheat (good works) gathered to accomplish everything. Paul alludes to Jesus parable when he says "Every man's work is to be tested with fire" and Hebrews 9:27 says "It is given to a man once to die and then the judgement."

A Christian must produce spiritual fruit, or they are a 'Tare'. Their stalk does not matter. Through doing good works and living right, the Christian is producing fruit which has value and will not be burned, and the angels will use it. The judgement began at the beginning of the field of time and lasts all the way until the end of the harvest of time, all of which is the age of time in which Jesus continues to work through Christians. We cannot see the end of the field yet, but we know what it will be like. We know the pile of wheat will be large enough to provide enough good works to make the field worthwhile. If this were not so, the farmer would have abandoned the field instead of beginning to harvest it. To God, everything is already 'Finished' or grown, so it is a matter of harvesting what has been grown. That is why at the end of the seventh day of creation someone says 'It is finished' even though things are still happening within creation. Revelation is a book to encourage you to continue keeping on and to believe that you are created in Christ for good works, that your good works matter and will accumulate. When you do good, you are fighting against satan, are casting out the ruler of darkness and are keeping watch for the return of Jesus. You are part of the book Revelation and a plant in the field in this excellent age, the end of which is something to look forward to. All of the verses below I view in this same context.

  • John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;
  • Ecclesiastes 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than its beginning; and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.
  • Revelation 20:9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
  • 2 Peter 3-5...8,9 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever
    since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,... But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count
 
Dream said:
Showme, first of all I value you, and I feel as if you and I are practically the same person though that isn't possible. The way you talk is like the beat of my own heart, and though feelings are fleeting that is what I feel. Maybe I know you or something. You do not irritate me or offend me, either; and I would not want to in any way devalue your significant intelligence, nor do I wish to bribe or flatter anyone including yourself.

I consider that a person is neither wheat nor a tare except by what they do. Whatever good you do, that is valuable, but whatever bad you do is worthless to Jesus. This parable is a parable about time, good works and bad works. The harvest field in the passage is a period of time, and the good works being gathered are the good works required to make God's will be done upon earth, just like its done in heaven. This work requires a long, long period of time the end of which may not be visible to us; so its called an 'Epoch' in Greek. You can translate it as 'World', but it literally means 'An age'. Mat 13:38-39 "The field is the epoch...the harvest is the close of the epoch." In this field which is an age the stock of each plant (you) looks identical to any other, but your works (the fruit) are what matter. Christians have good works (wheat) and bad works (tares), but the only challenge is to gather enough good works to bring the end of the age, the completion of Jesus work.

Many people have lived and died since Jesus first appeared. The age is called the harvest and when the alpha and omega of the faith (Jesus) finishes his harvest, there will be there will be enough wheat (good works) gathered to accomplish everything. Paul alludes to Jesus parable when he says "Every man's work is to be tested with fire" and Hebrews 9:27 says "It is given to a man once to die and then the judgement."

A Christian must produce spiritual fruit, or they are a 'Tare'. Their stalk does not matter. Through doing good works and living right, the Christian is producing fruit which has value and will not be burned, and the angels will use it. The judgement began at the beginning of the field of time and lasts all the way until the end of the harvest of time, all of which is the age of time in which Jesus continues to work through Christians. We cannot see the end of the field yet, but we know what it will be like. We know the pile of wheat will be large enough to provide enough good works to make the field worthwhile. If this were not so, the farmer would have abandoned the field instead of beginning to harvest it. To God, everything is already 'Finished' or grown, so it is a matter of harvesting what has been grown. That is why at the end of the seventh day of creation someone says 'It is finished' even though things are still happening within creation. Revelation is a book to encourage you to continue keeping on and to believe that you are created in Christ for good works, that your good works matter and will accumulate. When you do good, you are fighting against satan, are casting out the ruler of darkness and are keeping watch for the return of Jesus. You are part of the book Revelation and a plant in the field in this excellent age, the end of which is something to look forward to. All of the verses below I view in this same context.

  • John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out;
  • Ecclesiastes 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than its beginning; and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.
  • Revelation 20:9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
  • 2 Peter 3-5...8,9 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever
    since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation."5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water,... But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count
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You failed to address my assertion. The tares are allowed to grow among the wheat, and this so that the wheat will not be damaged prior to becoming ripe. Once the wheat is ripe, it cannot be damaged, and only has to be winnowed. The the over riding description of the tares is that they "commit lawlessnes". "Stumbling Blocks", such as the pope supposedly being the "rock" the church is built on will be done away, and the "stumbling block" of doing an altar call will save you, will be done away with. The "stumbling block" of thinking the Roman church can set a canon will also be done away. I addressed the descriptive tares, not the good seed, the wheat. That would be for someone else to bring up.

As for what Yeshua describes as the "good seed", he says in Mt 13:37," ..as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom".

As for what Paul says, he is all things to all men. A good deceiver mixes good with bad. He will quote the Law and the prophets, which is good, and give an erroneous description, which is bad. An example being his quote of Dt 19:15, whereas every matter must be confirmed by two witnesses. Paul thinks if he repeats and assertion at least 2 times, it has fulfilled this Scripture. (2 Cor 13:1-2) The man has must have been born in the same crib as Obama.
 
Dream said:
Dying so that good people can do wrongs is not a good reason to die, but dying to help many people learn to do right, helping them live better, that is a worthy death. Its a reward.

Referring to Hebrews 12, discipline is unpleasant but benefits children. A child that gets no discipline is uncared for, and analogously a believer who suffers for doing good things shouldn't take it as a discouragement. It doesn't mean they should compromise, and no one should be immoral or they will be rejected. In 12:2, it says that for joy Jesus endured the cross, a joy due to the addition of many new brothers. On the same note, 1 Peter 1 talks about suffering, too. Like Jesus suffered, the readers should be willing to endure some suffering, and 1Peter 1:12 says that the prophets learned "that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."

When Jesus told his disciples to speak only to Jews he told them "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest." Luke 10:2. He was not only calling individuals to himself but calling workers for some kind of large harvest. If Jews were the workers, then perhaps gentiles were the harvest.
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Dream, there is nothing in life worth dying for. There are some things worth fighting for, but to dye for? Nothing whatsoever.

And for your saying above that "For joy, Jesus endured the cross," I would like to remind you that he prayed three times in the Gethsemane crying and asking God to remove that cup from him so that he did not have to die on the cross. What kind of joy was that? The poor fella was forced into the "joy" of the cross against his own will, as he said, "Be thy will done and not mine." It means that it was not his will to "enjoy" the cross.
Ben
 
Showme, many people have died (been harvested) before now, and so I thought I was addressing what you'd said. The Devil 'Sowed' the tares, but as you must realize there have been lawless people born hundreds of years after the age began. You asserted that "The Harvest is started by first pulling the tares and burning them 'at the end of the age,' " but this was a paraphrase by you. Jesus parable says that the harvest is the end of the age, not that the harvest happens at the time of the end, and there is a difference of meaning. You have in mind that he means all harvesting happens at one time, but that's not the only possibility. Its a parable, and in the real world people have been living and dying from that time until now, and consider the term 'Harvest'. When farmers talk about a 'Harvest' they often mean the total amount of product harvested whether it takes 1 day or 5 days to get the harvesting done. They may plant all year and harvest all year, yet they may refer to their 'Harvest' or their 'Crop'. The total number of people harvested is called the 'Full Number' in Romans 11:25, also adding to this suspicion. 'The harvest is the end of the age' easily can mean something other than you have imagined for it. I am only suggesting a different paraphrase than you have used. Consider this paraphrase: "When the full number has come in -- then the age is complete, not before." This matches "The harvest is the end of the age" and it also fits well with I Corinthians 15:24-25 which says "each in his own order...then comes the end". I realize you are not sympathetic with Paul, but it still needs to be mentioned that here he is in synch with the general scheme.


  • I Corinthians 15:24-25 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
 
Ben Masada said:
Dream, there is nothing in life worth dying for. There are some things worth fighting for, but to dye for? Nothing whatsoever.
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Yes, in general nothing in life can be worth dying for, however aren't we all going to die regardless?

And for your saying above that "For joy, Jesus endured the cross," I would like to remind you that he prayed three times in the Gethsemane crying and asking God to remove that cup from him so that he did not have to die on the cross. What kind of joy was that? The poor fella was forced into the "joy" of the cross against his own will, as he said, "Be thy will done and not mine." It means that it was not his will to "enjoy" the cross.
Ben
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The idea is that the joy was worth multiples of the suffering.

Speaking of cups: I wonder if you see a connection with Psalm 116 here? The Garden of Gethsemane story reminds me of Psalm 116 because there seem to be commonalities between what the psalmist is dealing with and what Jesus is dealing with, but I don't know what the 'Cup of salvation' is to the psalmist. Jesus refers to his suffering as a cup, possibly alluding to this psalm to use it as an emphatic prayer for his own life to be spared. I'm not sure in this psalm what exactly is going on. Does the cup in this palm involve suffering?
 
Dream said:
Showme, many people have died (been harvested) before now, and so I thought I was addressing what you'd said. The Devil 'Sowed' the tares, but as you must realize there have been lawless people born hundreds of years after the age began. You asserted that "The Harvest is started by first pulling the tares and burning them 'at the end of the age,' " but this was a paraphrase by you. Jesus parable says that the harvest is the end of the age, not that the harvest happens at the time of the end, and there is a difference of meaning. You have in mind that he means all harvesting happens at one time, but that's not the only possibility. Its a parable, and in the real world people have been living and dying from that time until now, and consider the term 'Harvest'. When farmers talk about a 'Harvest' they often mean the total amount of product harvested whether it takes 1 day or 5 days to get the harvesting done. They may plant all year and harvest all year, yet they may refer to their 'Harvest' or their 'Crop'. The total number of people harvested is called the 'Full Number' in Romans 11:25, also adding to this suspicion. 'The harvest is the end of the age' easily can mean something other than you have imagined for it. I am only suggesting a different paraphrase than you have used. Consider this paraphrase: "When the full number has come in -- then the age is complete, not before." This matches "The harvest is the end of the age" and it also fits well with I Corinthians 15:24-25 which says "each in his own order...then comes the end". I realize you are not sympathetic with Paul, but it still needs to be mentioned that here he is in synch with the general scheme.


  • I Corinthians 15:24-25 "But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
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It is you who are paraphrasing. Mt 13:27-30," And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares? And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this! And the slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' "But he said 'No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them. 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the haravest zI will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares; and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."

The parable was about wheat not cucumbers. The wheat is harvested as soon as it is ripe, and this is done at one time. The tare seeds were spread by the "enemy", and were to be left in place until the harvest, to protect the roots of the wheat. Yeshua was prophecising the coming of Paul and his disciples, and was telling his disciples to leave them in place.

You can try and twist what Yeshua said, but it remains same. The tares will be gathered before the wheat. The tares and the "stumbling blocks" remain in place. As for your time element, the tares were sown at the same time as the good seed. The good seed is the "word of the kingdom" (Mt 13:19). The "Christian" church does not teach the "word of the kingdom", but Paul's gospel.
 
showme said:
It is you who are paraphrasing.
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Yes, I paraphrased it explicitly and told you that I was doing so, but you paraphrased without any notification.

You can try and twist what Yeshua said, but it remains same.
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What we have is a disagreement, and by the way 'Yeshua' sounds like some kind of vacuum cleaner. If God sent the scripture, then God alone decides ultimately what it means, and all we can do is try to understand it. John wrote about this when he said "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Well, do you or don't you have any sin? Are you really so correct all the time? "Oh thank you God that I'm not like Dream who's always getting his scriptures wrong! What a screwed up fellow he is and how fortunate that I have the truth!"
 
Dream said:
Yes, I paraphrased it explicitly and told you that I was doing so, but you paraphrased without any notification.

What we have is a disagreement, and by the way 'Yeshua' sounds like some kind of vacuum cleaner. If God sent the scripture, then God alone decides ultimately what it means, and all we can do is try to understand it. John wrote about this when he said "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Well, do you or don't you have any sin? Are you really so correct all the time? "Oh thank you God that I'm not like Dream who's always getting his scriptures wrong! What a screwed up fellow he is and how fortunate that I have the truth!"
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Joshua would be the English version. Jesus would be the 16th Centruy version, which could be misinterpreted as "pig eater". As Yeshua didn't eat pork, I thought the term Jesus would be a little disrepectful.

As for how Scripture is understood, that is by the Spirit of God.
Mt 13:52, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old"

Mt 11:25," hide things from wise and reveal to babes"

1 John 2:27," you do not need anyone to teach you"

John 14:26," But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,...."

If one is born in the "Word", then the Helper is there to teach all things. Paul is not needed, your bishops are not needed, the Vicar of Rome is not needed, what is needed is the Spirit of God.

As far as getting your Scriptures wrong, you are trying to incorporate what God said into what some self professed apostle said. It isn't going to work. But it is good that you know yourself. Plato was big on the maxim of knowing oneself.

As for sin, look to 1 John 3:6,"...No one who lives in him keeps on sinning."
Isaiah 59:2 "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God".
 
Showme said:
Joshua would be the English version. Jesus would be the 16th Centruy version, which could be misinterpreted as "pig eater". As Yeshua didn't eat pork, I thought the term Jesus would be a little disrepectful.
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That makes some sense. I do remember Jesus saying that anything spoken against the 'son of man' would be forgiven. I hope that it doesn't matter too much what we call him, because a lot of people have been calling him Yesu, Jesu and so forth.

As for how Scripture is understood, that is by the Spirit of God.
Mt 13:52, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings forth out of his treasure things new and old"

Mt 11:25," hide things from wise and reveal to babes"

1 John 2:27," you do not need anyone to teach you"

John 14:26," But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,...."
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I would like to mention that a 'Babe' might be someone who follows or possibly just meditates on the Law of Moses. Moses Law is basic training in morality which changes the person inwardly to help them to mature into a responsible person. I don't do the law myself, but once I started to read it and think about it I found it to be encouraging. (I'm not sure if that counts as drinking the milk or if you'd have to actually keep the sabbaths and do all the activities, though doing all the activities would enhance the effect.) A step up from being a law student (call them a milk-drinker) is being a prophet or a judge anointed with the spirit of wisdom. Then what Jesus is saying about hiding things from the wise and revealing to babes describes the dissonance between the way that the 'People' perceived him and the way that 'Leadership' perceived him.

To me the definition of 'Babe' is complicated, and as a non-scholar I'm making a guess. Jesus says we are to be childlike, but perhaps what he means by this is that we should study the law. This quote from him might be a reference from which christians get the concept of spiritual adoption of the gentiles. It relates to/depends upon how much stock you can put into gentiles meditating on the law and being influenced by the holy spirit versus a gentile who gets circumcised and does the whole shebang.

If one is born in the "Word", then the Helper is there to teach all things. Paul is not needed, your bishops are not needed, the Vicar of Rome is not needed, what is needed is the Spirit of God.
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It may seem that I have been arguing for the bishops and all that, but that is not my position. I'm not an ironclad Paul supporter. I'm all tangled in it. I have been fortunate to discuss these things with very intelligent people, and I have been able to move in multiple circles. I'm trying to give Paul a fair chance for several reasons. First I'm just starting to understand him, second my relatives are under his influence, third everybody has a copy of him in their living room. Fourth, I have to decide for myself what actions to take as I am presently independent. It is very difficult for me to submit to the opinions of others. I don't mind if they have a different opinion.

As far as getting your Scriptures wrong, you are trying to incorporate what God said into what some self professed apostle said. It isn't going to work. But it is good that you know yourself. Plato was big on the maxim of knowing oneself.
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Could be, but I think that I could reconstruct 75% or more of what Paul says from the Tanach combined with what Jesus and some of the other apostles say. Much material has been lost.

As for sin, look to 1 John 3:6,"...No one who lives in him keeps on sinning."
Isaiah 59:2 "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God".
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By now you are tired of reading my post, but please persevere. :p You seem like someone who accepts that reading the Bible isn't always easy. This verse in 1 John 3:6 depends upon what it means to you to be 'In him', and since John has this whole thing of light <=> truth going on it gets a little bit complicated. John is (they say) the same author who writes a gospel, John, in which he writes 0John 3:21 "But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God." As you can see for John the person comes into the light. They do not become the light, though in other gospels Jesus disciples can be lights through their good works. When speaking of the logos, there is only one logos which dwells among us. ( I say 'Us' assuming we are ones that have come into the 'Light'.) Similarly, John the Baptist says "I am not the Christ but have been sent before him." 3:28. Similarly you can be Christian, but you cannot be Christ yourself. You can only be in him, of him, by him etc. Now you have imperfections, but in Christ there are no imperfections. This is part of the mystery of atonement by which imperfections are atoned for, so that you may be in Christ. Not that it is a mystery any more but it was a mystery for a long time to most people.
 
Dream said:
That makes some sense. I do remember Jesus saying that anything spoken against the 'son of man' would be forgiven. I hope that it doesn't matter too much what we call him, because a lot of people have been calling him Yesu, Jesu and so forth.
I would like to mention that a 'Babe' might be someone who follows or possibly just meditates on the Law of Moses. Moses Law is basic training in morality which changes the person inwardly to help them to mature into a responsible person. I don't do the law myself, but once I started to read it and think about it I found it to be encouraging. (I'm not sure if that counts as drinking the milk or if you'd have to actually keep the sabbaths and do all the activities, though doing all the activities would enhance the effect.) A step up from being a law student (call them a milk-drinker) is being a prophet or a judge anointed with the spirit of wisdom. Then what Jesus is saying about hiding things from the wise and revealing to babes describes the dissonance between the way that the 'People' perceived him and the way that 'Leadership' perceived him.
To me the definition of 'Babe' is complicated, and as a non-scholar I'm making a guess. Jesus says we are to be childlike, but perhaps what he means by this is that we should study the law. This quote from him might be a reference from which christians get the concept of spiritual adoption of the gentiles. It relates to/depends upon how much stock you can put into gentiles meditating on the law and being influenced by the holy spirit versus a gentile who gets circumcised and does the whole shebang.
It may seem that I have been arguing for the bishops and all that, but that is not my position. I'm not an ironclad Paul supporter. I'm all tangled in it. I have been fortunate to discuss these things with very intelligent people, and I have been able to move in multiple circles. I'm trying to give Paul a fair chance for several reasons. First I'm just starting to understand him, second my relatives are under his influence, third everybody has a copy of him in their living room. Fourth, I have to decide for myself what actions to take as I am presently independent. It is very difficult for me to submit to the opinions of others. I don't mind if they have a different opinion.

Showme reponds in red:
I think you miss the point. Yeshua was glad that the “wise and intelligent” do not understand. It is the child who believes in his Father, and follows his direction.

Could be, but I think that I could reconstruct 75% or more of what Paul says from the Tanach combined with what Jesus and some of the other apostles say. Much material has been lost.
By now you are tired of reading my post, but please persevere.

Everyone seems to think they understand Paul, because he meant to be understood by different people in different ways. To a Roman as a Roman, and to a jew as a jew. He was all things to all people. Add 2 Peter 3:16, written by some unknown author, and you have people thinking that if they understand Paul, that they are not untaught and unstable. If you can reconstruct Paul from the “Tanach”, then I suggest that you go the Tanach directly, but it a more straight forward way, with continuity of thought.

You seem like someone who accepts that reading the Bible isn't always easy. This verse in 1 John 3:6 depends upon what it means to you to be 'In him', and since John has this whole thing of light <=> truth going on it gets a little bit complicated. John is (they say) the same author who writes a gospel, John, in which he writes 0John 3:21 "But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God." As you can see for John the person comes into the light. They do not become the light, though in other gospels Jesus disciples can be lights through their good works. When speaking of the logos, there is only one logos which dwells among us. ( I say 'Us' assuming we are ones that have come into the 'Light'.) Similarly, John the Baptist says "I am not the Christ but have been sent before him." 3:28. Similarly you can be Christian, but you cannot be Christ yourself. You can only be in him, of him, by him etc. Now you have imperfections, but in Christ there are no imperfections. This is part of the mystery of atonement by which imperfections are atoned for, so that you may be in Christ. Not that it is a mystery any more but it was a mystery for a long time to most people.
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The Truth is not complicated, it is impossible if you try to shoe horn in Paul. As for being “perfect” like Yeshua, he already told you how (Mt 19:21). As for “atonement”, it probably would be more easily understood if spelled differently. Such as “at one ment”, or “at one with”. As for coming into the light, the light is the “Way”, the path which one must walk. If one walks in the path, then they can understand the “living Word of God”. It is not written as a path which one must contemplate. Although unlike the “Christian” church teachings, it would be wise to contemplate the path before starting out walking it.
 
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