Church of Latter Day Saints, Christian?

Amergin

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Official Christian religions all since 324 CE have defined Christianity by its Athanasian variant, with a Blessed Trinity of Father, son, and Holy Spirit. Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian, Coptic, and Maronite all follow a Trinity.

Since Mormonism rejects the doctrine of the Trinity and believes Jesus is a created god, is it by definitian, Christian? It is in a form similar to Arianism, Paulism, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism.

What is your opinion on this? Is any belief "Christian" because the believer wants to call it "christian?"

Slàinte mhath,

Amergin
 
Hi Amergin,

In my opinion, yes, any belief can be considered Christian because the believer wants to call it Christian. However, and this ties to your opening word, to the extent that the beliefs (and, in the LDS's case, scriptures) diverge from orthodoxy, which word is admittedly something of a misnomer when it comes to Protestantism, it will probably be considered at best highly unofficial Christianity. This, though subject to change, said by an unofficial (but not Mormon) Christian, Servetus.
 
A trinitarion definition would place Later Day Saints, Unity, Unviversalists, Unitarians, and Quakers as "not Christian". Yet from their gifts to the world and behavior may be considered quite "Christian" (in terms of general behavior, not specific deviants). The issue of self-identification is probably more important than trinitarianism or the opinion of the WCC.
 
From an exterior/exoteric point of view, they would not be considered Christian, according to the definition as set down in the Creed ... else in the end, anybody can call themselves anything they like, and all terms are stripped of their meaning — as doctrine contradict each other, they can't all be right.

From an interior/esoteric point of view ... not quite so clear cut.

Belief in the Divine Name will suffice (cf John 1:12); that is, belief in Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of the New Covenant of Love.

God bless,

Thomas
 
From an exterior/exoteric point of view, they would not be considered Christian, according to the definition as set down in the Creed ... .

Belief in the Divine Name will suffice (cf John 1:12); that is, belief in Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of the New Covenant of Love.

God bless,

Thomas

Hi Thomas. As you well know, Arian Christians were declared a heresy by the Orthodox Catholic Empire and persecuted out of existence in the Empire. It survived only in the German Kingdoms outside of the Empire. Arians like Bishop Arius believed in Jesus but considered him by a different definition...a created Son of God. The Gospels tend to reflect that Arian viewpoint. Jesus said he was sent BY God, to do God's work not his own, and that he (Jesus) knew less than God.

It seems that Arian Christianity and Mormonism believe in Jesus but differently than Orthodox Trinitarianism and its later Roman Catholic splinter religion. If belief is based on Jesus and his teachings, would the Jewish followers of James (brother of Jesus) be honest in calling themselves Christian. Some Jews and all Muslims venerate Jesus as a prophet who was raised from the dead by God. Can Islam be (by a stretch) be called a branch of the Christian Religious Tree?

Quakers, Unitarians, Uniates and other "One God" followers of Jesus often follow the teachings of Jesus more fervently than those who are Trinitarians. Some Unitarians, Atheists, and some Agnostic Non-Theists place much respect an agreement with the teachings of Jesus while not considering him to be a God, but a very great man.

Could I call myself Christian because I try to follow the teachings of Jesus and hold beliefs more compatible with Jesus than most US Christians? I agree with Jesus on helping the poor (redistribution of wealth), healing the sick (I am a Medical Doctor), and defending the down trodden (Lepers, Prostitutes, adulterers, and thieves.) But I doubt the virgin birth story, and the resurrection from true death. The Roman Catholic Church accepts the virgin birth and actual resurrection from real death, but gives little of its massive wealth to fight hunger, disease, and poverty. It sanctioned religious wars (against pagans, heretics, schismatics, and Muslims) instead of turning the other cheek.

I am curious about these seeming contradictions. You are a Catholic Scholar. Could you give me your take on it?

Slàinte mhath,

Amergin
 
.Belief in the Divine Name will suffice (cf John 1:12); that is, belief in Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of the New Covenant of Love.

God bless,

Thomas

What is the divine name? Jesus possibly believed in the divine JHWY or El. Jews regarded Yeshua as prophet but not a god. I agree that Jesus preached LOVE. However, the established Orthodox Christian Church of Constantine and Theodosius II did not demonstrate much love but persecution, torture, and genocide of non-Orthodox Catholics in the empire. Isn't the divine name Allah a variant of the Hebrew El.

In prehistoric Amorite theology, El, Elohim, Eloah. El, the father god, has many divine sons, who are known by the plural of his name, Elohim, or Els. Eloah, might then be used to differentiate each of the lesser gods from El himself. In Islam, the divine name Allahumma, used in the Qur'an as a variation of Allah, is clearly related to El, Eloah, Els, and Elohim. So, are the Hebrew and Islamic One Gods the same One God. Then what is the proper name of the new Trinitarian God(s) of Athanasius and Constantine?

Amergin
 
Hi Amergin —
What is the divine name?
Well, they are manifold, in Christianity for example, we have the Litany of the Divine Name; Islam has the same thing.

There are, I would say, two orders of name. The first is the name man comes up with, by his own reasoning — 'Theos' being such a one. The second is the name that is 'revealed' in sacred texts.

Then, when we consider a more phenomenal and less rationalistic and 'enlightened' age such as our own, people understood the idea of 'resonance', a theory not accessible to empirical measurement, and in Sheldrake, for example, largely regarded as pseudoscience, but not without its supporters among 'serious' scientists.

In short, there is a belief that if one prays, or contemplates the universe, or whatever, then the object of our attention responds ...

People here, for example, tend to write G!d or whatever, on the same basis.

+++

In Christianity, besides the name Jesus Christ, we have 'Kurios' which simply means 'Lord'; a generic term, and yet when the word is uttered, it resounds with particular meaning. So the importance is not in the letter, but in the spirit.

In prehistoric Amorite theology, El ...
Again, it seems you look to what is written on the stones of history, I tend to look for the author's hand, what is written upon the heart.

My belief is that the story of Abraham signifies the move from polytheism to monotheism ... but the name of that God was a mystery to Abram, and he probably used the names he was familiar with, but 'saw' that name in a new light. In like fashion, when Noah offered sacrifice to God, Scripture claims it was the same God as spoke to Moses on the mountain, even thogh Noah's conception of that God was, literally, a world apart.

Personally, I like El Shaddai ... but I mean the same Trinitarian Godhead when I use it.

Then what is the proper name of the new Trinitarian God(s) of Athanasius and Constantine?
I'll ignore your agenda on this point, as neither sound scholarship nor the material evidence has done anything to shift it, it's unlikely I will.

The Christian community accepted the God of the Jews as the same God of whom Christ spoke when they rejected Marcion.

The 'highest' Divine Name offered in the Hebrew Scriptures is given in the response to Moses on the mountain, the "I am" of Exodus 3:13-15.

'I AM WHO I AM' is not a personal name in the common sense, but rather, and more importantly, a self-disclosure of the Divine, a self-designation by the Divine to mean (among many meanings) I am Being Itself (in which all created nature participates); I am Self as such (again, in which all created rational nature participates) I am (and only I am) self-subsisting; Only I am eternal, absolute, infinite, without beginning or end; only I am Uncreated, Undetermined, Unconditioned, and I am the Source and Sustainer of all creation.

Indeed, some exegetes regard the statement as a 'roasting' for Moses and the people ... how dare they ask!

The Hebrews referred to God by a series of such designations, but understood that when one uses a divine designation, especially one that is revealed by the Designated, then there is a particular unity between the Name and the Named, which is why they treated such names, even though not personal names as such, as sacred.

In Christ we use the name He gave us, even though only He, by right, can use it ... Abba, Father ... That's why our Creed begins, "We believe in One God, the Father Almighty ... " There is no higher name, there can be no more intimate and no more personal a designation that that of parent/child.

But names ... there are many: Logos, Word, Son, Sacred Heart, Lamb of God ...

God bless,

Thomas
 
I believe what is being discussed has two roots: one from within the Orthodox-Catholic tradition and one from outside it but commonly called "Christian". So we have two definitions: the OC defines "Christian" Nicean, the radical wing of Protestantism (by definition those rejecting not just the Nicene Creed as literal but Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura) defines Christian as "someone who follows the teaching of Chr!st" (non-literally).

Fine, I believe we should all be able to agree on that. Since the word "christian" is normally used as something inclusive of both, I propose that small-c christian be used to refer to all those heretical groups and Nicean Christian or Trinitarian Christian be used in the more restricted OC case.

A great many religions and philosophies share this kind of issue (the Ahmadiyyan and Ibadis in Islam or process and organicism within pragmaticm or Zen within Buddhism). I agree with Thomas, if we define the term "Christian" in a Religious sense--there is the huge issue of conflict of definitions. So let us use "christian" in a religious or scientific or philosophical sense to refer to the larger community that believes in the teachings and life of J!sus as a suprememly important sense without being Trinitarians.

Just want to forstall conflict. Besides, if there exists some larger group of people who (by whatever standards, their own or the "public definition") include both the Nicean Christians and, say, LDS, we need that word to express ideas about that greater grouping.
 
... Some Jews and all Muslims venerate Jesus as a prophet who was raised from the dead by God. Can Islam be (by a stretch) be called a branch of the Christian Religious Tree?

I recall one Catholic writer, Hilaire Belloc, describing Islam as a Christian heresy, as a recrudescence of Arius (which idea was also expressed, in similar terms, earlier by {Cardinal} John Henry Newman).

Source:
Hilaire Belloc

"... Mohammedanism [Islam] was a heresy: that is the essential point to grasp before going any further. It began as a heresy, not as a new religion. It was not a pagan contrast with the Church; it was not an alien enemy. It was a perversion of Christian doctrine. Its vitality and endurance soon gave it the appearance of a new religion, but those who were contemporary with its rise saw it for what it was -not a denial, but an adaptation and a misuse, of the Christian thing ..."


With that said, I sometimes, in fun, refer to Islam as "(Middle) Eastern Orthodoxy." It could also be called unofficial Christianity, I suppose, but, then again, Christianity, when rid of its Trinitarianism (and a few other select doctrinal excrescences), might also be called Islam. I think it was the magician (and probably justifiably defrocked Catholic priest), Eliphas Levi, who once in my opinion rather insightfully referred to Protestantism as an incomplete Islamic revolution. He said that Protestants were essentially Muslims, but with a prophet the less and a few superstitions the more. I often remember and pause to consider that comment.


Serv
 
Serv, I see the point that you are making, and it has certain merit.

It reminds me of the Albigensians (Cathars and Bogomils) who were called Heretics by the OC Churches. I read that many of those ideas came from Crusaders and other Christians trading in the Crusader states with Muslim neighbours.

As I understand it, the more pure Monotheism of Islam inspired many crusaders. Many actually composed a dogma that the God of the Old Testament was evil Satan, and Jesus was the Good God of the new covenant. The conflict results from a rational reading of the Killer God of the Old Testament, the bringer of plagues, lethal floods, assaults on defenceless Canaanite Cities (killing men, women, children, and babies while allowing virgin girls taken for unclear reasons (wink and nod.)

Jesus by contrast taught love, forgiveness, compassion, healing the sick (instead of making them sick,) and feeding the poor (rather than JHWY's famines.) Jesus turns the other cheek and teaches morality. He is incompatible with the Old Testament nasty god.

One way to resolve this contradiction was to identify JHWY as Satan, whom Jesus the New Good God came to replace the O.T. god and give his human life to save humanity. As expected the OC Church persecuted them in the Balkans and exterminated them in France. Those in the Balkans, Bogomils were easily converted to Islam after the expansion of the Ottoman Turks in the15th Century. Those converts to Islam from Albigensianism began a 5 century conflict with unconverted Orthodox Christians under Ottoman rule.

I am not endorsing this but it makes sense to me. I am a Non-Theistic Agnostic.

Amergin
 
Christians are quite simply followers of Christ's teaching.

Despite this many follow the teachings of Moses and the history of Jesus...where it should be the other way around....

Nothing magical happened in 324....those that follow what occurred then are called Catholics....a group that for many were considered not Christians....

The trinity is a man made concept, as is the selection of 66 books.....

One does not have to have read those books, nor dance to any particular drummer to follow Christ.
 
Christians are quite simply followers of Christ's teaching.

Despite this many follow the teachings of Moses and the history of Jesus...where it should be the other way around....

Nothing magical happened in 324....those that follow what occurred then are called Catholics....a group that for many were considered not Christians....

The trinity is a man made concept, as is the selection of 66 books.....

One does not have to have read those books, nor dance to any particular drummer to follow Christ.

It sounds credible to me, from my reading. My impression is that many Christians actually follow the teachings of Jesus. However, many who fall into the Christian Fundamentalist or Evangelical mind-set, deliberately ignore the teachings of Jesus. The focus on worship of a man-made god, Jesus for salvation. Jesus did commend moral behaviour in multiple aspects. He celebrated the Sabbath. Fundamentalists are not at all fundamental. They twist it all into one spun verse to make Jesus a new god who must be worshipped. Following the Roman Indo-European direction of the Orthodox Catholic Church established in 324 CE they dismissed the wisdom and teachings of Jesus as the ramplings of strange man. Protestantism took it to the extreme of claiming that "sins don't count for salvation." This inverse moral insanity dismissed Jesus as a meaningless Idol.

I try to be as moral as possible. I avoid hurting people, cheating people, steal other's property, assault, rape, abuse, slavery, and persecution as being wrong because intuitive morality tells me they are wrong. As an Atheist, I act on the rightness and wrongness of deeds. I have no way to erase any wrongs. I must live with the guilt until I die. That gives me a superior morality compared to those who think they can be criminals, abusers, racists, child molesters, etc. because they can either confess the sins, erasing them. Or they can pretend to find Jesus and accept him into the left ventricle of their heart and all sins are erased. That is pure bollocks. Only idiots can think about that and believe it.

Amergin
 
What is your opinion on this? Is any belief "Christian" because the believer wants to call it "christian?"



Amergin
I could call myself a Doctor, and maybe even believe it to a certain degree but it wouldn't make me one.
 
As an Atheist, I act on the rightness and wrongness of deeds. I have no way to erase any wrongs. I must live with the guilt until I die. That gives me a superior morality compared to those who think they can be criminals, abusers, racists, child molesters, etc. because they can either confess the sins, erasing them. Or they can pretend to find Jesus and accept him into the left ventricle of their heart and all sins are erased. That is pure bollocks. Only idiots can think about that and believe it.

Amergin

Ah, but it isn't so my brother. The fact that you think you have moral superiority in itself proves that you don't, proves that your ego is ruling your life and you have an immoral need to feel better about yourself than others....just like the rest of us.

Funny, you just made me grasp original sin, and almost fall into that pit, see the danger of the power of what you atheists can lead us to?

But let us get beyond your high and mighty pedestal you've put yourself on and the ditch you've tried to dig for believers....

You can erase that guilt, it is called forgiveness and it need not be couched in any religious garb. Those mistakes you've made, are just that, mistakes, get over it. You weighed all the options, and with the knowledge and experience, the concept of risk vs reward, you chose a path, a thought, an action...to the best of your ability at the time. Only hindsight, the knew knowledge of the actual repercussions makes it wrong, had it turned out differently you would think differently of it today....so forgive yourself, relieve yourself of the burden, no need to carry that cross, proceed to use that knowledge for the future, revel that you won't make that mistake again, as you can't step into the same river twice... and know that you will make newer, bigger and better mistakes in the future!

We are all the same despite our perceived differences...you and I are one...with G!d....but don't worry yourself about that now!
 
We are talking two different things "legality" and "morality". One needs to keep the distinction in mind. It does not matter what religion one espouses to fall under the legal system (even if that legal system is driven by Biblical or Qu'ranic law).

Secondly, by accepting the doctrine of forgiveness of sins one does not necessarily walk away unscathed (I have eyewitnessed a radical example of that which closely parallels the "I shot a man" sequence in Lawrence of Arabia... the beheaded was forgiven of his sins but the community still took his life).

Thirdly probably anyone who committed such acts expecting forgiveness scored really high on his PCL-R (is psychotic).
 
Ah, but it isn't so my brother. The fact that you think you have moral superiority in itself proves that you don't, proves that your ego is ruling your life and you have an immoral need to feel better about yourself than others....just like the rest of us.

I do not feel that my goal in life is to feel superior. I am not superior to anyone. Every other human being is descended from a common group of bipedal hominids 3 million years ago. I do not claim perfect morality. I have sinned in many ways. I have also done many things that (to me) are compatible with Jesus' teachings. I diverged from a professorial career in Molecular Biology, the science that held my interest. I moved sideways into Medical School and Neurology Residency because I seriously wanted to help afflicted people. I had a successful practice in Scotland but gave it away to spend over three years in Ruanda (Central Africa) during the bloody war, famine, drought, and famines in the early 1990's. I made less money than the average US Christian Pastor by far. I saved many but I lost some as well. In the heat of war, I made some medical mistakes during fatigue, gunfire, and depression.

I do not consider myself superior to anyone. My retired classmates have larger retirement finances. I venerate Jesus because he chose the right things not the most popular things. I don't think he got rich from it either.

That I am not superstitious, and doubt gods and demons is not the major factor. I believe in Intuitive morality. I did some good and made some mistakes. I did not need God belief to have morality.

Funny, you just made me grasp original sin, and almost fall into that pit, see the danger of the power of what you atheists can lead us to?

But let us get beyond your high and mighty pedestal you've put yourself on and the ditch you've tried to dig for believers....

Aside from your ad hoominem, I have spent more time thinking than you. You accept myth without question. I do not. Original Sin is the Bronze Age Myth of God forbidding learning and storing knowledge (Tree of Knowledge). I interpret that as an Allegory for humans advanced to Agriculture and Civilisation only after giving up Hunter-Gathering. The Magic Garden of no work seemed wonderful in oral stories passed down. It was not fall. It was social evolution and advancement. Those who stick to the Original Sin Myth fail to read what it lead to...pastoralism, agriculture and more food for larger populations.

You can erase that guilt, it is called forgiveness and it need not be couched in any religious garb. Those mistakes you've made, are just that, mistakes, get over it. You weighed all the options, and with the knowledge and experience, the concept of risk vs reward, you chose a path, a thought, an action...to the best of your ability at the time. Only hindsight, the knew knowledge of the actual repercussions makes it wrong, had it turned out differently you would think differently of it today....so forgive yourself, relieve yourself of the burden, no need to carry that cross, proceed to use that knowledge for the future, revel that you won't make that mistake again, as you can't step into the same river twice... and know that you will make newer, bigger and better mistakes in the future!

I am guilty of several sins in my 7 decades. I also avoided many temptations to sin. I avoided temptations because I actually cared about the harm I did in past sins or the sin of omission when I failed to act. God had nothing to do with it. I felt guilt and I still have it. My guilt is a strong inhibition to making the same mistakes again. I don't fear a mean god burning me in Hell. I have a set of commandments based on my intuitive moral code. I am not saying I am morally superior to you. I am morally superior to many who break the code of Intuitive Morality.

We are all the same despite our perceived differences...you and I are one...with G!d....but don't worry yourself about that now!

I agree that we are the same in equality, with different perceptions of reality. Unlike Christians, I do not believe that "sins do not count in salvation." I don't believe in salvation. My molecules will spread out, break into atoms and recombine in the Universe. I will still be in the Universe after I die. But I will not be bonded in complex molecules and systems. I will perhaps be part of other animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, or absorbed into limestone. I am not with God, as you are. I support your right to be with your god or any other god.

Amergin
 
Re: Intuitive Morality from evolution

Many religions such as Christianity and Judaism have moral codes that are incomplete. They are lacking in moral principles that most modern atheists support. I would re-write the Commandments of Moses.

1. Thou may have any or no gods before thee.
2. Thou may make graven, porcelain, or clay images of whatever suits you.
3. Thou may take the name of any god in vain. One cannot harm gods.
4. Thou may do whatever thou desireth on Sunday if it is otherwise moral.
5. Thou shalt honour thy parents, if thy parents are deserving of honour.
6. Thou shalt not kill except in self-defence.
6a. Thou shalt not kill unbelievers, disbelievers, or dissidents on scriptural trivia.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery or thy word is worthless.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not lie.
10. Thou may covet all thou want but shalt not take what is not thine.
11. Thou shalt not persecute or hate those whose beliefs differ from yours.
12. Thou shalt not enslave another human being.
13. Thou shalt not treat cruelly or otherwise mistreat non-human animals.
14. Thou shalt not discriminate due of race, ethnicity, gender, or gender orientation.
15. Thou shalt not mentally or physically abuse or oppress thy spouse.
16. Thou shalt not mentally, physically, or sexually abuse children.
17. Thou shalt not suppress the scientific search for truth about our world.
18. Thou shalt not make laws restricting freedom of and from religion.
19. Thou shalt not make laws restricting the freedom of speech, press, media, internet, and association.
20. Thou shalt show compassion and charity to those less fortunate than you.

Now tell me how these 20 Atheist commandments are not clearly superior to those written by Moses in Exodus.

Amergin
 
Ah, but G!d did not give you these in the "Bible". Oh, the G!dess gave them to you as a result of using your heart, mind, and experience? I stand corrected, H!/Sh! did give them to you.

That's what happens when one does not have a dogma, rational thought and communication. Works every time!
 
Serv, I see the point that you are making, and it has certain merit.

Thank you, Amergin.

It reminds me of the Albigensians (Cathars and Bogomils) who were called Heretics by the OC Churches. I read that many of those ideas came from Crusaders and other Christians trading in the Crusader states with Muslim neighbours.

Although it takes one deeply into the grail and Arthurian legends, it is interesting to note, too, that part of the Fama Fraternitatis, that medieval mystico/alchemical tract, involves a mysterious "Book M" which Christian Rosenkreuz was said to have translated into Latin from Arabic. Moreover, it is sometimes said, by Dan Brown and other types, that the reason the Knights Templar spit on the cross was not because they were necessarily blasphemous, but because, by becoming guardians of King Solomon's Mines in Jerusalem, they had learned an alternate Christian story: that of Jesus' survival of the crucifixion ordeal, of his marriage and, ultimately, of the sangreal, or blood royal. Theirs may, in other words, have been an early repudiation of the mythical for the historical Christ.

Less mystically, my own character, the Spaniard Michael Servetus, is said by one of his biographers to have been shocked, when once he read the scriptures only then recently published in the vernacular by Protestant presses, to find therein no mention of the Trinity, for lack of belief in which both Muslims and Jews of the region were at times sent to pillory, gaol and worse. In fact, one of the allegations brought against Servetus by John Calvin, prior to Servetus's being burned at the stake, was that he had been influenced by the Quran and thus favored Jews and Turks, that is to say, Muslims (final two items).

As I understand it, the more pure Monotheism of Islam inspired many crusaders. Many actually composed a dogma that the God of the Old Testament was evil Satan, and Jesus was the Good God of the new covenant. The conflict results from a rational reading of the Killer God of the Old Testament, the bringer of plagues, lethal floods, assaults on defenceless Canaanite Cities (killing men, women, children, and babies while allowing virgin girls taken for unclear reasons (wink and nod.)

I don't mean to be glib, but, when I first read the Quran, I thought it sounded like the God of the (so called) Old Testament on anti-depressants: he seemed decidedly more even-tempered and not so given to tantrums. But seriously, and this is probably because it is my unfortunate lot to have never met a heresiarch of the Christian Church whom I could not hug and with whom I could not sometimes readily agree, I think Marcion, the one who took this idea to its extreme and would have made of Christianity a purely Hellenistic rather than Judaic religion, often made logical sense. I mean, there are so many incongruities between the Old and New Testaments that to simply append the one to the other and call the matter done seems absurd. However, with that said, most of the absurdities of Christianity are, to me, strangely charming and add ultimately to its appeal. Christianity, to me, is a sort of huge, masterfully designed, two-thousand year old suspension bridge, held together through the tension of its infinite constituent parts.

Jesus by contrast taught love, forgiveness, compassion, healing the sick (instead of making them sick,) and feeding the poor (rather than JHWY's famines.) Jesus turns the other cheek and teaches morality. He is incompatible with the Old Testament nasty god.

As I read it, there may well be a conflict between the prophets and priests of the Old Testament, quite independent of Christianity, with the former prophesying against the latter (and their practices). At any rate, in some key respects I agree with you: when, for instance, Jesus says, in his Sermon on the Mount, "Ye have heard it said [by Moses] X, but I say unto you Y," there is a whole lot of either abrogation or abnegation going on.

One way to resolve this contradiction was to identify JHWY as Satan, whom Jesus the New Good God came to replace the O.T. god and give his human life to save humanity ....

Yes, or with Ildabaoth, or Plato's demiurgos, etc. This is an old idea. I once undertook a study of pre-Christian, specifically Jewish, forms of dualism, if not absolute then at least mitigated forms of dualism, but forgot the lot of it and didn't even keep notes. Still, it is a worthwhile study.

I am not endorsing this but it makes sense to me.

Ditto with me.

I am a Non-Theistic Agnostic.

I am pleased to meet you. I am the inverse (or obverse): a sort of Theistic Gnostic (though this latter only in the Greek meaning of the word, not referring to early Christian heretical sects).

Best regards,


Serv
 
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