Did Marcion the Gnostic Write/Edit the "Genuine" Letters of Paul?

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Passerby

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All the so called "Genuine" letters of Paul, and ONLY the "genuine" letters of Paul, first show up, combined and edited, titles added, and in the same order, in Marcion's Gnostic Bible in 130CE, 200 years before they showed up in the Christian Bible. And they are virtually identical.

Matthew, Luke and John were written only a few decades before, and they show no sign whatsoever of having ever read those letters. They are totally oblivous to Paul's jargon in those "Genuine" letters, produced by Marcion and so beloved by the Gnostics for 2000 years.

So, how come Marcioin the Gnostic rounded up all "Genuine" letters of Jesus, and the Gospel writers were so clueless about Paul?

There have always been two Pauls, the Paul of Marcion's "Genuine" letters and the Paul of Acts. The stories are similar, but the Paul of Acts agrees with the writers of the Christian Gospels, not Marcion the Gnostic's "Genuine Letters".

It's as clear as the nose on our face, Paul may have written part of it, but but they were heavily edited by Marcion, who despite his bizarre Gnostic thing, was univerally considerd a very clever fellow. That that special "Genuine" Paul flavor, ONLY found in Marcion's Gnostic Bible, and ALWAYS found in Marcion's Gnostic Bible, comes from Marcion, not Paul.

All these old Christian documents have a "text type" from copying errors/editing. Alexandrian, Byzantine, Western, etc. What version was in Marcion's Gnostic Bible? All of them. Either he not only was the only person that knew of their existance, and had versions from all over the empire, or his were the originals all the others used.
 
The reason (as I understand it) is that Marcion was a control freak who should not have been given a leadership position.

Anyone that is anyone in Christianity never makes a name for themselves. That is why nobody knows who Paul is, for example. I believe this comes from the Jewish influences upon Christianity. It is widely thought that Paul was a real person; but he may have been several people. Luke may have been several people. Remember that Jesus is quoted as saying anyone who would follow him must deny themselves, and this quote is in Matthew, Mark and also in Luke. How could these authors deny themselves while also making themselves famous? It would be impossible, just as it is impossible that Marcion could have had good reasons for making himself a big shot.

What is one of the most important things about Jesus? He is a priest without any priestly lineage. "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Melchizadek is a nameless priest who appears out of nowhere in Genesis with no geneaology and no children are mentioned. Then he disappears like a stage prop. He's like Merlin the wizard.
 
Marcion the Gnostic thought up, (debatable) the foundation of second century Gnosticism. He thought that the God of the Old Testament/Jewish Bible was an evil satanic god, who did create this Universe, but this Universe is Hell. He thought we were in Hell and God was the devil and the Talking Snake was the good guy, trying to tell us the real skinny about knowledge/gnosis.

He thought the kindly Father of Jesus was a different god entirely, who was out to lunch somewhere, and the idea was to escape this Hell and find him whereever he is.

That Jesus, like a lot of Jewish Magicians, Honi the Circle Maker of the Talmud, Elijah of the Jewish Bible/Old Testament, called God, Father, didn't help.

Marcion saw a lot of suffering, it made sense to him.

And yes, the "Genuine" letters of Paul are completely compatible with God being an evil god and this being Hell. The second century Gnostics have always revered them even more than the Christians.
 
I need to read up on gnostics and just about every other subject. I've got a copy of several important books about them, but I'm just the saddest little student you could ever hope not to have in your class. What I know is that Marcion was a man with a history, and he liked it that way. He was pushy and disregarded others. If Marcion invented gnosticism then Al Gore invented the internet. There were gnostics before him and there were gnostics after him.
 
The word 'gnostic" means "knowledge" in Greek, no more and no less.

If someone is "gnostic" it means they find enlightenment with the help of knowledge, that would include Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, Spinoza, Einstein, etc.

They've been around forever.

There's also other religious threads, that are often called little g gnostic, like the Mandaean followers of John the Baptist, who preceeded John.

But there is a special thing that showed up in the second century, the capital G Gnostics, that thought God was the devil, the Father was another god out to lunch,e etc. etc. etc. and Marcion thought that up, and I said it was debatable.

Do you know of an example of that God is the devil etc. kind of capital G Gnostic before Marcion?
 
Oh yeah,

Number of strong parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Christian Gospels...200+

Number of strong and weak parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Christian Gospels...400+

Number of strong parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Second Century Gnostics...0

Number of strong and weak parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Second Century Gnostics...0

Number of strong parallels between the "Genuine" Letters of Paul and the Second Century Gnostics...All of it, 100%
 
Oh yeah...one more at the end...

Number of strong parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Christian Gospels...200+

Number of strong and weak parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Christian Gospels...400+

Number of strong parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Second Century Gnostics...0

Number of strong and weak parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the Second Century Gnostics...0

Number of strong parallels between the "Genuine" Letters of Paul and the Second Century Gnostics...All of it, 100%

Number of strong or weak parallels between the Gospel of Thomas and the "Genuine" letters of Paul...0

Either the Gospel of Thomas was before Paul, or the author cleverly and perfectly removed every trace of Paul from the Christian Gospels, and totally ignored the letters of Paul, "Genuine" or not.

[/QUOTE]
 
Passerby said:
Do you know of an example of that God is the devil etc. kind of capital G Gnostic before Marcion?
Click to expand...
I suggest looking into the old Japanese 'Snake Woman' mythologies, but I'm not familiar enough to say whether there is a strong parallel.

Perhaps a better match would be the Greek conception of the creation of humankind and of Zeus, whose father Chronos is often depicted as relatively evil.
 
Yeah, Chronos ate his own children (but in a way they survived in his stomach.) That was pretty evil, and Zeus overthrew him etc.

But Zeus was pretty darned evil too, not exactly a good god/bad god like the Second Century Gnostics. Although they were all exposed to Greek ideas and were well familiar with the story, so who knows.
 
It figures you would claim Marcion, he too hated Judaism and Jews.

The use of the term "gnosis" in the Eleusinian mysteries (where women were equals) really, really predates Marcion (by over a thousand years). Same with (a little later) with Zoroastrianism (esp Zurvian) and later Mithraic cults.

Marcion was probably the first Christion gnostic, that is true. But he was hardly the first Gnostic.
 
From the 4:15 post:

The word 'gnostic" means "knowledge" in Greek, no more and no less.

If someone is "gnostic" it means they find enlightenment with the help of knowledge, that would include Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, Spinoza, Einstein, etc.

They've been around forever.

There's also other religious threads, that are often called little g gnostic, like the Mandaean followers of John the Baptist, who preceeded John.

But there is a special thing that showed up in the second century, the capital G Gnostics, that thought God was the devil, the Father was another god out to lunch,e etc. etc. etc. and Marcion thought that up, and I said it was debatable.

Do you know of an example of that God is the devil etc. kind of capital G Gnostic before Marcion?

radarmark said:
It figures you would claim Marcion, he too hated Judaism and Jews.

The use of the term "gnosis" in the Eleusinian mysteries (where women were equals) really, really predates Marcion (by over a thousand years). Same with (a little later) with Zoroastrianism (esp Zurvian) and later Mithraic cults.

Marcion was probably the first Christion gnostic, that is true. But he was hardly the first Gnostic.
Click to expand...

A "Christian" that thought God was the devil and the Talking Snake was the good guy, and this is Hell, just for starters. And he's the first of that peculiar type of "Christian" called a Second Century Gnostic. They almost won the contest, it was nip and tuck.
 
It's a big deal in Christianity their struggle against the Second Century Gnostics that thought God was the devil, this was Hell, etc. The Christians wrote the history books and talked about them a lot. They didn't like them a bit.

Here's Professor Stephan Davies talking about them in reference to the Gospel of Thomas, which certainly preceeds Marcion, and is little g gnostic, but totally alien to the Infamous Second Century Gnostics...

Is the Gospel of Thomas Gnostic?


It all depends on what you mean by Gnostic. If you mean by Gnostic the belief that people have a divine capacity within themselves and that they can come to understand that the Kingdom of God is already upon the earth if they can come to perceive the world that way then Thomas is Gnostic. But if you mean by Gnostic the religion upon which the Nag Hammadi texts are based, a religion that differentiates the god of this world (who is the Jewish god) from a higher more abstract God, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body then no, Thomas is not Gnostic. This differentiation is very important, because some scholars reason that if Thomas is Gnostic (in the first sense) then it is Gnostic (in the second sense) and, as they believe,Gnosticism (in the second sense) is a second or third century heresy, they conclude that the Gospel of Thomas is heretical, late in date, and without very much historical value in regard to Jesus of Nazareth.
The Gospel of Thomas: Frequently Asked Questions
 
I know all the references you point out.

What difference does it make whether of not Marcion was the first to say "God is the devil", that i what the Early Church Fathers said about him. We do not have the source.

Yes, he almost won the contest, but from what happened (using the OT) he did not. You can believe he is right. That does not mean the rest of us have to believe it. Nor is there any evidence to back up your claims.

I notice that Davies does not accept your claims about Marcion.
 
And it must be ME you are accusing of hating Jews. What's that about?

I suspect I'm rather more fond of them than you are.They're right up there with the Samaritans with me.

And no, your Eleusinian mysteries didn't give full equality to women, or anything like it.

But the Gospel of Thomas most certainly does.
 
i don't believe he is right.
how can i say it more clearly.

radarmark said:
i know all the references you point out.

What difference does it make whether of not marcion was the first to say "god is the devil", that i what the early church fathers said about him. We do not have the source.

Yes, he almost won the contest, but from what happened (using the ot) he did not. You can believe he is right. That does not mean the rest of us have to believe it. Nor is there any evidence to back up your claims.

I notice that davies does not accept your claims about marcion.
Click to expand...
 
The "difference" is, the guy that thought up the God is the devil Second Century Gnostics, that almost defeated Christianity, is who the Christians get the Letters of Paul from, the only question is whether Marcion wrote and/or edited them.

Paul's letters are a big deal in Christianity, and figuring out where they came from is key to sorting it all out.
 
Passerby said:
And it must be ME you are accusing of hating Jews. What's that about?

I suspect I'm rather more fond of them than you are.They're right up there with the Samaritans with me.

And no, your Eleusinian mysteries didn't give full equality to women, or anything like it.

But the Gospel of Thomas most certainly does.
Click to expand...

Wrong, I never said it provided proof of someone pre-dating Thomas about sexual equality (I quoted the Gathas, the Gita and the Pali Suttas).

You still have not refuted (as if that is possible) the fact that Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism all (by your all too Western criteria of what was written down when) predate Thomas by at least 500 years.

I said the Eleusinian mysteries predated Marcion as "gnostic".
 
Wow, how subjective and anti-rational are you? At least now we know. Very and very. Folks, ignore everything "Passerby" says: he is both an ideologue and irrational (as most of us use those terms).
 
I never said they don't preceed Thomas and I said none of them give full equality to women.

And yeah, you aren't contributing anyting to the conversation, just one Strawman argument after another about what I said and believe.

But off.
 
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