Who would design a test called earth and a system of rules called sins and the final grade be bliss or pain for eternity?
Man would.
Surely not any Creator being.....
Man would.
Surely not any Creator being.....
Heaven and Hell are anthropomorphic constructs...
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Qu'otar
charlie
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How else would you create conditions in the Garden, with freewill, that would force disbelievers to turn to God, thereby forcing a transcendence of your individual consciousness?
All you have to do is welcome the replaying of the record of good and bad behavior when the Holy Spirit puts you in the docket to be read your account. If you try to resist the psychology of what you have done, out of your own guilt, you are finished and it will get HOT!
Faith in God and the reading and remembering of John 14:27 as it applies to coming events helps as well.
Words to remember.
The garden is metaphor, allegory, it only exists as a story not a physical location or historical event.
My heart is not troubled nor afraid, thank you.
My heart is not troubled nor afraid, thank you.
Qu'otar
charlie
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As you wish. It is the universe. All of creation. At all levels:
- will
- time
- space
- gender
- thought
- energy
- matter
at least from our perspective...
time creates the fruit and thought creates the snake.
will is masculine and matter is feminine.
matter is the stuff of the Garden and creates the space.
will is the stuff of the Tree and creates the thought.
Spirit moves through the Mind.
Qu'otar
charlie
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This is totally wrong...I confused the specification of consciousness, from our perspective, with the creation of the Garden. Sorry, am tired and I rushed it.
The Garden and the Tree are the Feminine and Masculine Principles of creation. The Garden is the world and the Tree is consciousness within creation.
The Garden and the Tree are the Feminine and Masculine Principles of creation. The Garden is the world and the Tree is consciousness within creation.
NiceCupOfTea
Pathetic earthlings
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It may be alien to you Thomas, but it's not alien to the Christians in the US it is what millions of Methodists, JWs, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Evangelicals, Apostolics ...etc...preach to their children every day....
I don't believe G!d to be a sadist... I believe man to be power hungry and controlling...
NiceCupOfTea
Pathetic earthlings
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Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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But you do have a sneaking suspision that it is a "Who" who done it?
"Who" done it, or "Who" not done it, is the question?
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune . . .
Animals: estimated 3-30 million species
|
|--Invertebrates: 97% of all known species
| `--+--Sponges: 10,000 species
| |--Cnidarians: 8,000-9,000 species
| |--Molluscs: 100,000 species
| |--Platyhelminths: 13,000 species
| |--Nematodes: 20,000+ species
| |--Annelida: 12,000 species
| `--Arthropods
| `--+--Crustaceans: 40,000 species
| |--Insects: 1-30 million+ species
| `--Arachnids: 75,500 species
|
`--Vertebrates: 3% of all known species
`--+--Reptiles: 7,984 species
|--Amphibians: 5,400 species
|--Birds: 9,000-10,000 species
|--Mammals: 4,475-5,000 species
`--Ray-Finned Fishes: 23,500 species
http://animals.about.com/od/zoologybasics/a/howmanyspecies.htm
I learnt long ago of the plight known as "The Frog in the Well".
The Frog thinks that the whole world is the well ---and nothing beyond it.
So that should be re-assuring!
Spiritual life = differentiating spirit from the non-spiritural.
So if all is a mundane play of consciouness rising above the foam for just a moment ---so be it. There are millions chorus members queued-up to enact the same pastime countlessly.
If God in heaven is surrounded by millions of handmaidens ---why aspire to be lost in a crowd?
"Who" done it, or "Who" not done it, is the question?
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune . . .
Animals: estimated 3-30 million species
|
|--Invertebrates: 97% of all known species
| `--+--Sponges: 10,000 species
| |--Cnidarians: 8,000-9,000 species
| |--Molluscs: 100,000 species
| |--Platyhelminths: 13,000 species
| |--Nematodes: 20,000+ species
| |--Annelida: 12,000 species
| `--Arthropods
| `--+--Crustaceans: 40,000 species
| |--Insects: 1-30 million+ species
| `--Arachnids: 75,500 species
|
`--Vertebrates: 3% of all known species
`--+--Reptiles: 7,984 species
|--Amphibians: 5,400 species
|--Birds: 9,000-10,000 species
|--Mammals: 4,475-5,000 species
`--Ray-Finned Fishes: 23,500 species
http://animals.about.com/od/zoologybasics/a/howmanyspecies.htm
I learnt long ago of the plight known as "The Frog in the Well".
The Frog thinks that the whole world is the well ---and nothing beyond it.
So that should be re-assuring!
Spiritual life = differentiating spirit from the non-spiritural.
So if all is a mundane play of consciouness rising above the foam for just a moment ---so be it. There are millions chorus members queued-up to enact the same pastime countlessly.
If God in heaven is surrounded by millions of handmaidens ---why aspire to be lost in a crowd?
The thing is Wil, your interpretation of Christianity is just another construct.
You could be right about heaven and hell, though. Maybe there's no afterlife at all.
Life goes on, I don't dispute that, but maybe the 'afterlife' is a confusion, as is so often the case, of the universal and the particular — that seems to me to be the single most common mistake in the interpretation of any metaphysical doctrine.
Life goes on, but this particular life joined the flow at T+m (T=time and m=me), and left it at T-m ... T goes on, with out without the taint (for good or ill) of my particular existence.
That would explain the whole reincarnation thing. I get the feeling the doctrines talk about the universal principle, life-as-such, but as ever we popularise it by making it particular, and thus introduce a whole invented doctrine that is, metaphysically, more or less nonsense.
The whole coming back as a cat or flea of flower or whatever, what's the point of that? And coming back to suffer in a life for some wrongdoing of which you have no comprehension? That's ridiculous as justice.
Karma says if you plough up the land and poison the sea, your kids will starve. That I do understand. Karma that says someone is keeping a balance sheet, and determines what you are the next time round, that I don't. That's micromanaging on a grand scale.
And nor do I accept it in Christianity, either.
I rather think it's a misconception of the principle expounded in the English folksong "On Ilkley Moore Bar T'at" — man goes out on the moors without his hat, dies of exposure, gets buried, eaten by worms, ducks eat the worms, men eats the ducks.
Call it fate, destiny, karma, or just, as Kurt Vonnegut says, 'so it goes' ...
Just some thoughts.
God bless
Thomas
You could be right about heaven and hell, though. Maybe there's no afterlife at all.
Life goes on, I don't dispute that, but maybe the 'afterlife' is a confusion, as is so often the case, of the universal and the particular — that seems to me to be the single most common mistake in the interpretation of any metaphysical doctrine.
Life goes on, but this particular life joined the flow at T+m (T=time and m=me), and left it at T-m ... T goes on, with out without the taint (for good or ill) of my particular existence.
That would explain the whole reincarnation thing. I get the feeling the doctrines talk about the universal principle, life-as-such, but as ever we popularise it by making it particular, and thus introduce a whole invented doctrine that is, metaphysically, more or less nonsense.
The whole coming back as a cat or flea of flower or whatever, what's the point of that? And coming back to suffer in a life for some wrongdoing of which you have no comprehension? That's ridiculous as justice.
Karma says if you plough up the land and poison the sea, your kids will starve. That I do understand. Karma that says someone is keeping a balance sheet, and determines what you are the next time round, that I don't. That's micromanaging on a grand scale.
And nor do I accept it in Christianity, either.
I rather think it's a misconception of the principle expounded in the English folksong "On Ilkley Moore Bar T'at" — man goes out on the moors without his hat, dies of exposure, gets buried, eaten by worms, ducks eat the worms, men eats the ducks.
Call it fate, destiny, karma, or just, as Kurt Vonnegut says, 'so it goes' ...
Just some thoughts.
God bless
Thomas
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
I believe, wil, your construct does not neccessarily have to be Christian. It is available to anyone (Sikhs and Bahais are right in line).
Thomas' reaction is kinda llike one I got from a fellow engineer who later (G!D bless him) a Maranist Father. I told him how impressed I was that Catholics in the Southwest let Katsinas be buried in the mission walls or to celebrate a pueblo's saints day by moving all the regalia into an evergreen wikiup in the square where anyone could bless the Saint and Mary and Jesus (in effigy) with blue corn meal. He told me they were not Catholics.
Problem is that the missions are the oldest Catholic churches in the USA and many, many a Franciscan and Jesuit have been the priests at these "non-Catholic" churches.
Thomas' reaction is kinda llike one I got from a fellow engineer who later (G!D bless him) a Maranist Father. I told him how impressed I was that Catholics in the Southwest let Katsinas be buried in the mission walls or to celebrate a pueblo's saints day by moving all the regalia into an evergreen wikiup in the square where anyone could bless the Saint and Mary and Jesus (in effigy) with blue corn meal. He told me they were not Catholics.
Problem is that the missions are the oldest Catholic churches in the USA and many, many a Franciscan and Jesuit have been the priests at these "non-Catholic" churches.
Interesting thoughts Thomas, your Reincarnation theory is much like the poem I've posted here before... Wallace McRae, Cowboy Curmudgeon "Reincarnation" Cowboy Poetry at the BAR-D Ranch www.CowboyPoetry.com
I am full in the camp of 'I don't know' when it comes to afterlife or reincarnation, but I sure don't think if there were a creator G!d 'he'd' impliment a system where you got one chance to get in his super secret club and if you weren't told about it, or died before you learned about it or rejected the story you were told that you'd lose your pass to the VIP lounge...
@ Bhaktajan, and I surely believe that G!d surrounded by handmaidens is yet another anthropomorphic man made construct and we might as well add horny to our power hungry and greedy traits....
@ Radar, what the Franciscans, Jesuits and Catholics teach in monasteries and Uni is completely foreign to that which is taught to and believed by lay people in the US....it is a disgrace what they are doing to people for the sake of control and coffers....I do believe if Thomas sat down with a dozen Catholic School educated, 40 year old Americans who have been dutifully going to mass every week, he would be appalled at their beliefs.
I am full in the camp of 'I don't know' when it comes to afterlife or reincarnation, but I sure don't think if there were a creator G!d 'he'd' impliment a system where you got one chance to get in his super secret club and if you weren't told about it, or died before you learned about it or rejected the story you were told that you'd lose your pass to the VIP lounge...
@ Bhaktajan, and I surely believe that G!d surrounded by handmaidens is yet another anthropomorphic man made construct and we might as well add horny to our power hungry and greedy traits....
@ Radar, what the Franciscans, Jesuits and Catholics teach in monasteries and Uni is completely foreign to that which is taught to and believed by lay people in the US....it is a disgrace what they are doing to people for the sake of control and coffers....I do believe if Thomas sat down with a dozen Catholic School educated, 40 year old Americans who have been dutifully going to mass every week, he would be appalled at their beliefs.
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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I feel you are greatly lacking in vocabulary wil.
Apparently you may also be weak-willed too, IMHO.
You have missed my point ---by lifetimes.
Your lack of vocabulary makes it difficult to convey a law of life to you.
The crowds of, as you call it, so-called "Anthropomorphic-Man-Made-ism" is the only yard stick you have offered as a 'standard of measurement'
Thus, I pointed out in the post that you have quoted my reference to "Hand-maidens" [this BTW reminded you of copulation etc etc etc.
In the same post I pointed-out to YOU that the planet earth is OCCUPIED by more species of living creatures [NON-Anthropomorphic NON-man made] other than Homo-sepians!
SO, the purpose of YOUR existence too, is counted amongst the MASSES of creatures ---and *no more.
[*as per your stated sentiments]
I showed you the path available next down the line from your HUMAN lifetime now as you read this.
The species avalable to take "countless births in the cyle of samsara" is there for the taking!
Or as per your stated sentiments each individual Soul-Unit-of-Being appears once ---but the cycle goes on ---with new souls, old-souls, temporary souls, stupid-souls, damned-souls, happy-souls, enlightened souls . . .
So it is with the Super-Majority of living creatures on earth.
If an Anthropomorphic kingdom of enjoyment & bliss is a fantasy . . . then you agree with my pointing out that this world is MOSTLY occupied by lower spieces of living beings ---and as you are alluding to ---we Humans are only biological phenomena and like beasts we ONLY WANT:
to eat,
to sleep,
to mate,
to defend.
Never mind an Anthropomorphic significance of the lofty Heights of evolved Personhood.
The soul is NOT a PERSONA ---its NON-PERSONA?
All creatures are NOT INDIVIDUAL EXISTING BEINGS ---its INDIVIDUAL EXISTING BEINGS?
The value of Dust vs. INDIVIDUAL EXISTING BEINGS is negotiable?
How many courtrooms are arguing over "material" issues without the existence of interested party of Anthropomorphic clients?
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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Talk about propaganda?
Talk about campaign slogan?
you are correct....I lack vocabulary or will to go back and forth on this discourse.
but color me surprised there are other beings on earth....and that you thought I thought of copulating...
so often what we post about others says more about ourcellves than others...
but color me surprised there are other beings on earth....and that you thought I thought of copulating...
so often what we post about others says more about ourcellves than others...
As long as you realise I'm saying that the individual does not reincarnate ... it's just that life goes on.
Well I think you're the only one saying it like that that.
I wonder why humanity keeps thinking it deserves any special treatment ... the rest of nature works like that. Seems to me like we're making excuses before we've even started.
I find the idea that one could live 100 lifetimes, or a 1,000 ... then blow the lot with one mistake and you're not only back to zero, you're somewhere without hope of ever getting back.
Then there is the issue of personal identity. If Wil 'comes back' as Fred, or Freda, then what of Wil remains? None. How can it, without some kind of soul-order schizophrenia? And Freda makes a mistake, and Wil's lost everything he worked for?
So I argue that the universal aspect — life as such — goes on, but not the individual life. That's how I read it.
God bless,
Thomas