misleading info on books/websites

[Popeyesays]

I read through all the replies and the threads before deciding to put in my <Snip for brevity>
However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

The Bab claimed to be the Gate to the Imam in 1844. Later He claimed to be "The Remembrance of God" (Dikh'rullah), then He claimed to be the Primal Point (Nuqta). All these claims were carefully measured and the progression of claims has to be considered all at once.

The Bab was in a very precarious position in Persia at that time and the orchestration of advancing claims kept Him free to proclaim His mission for a longer period of time than if He had laid claim to His Own Revelation in the first place.

If you like, I would be happy to expand this answer.

"FEAR ye God and breathe not a word concerning His Most Great Remembrance other than what hath been ordained by God, inasmuch as We have established a separate covenant regarding Him with every Prophet and His followers. Indeed, We have not sent any Messenger without this binding covenant and We do not, of a truth, pass judgement upon anything except after the covenant of Him Who is the Supreme Gate hath been established. Ere long the veil shall be lifted from your eyes at the appointed time. Ye shall then behold the sublime Remembrance of God, unclouded and vivid."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)
"For who else but God can reveal to a man such clear and manifest verses as overpower all the learned? Since thou hast acknowledged the revelation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, then there is no other way open before thee but to testify that whatever is revealed by the Primal Point hath also proceeded from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Is it not true that the Qur'án hath been sent down from God and that all men are powerless before its revelation? Likewise these words have also been revealed by God, if thou dost but perceive. What is there in the Bayan which keepeth thee back from recognizing these verses as being sent forth by God, the Inaccessible, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious?"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 31)



Regards,
Scott

 

[arthra]

Comments

Hello!

I also had a few comments to make here regarding Imran's post..If I may call you Imran?

imranshaykh wrote:

I read through all the replies and the threads before deciding to put in my reply.

The foundation of the Bahai Faith lies in the forerunner Bab. if there were no Bab then there would be no Baha simply because the Bab was the only one who actually "prophesized" about Bahaullah (though a deeper study of Babi writings will reveal that Bab actually nominated Subhe Azal as his successor and not Bahaullah. However leave that aside. Lets assume that he did nominate Bahaullah).

My comment:

Baha'is agree that the Nominee of the Bab was Subh-i-Azal as the leader of the Babis after the Bab's martyrdom (1850 C.E.)... so Subh-i-Azal had this leadership and nomination and the Babis respected that... There was turmoil though because of the persecutions and such and Subh-i-Azal forbade people to recognize him publically as he was afraid that he himself could be identified perhaps and suffer execution... In the Bayan the Bab revealed that "Him Whom God would make manifest" would appear and be the next Manifestation of God with authority to abrogate the laws and ordinances mentioned in His writings. It was on this fulfillment as being "Him Whom God would make manifest" of the Bab's prophecy that Baha'u'llah claimed to be and so it had nothing to do really with the nomination of the Bab mentioned earlier which was accepted. So most Babis became Baha'is and those who did not accept the calim of Baha'u'llah became known as "Azalis"... The Azalis continued awhile in Iran and there may be some remaining... however the last known Azali wrote around the mid forties and I haven't personally heard of any Azalis since about that time.

imranshaykh wrote:

The foundation of the Babi Faith lies in the Islamic belief in the appearance of the 12th Imam or Divine Leader. The Shite belief in 12 Imams begins with Hazrat Ali (as) - the son-in-law of the Holy Prophet (saw) and continues with his sons, Hasan and Hussain. This chain continues with 9 sons in succession from the progeny of Hussain. The lats being the Mahdi or the 12th Imam who was born on 15th Shabaan 255 AH and went into occultation in 260 AH. Islamic traditions indicate that Islam will be completed and the promise of Allah fulfilled by he appearance of the 12th Imam who will fill the arth with justice and equality. This Imam is prophesized to re-appear at the end of time.

The Bab in 1844 first claimed to be a gate or the medium through which the hidden Imam could be met. Then he claimed to be the 12th Imam and finally he claimed to be God (www.bahaiawareness.com)

My comment:

I think as far as it goes regarding Shiah Islam you are correct...The last Imam was supposed to have disappeared according to our belief around 260 AH and the Proclamation of the Bab was around 1260 AH or 1844 in the Christian calendar and a thousand years after the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam.

The site you refer to though (Baha'i Awareness) is one that we feel is antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith and represents the views of Shiahs who have opposed our Faith and refuse to recognize it as a legal entity in Iran and I believe misrepresented it. So to us it is not a neutral or impartial view.

Imran:

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.

My comment:

For Baha'is the Bab is accepted as a Manifestation of God Who fulfilled not only the expectation of the Twelfth Imam in Shiah Islam but the Return of Christ as well and the Imam Mahdi... so in our view it is not "the entire basis of Bab's claim".

Imran:

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

Comment:

I alluded to some of these prophecies in my other response to you on the other thread.

As to obliterating inequality and injustice in the Baha'i view this largely has been dealt with in the Principles taught by Baha'u'llah dealing with the equality of men and women and the elimination of racial prejudice as well as the principle that there should be a world parliament and an international court of arbitration which is at least partially coming to be realized today. Another principle of Baha'u'llah is that the extremes of wealth and poverty should be eliminated.

Imran wrote:

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

My comment:

This may be your view that the Baha'i Faith is "suspect" and you are welcome to investigate it for yourself. If we can assist you let us know.

In friendship,

- Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Sassafrass, hi!

Regarding Baha'i marriage, you said:

S>Yes. Inter-religious and interracial marriages are excepted....

Please note that the word is ACcepted, not EXcepted!

This is quite important as the meanings are virtually opposite!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hello, Imran!

You are quite mistaken that Azal was the Bab's successor! He was appointed simply as a place-holder, if you like, until the time when Baha'u'llah formally announced himself (possibly to divert attention from Baha'u'llah until that time). Further, his own actions make it clear he was hardly of God!

And as was already pointed out, the Azalis have been totally extinct for some time, whereas God-ordained Faiths survive and endure, including the Baha'i Faith! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Popeyesays]

Hello, Imran!

You are quite mistaken that Azal was the Bab's successor! He was appointed simply as a place-holder, if you like, until the time when Baha'u'llah formally announced himself (possibly to divert attention from Baha'u'llah until that time). Further, his own actions make it clear he was hardly of God!

And as was already pointed out, the Azalis have been totally extinct for some time, whereas God-ordained Faiths survive and endure, including the Baha'i Faith! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

The Dawnbreakers records that the Bab was in communication with Baha`u'llah as His execution approached. In letters amongst Baha`u'llah, Baha`u'llah's full brother Musa and another leading Babi of the day they agreed withthe Bab that Subhi Azal should be named in authority to the degree that Subhi Azal was to act as a mail center for the friends, so communications might go through him for dissemination, and that he had the responsibility to pass on the writings of the Bab to the communities in Persia after the death of the Bab. This would permit Baha`u'llah to guide the Babi's with a degree of occultation.

This is supported by the fact that upon the Bab's death His box of pens, seals, inks and paper were transmitted not to Subhi Azal, but to Baha`u'llah with a tablet addressed to Baha`u'llah which was a highly calligraphed repetition of the Arabic word "Baha" five hundred times.

There was no such gift or missive to Subhi Azal.

Subhi Azal was so personally fearful of his life that he failed miserably at disseminating the writings of the Bab, actually hiding the packets away in a hole rather than risk being caught with them. When he made his way to Baghdad he immediately went into hiding in the home of Baha`u'llah and did not let anyone see him.

These are not the actions of a committed inheritor to the authority of the Bab. Especially when it is compared to the actions of Baha`u'llah.

Regards,
Scott

 

[smkolins]

It should be noted, as hinted at by Bruce, that the position of figure head was a passing phase in the Babi Faith. It ended and passed away and those who beleived it held enduring value were lost within that generation.

There were several details and phases to this process but it all ended by the time Baha'u'llah arrived in Akka, and from then on the majority of the Baha'i Scriptures were written and even within the lifetime of Baha'u'llah, the majority of His followers established, and the Successorship established for 'Abdu'l-Baha, and the Covenant preserved in fulling Baha'u'llahs plan for the House of Justice.

Returning to the theme of the thread, the basic question is where does a religion come from - is it fundamentally derivative of the circumstances and social forces around it or is it fundamentally distinct from them. To the extent it is derivative one religion grows from another. To the extent it is independent one religion come from God. But such is God's plan that all the religions hold the seed of connection with the next in the form of prophecies. Prophecies themselves, however, are not the same as the Revelation given to the Founder of a Faith.

 

[imranshaykh]

Why was there progression of claims and faith only for Bab? We Muslims believe in 124000 prophets. None of them showed any prograssion in claims. Mohammed was a prophet and messenger. So was Moses and Ibrahim and all other prophets. None of them had any progression. Only Bab??

And what is the meaning of Dhikrullah? And Nuqta? What do they mean? You explain it to me in simple language if you understand. And what about his claim of being the 12th Imam?

Secondly, no prophet ever recanted his claims. Why was this ignomy only for the Bab? Refer to the incident of the Questioning of the Bab at Tabriz.

 

[imranshaykh]

Re: Comments

Hello!

I also had a few comments to make here regarding Imran's post..If I may call you Imran?

Please feel free to call me Imran!

My comment:

Baha'is agree that the Nominee of the Bab was Subh-i-Azal as the leader of the Babis after the Bab's martyrdom (1850 C.E.)... so Subh-i-Azal had this leadership and nomination and the Babis respected that... There was turmoil though because of the persecutions and such and Subh-i-Azal forbade people to recognize him publically as he was afraid that he himself could be identified perhaps and suffer execution... In the Bayan the Bab revealed that "Him Whom God would make manifest" would appear and be the next Manifestation of God with authority to abrogate the laws and ordinances mentioned in His writings. It was on this fulfillment as being "Him Whom God would make manifest" of the Bab's prophecy that Baha'u'llah claimed to be and so it had nothing to do really with the nomination of the Bab mentioned earlier which was accepted. So most Babis became Baha'is and those who did not accept the calim of Baha'u'llah became known as "Azalis"... The Azalis continued awhile in Iran and there may be some remaining... however the last known Azali wrote around the mid forties and I haven't personally heard of any Azalis since about that time.

What is the proof that the prophecy that Him Whom Good would make manifest (the correct term in Arabic is Man Yazharahullaho) is Bahaullah. It could be referring to the 12th Imam as well. Given that Bab claimed to be a gate to the 12th Imam? (Refer Bahaiawareness.com)

My comment:

I think as far as it goes regarding Shiah Islam you are correct...The last Imam was supposed to have disappeared according to our belief around 260 AH and the Proclamation of the Bab was around 1260 AH or 1844 in the Christian calendar and a thousand years after the disappearance of the Twelfth Imam.

The site you refer to though (Baha'i Awareness) is one that we feel is antagonistic to the Baha'i Faith and represents the views of Shiahs who have opposed our Faith and refuse to recognize it as a legal entity in Iran and I believe misrepresented it. So to us it is not a neutral or impartial view.

So? Is the Bab as per your beliefs the same 12th Imam who was prophesized by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the succeeding 11 Imams? This is a very important question, so please think carefully and reply. I have already mentioned that the foundation of the Bahai faith lies in proving the Bab was the 12th Imam.

Secondly, the comment on www.bahaiwareness.com is unfair. Just because you do not like what he writes/says, it does not mean that you dismiss him. If it is an intellectual battle, argue with intelligence. Disprove his points. So what if it comes out of Shiahs. Are they not worthy of your guidance? I see that www.bahaiwareness.com pokes holes in your books and brings references that few Bahais have heard of. You dont like it? Point out where has gone wrong. I find him quite neutral. He argues every point with a reference from a Bahai or Babi book which is a characteristic missing in the Bahais at this forum.

Let me put this in a challenge. If the Bab was the 12th Imam, please prove from Islamic sources that he was the 12th Imam. Or accept that he was'nt in which Islam is not over as a religion.

Imran:

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.

My comment:

For Baha'is the Bab is accepted as a Manifestation of God Who fulfilled not only the expectation of the Twelfth Imam in Shiah Islam but the Return of Christ as well and the Imam Mahdi... so in our view it is not "the entire basis of Bab's claim".

Can you please put across any quotation from Bab from the Bab's books to prove that he was what you claim. I do not want to hear Shoghi's viewpoint. He was'nt around when Bab was. Lets hear Bab say this.

I repeat once again. Prove that the Bab was the hidden 12th Imam who was awaited. Prove it. Dont just talk about it or accept it blindly. Let see some signs/characteristics which the Bab exhibited which prove that he was the 12th Imam. I repreat, prove it.

Imran:

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance.

Comment:

I alluded to some of these prophecies in my other response to you on the other thread.

As to obliterating inequality and injustice in the Baha'i view this largely has been dealt with in the Principles taught by Baha'u'llah dealing with the equality of men and women and the elimination of racial prejudice as well as the principle that there should be a world parliament and an international court of arbitration which is at least partially coming to be realized today. Another principle of Baha'u'llah is that the extremes of wealth and poverty should be eliminated.

I am sorry, but this response forces me to comment that your argument is very weak. The prophecies say that Justice and Equality will be established DURING the lifetime of the 12th Imam and not that someone WOULD come and talk about it and perhaps we see it in a phased manner over 150 years!

Why do we need Baha to tell us about justice and equality when we all belive in it anyway. You dont have to be a Muslim or Christian or a Bahai to belive in Justice and Equality. But yes, we do have to belive in a day which is prophesized when justice and equality will be the guiding force. Injustice will be obliterated. And this will happen in the lifetime of the Mahdi - the 12th Imam.



Imran wrote:

These are some of the questions for my Bahai friends. There is no running away or denying that the role of the Bab on whom the entire Bahai Faith rests is suspect.

My comment:

This may be your view that the Baha'i Faith is "suspect" and you are welcome to investigate it for yourself. If we can assist you let us know.

I am trying to investigate the Faith. But all I get from Bahais is sweet talk and no replies to my points. The Bahais believe in independent investigation of the truth, yet I have found no other who are so bound with dogma and what the UHJ dishes out for them. Over the past 150 years, the Bab's "official" position has shifted atleast 4 times. How come no one questioned it. And when someone did - www.bahaiawareness.com, you label it as prejudiced. Sorry, I do not think that www.bahaiwareness.com is prejudiced. I think the Bahais are. I apologise for sounding harsh, but I am going to call a spade a spade.

In terms of trying to assist. Let me know if the Bab was the 12th Imam of the Muslims. Secondly prove it to me. I will welcome ex-Muslim Bahais who have an understanding to Islam to join me in this debate. I have only one condition - tak with references from books. I will do the same.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

 

[Popeyesays]

Why was there progression of claims and faith only for Bab? We Muslims believe in 124000 prophets. None of them showed any prograssion in claims. Mohammed was a prophet and messenger. So was Moses and Ibrahim and all other prophets. None of them had any progression. Only Bab??

And what is the meaning of Dhikrullah? And Nuqta? What do they mean? You explain it to me in simple language if you understand. And what about his claim of being the 12th Imam?

Secondly, no prophet ever recanted his claims. Why was this ignomy only for the Bab? Refer to the incident of the Questioning of the Bab at Tabriz.

Dear Irmanshaykh,

Dhikrullah means "Remembrance of God". The Bab uses this in reference to Hmself in this passage and many others:
""FEAR ye God and breathe not a word concerning His Most Great Remembrance other than what hath been ordained by God, inasmuch as We have established a separate covenant regarding Him with every Prophet and His followers. Indeed, We have not sent any Messenger without this binding covenant and We do not, of a truth, pass judgement upon anything except after the covenant of Him Who is the Supreme Gate hath been established. Ere long the veil shall be lifted from your eyes at the appointed time. Ye shall then behold the sublime Remembrance of God, unclouded and vivid."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)

"Nuqta" Means the Primal Point, as in the First of Creation, it is also a reference to the diacritical mark on the first letter of the Qur'an. He sues it in reference to Himself in this passage and many others:
"For who else but God can reveal to a man such clear and manifest verses as overpower all the learned? Since thou hast acknowledged the revelation of Muhammad, the Apostle of God, then there is no other way open before thee but to testify that whatever is revealed by the Primal Point hath also proceeded from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Is it not true that the Qur'án hath been sent down from God and that all men are powerless before its revelation? Likewise these words have also been revealed by God, if thou dost but perceive. What is there in the Bayan which keepeth thee back from recognizing these verses as being sent forth by God, the Inaccessible, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious?"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 31)

As to "why the progression of claims": In the Baha`i point of view this is an excellent example of wisdom "Hikmat". The Bab was making not just a claim to be a prophet (nabi), but a claim to be the bearer of a new Dispensation (Rasul). In that place and time, such an immediate claim would have resulted in His death by fatwa much more quickly than the six years He was able to teach and proclaim.

As to the "recantation", it just is another example of Hikmat. He could say, "No, I am not the mouthpiece of the twelfth Imam" with perfect truthfulness, because He was actually claiming to be the "Twelfth Imam" metaphorically and the Qa'im in actuality. The original purpose of the court was to make sure He was not claiming to be the gate to the Imam, and the court was happy enough, and complacent enough to be satisfied with that disclaimer. This was not the incident in Tabriz - which may have been a forgery, cedrtainly the are a half-dozen "records" of the event and they differ greatly in what is recorded. And ALL but one of those records was kept by the court which would cedrtainly be happy if the Bab were a lunatic. The single record of Babi source was from a second-hand witness who was at the door of the chamber, but not inside to see and hear well.

I would also note that the court had the Bab examined by a European doctor to determine His sanity, and the doctor ruled Him perfectly sane.

So there was no recantation of His claim to be Rasul and Nabi. The whole "trial" in Tabriz bears remarkable resemblance to the trials of Christ before Herod and Pilate. When accused of being the Messiah, Christ said: "You say I am." Which was another perfect example of Hikmat.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Re: Comments

Please feel free to call me Imran!



What is the proof that the prophecy that Him Whom Good would make manifest (the correct term in Arabic is Man Yazharahullaho) is Bahaullah. It could be referring to the 12th Imam as well. Given that Bab claimed to be a gate to the 12th Imam? (Refer Bahaiawareness.com)

When Muhammed was asked for proof of His revelation He pointed to the Qur'an and challenged anyone to write a verse comparable. When asked the same question, Baha`u'llah replied:
"From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: "Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise." He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

So? Is the Bab as per your beliefs the same 12th Imam who was prophesized by the Holy Prophet of Islam and the succeeding 11 Imams? This is a very important question, so please think carefully and reply. I have already mentioned that the foundation of the Bahai faith lies in proving the Bab was the 12th Imam.

Dear Irman,
He was the 12th Imam - a nabi - different body, same spirit. He was also the Remembrance of God and the Primal Point (Rasul).

Secondly, the comment on www.bahaiwareness.com is unfair. Just because you do not like what he writes/says, it does not mean that you dismiss him. If it is an intellectual battle, argue with intelligence. Disprove his points. So what if it comes out of Shiahs. Are they not worthy of your guidance? I see that www.bahaiwareness.com pokes holes in your books and brings references that few Bahais have heard of. You dont like it? Point out where has gone wrong. I find him quite neutral. He argues every point with a reference from a Bahai or Babi book which is a characteristic missing in the Bahais at this forum.

Let me put this in a challenge. If the Bab was the 12th Imam, please prove from Islamic sources that he was the 12th Imam. Or accept that he was'nt in which Islam is not over as a religion.

Dear Imran,

Who said Islam was over as a religion? Is Christianity over as a religion? Is Zoroastrianism over as a religion? Patently not, neither is al-Islam. The Bab makes a claim, answer it for yourself.
"VERILY We made the revelation of verses to be a testimony for Our message unto you. Can ye produce a single letter to match these verses? Bring forth, then, your proofs, if ye be of those who can discern the one true God. I solemnly affirm before God, should all men and spirits combine to compose the like of one chapter of this Book, they would surely fail, even though they were to assist one another.[1]
[1 cf. Qur'án 17:90] 44
O concourse of divines! Fear God from this day onwards in the views ye advance, for He Who is Our Remembrance in your midst, and Who cometh from Us, is, in very truth, the Judge and Witness. Turn away from that which ye lay hold of, and which the Book of God, the True One, hath not sanctioned, for on the Day of Resurrection ye shall, upon the Bridge, be, in very truth, held answerable for the position ye occupied.... And unto you We have sent down this Book which truly none can mistake...
O concourse of the people of the Book! Fear ye God and pride not yourselves in your learning. Follow ye the Book which His Remembrance hath revealed in praise of God, the True One. He Who is the Eternal Truth beareth me witness, whoso followeth this Book hath indeed followed all the past Scriptures which have been sent down from heaven by God, the Sovereign Truth. Verily, He is well informed of what ye do... Such as are the true followers of Islam would say: 'O Lord our God! We have hearkened to the call of Thy Remembrance and obeyed Him. Forgive us our sins. Thou art, verily, the Eternal Truth, and unto Thee, our infallible Retreat, must we all return.'[1] Chapter II.
[1 cf. Qur'án 2:285 ]"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 43)

The entire basis of Bab's claim rests on the assumption that he was the 12th Imam and by his appearance Islam was completed and hence paved the way for Bahaullah to stake claim to a new religion.



Can you please put across any quotation from Bab from the Bab's books to prove that he was what you claim. I do not want to hear Shoghi's viewpoint. He was'nt around when Bab was. Lets hear Bab say this.

I repeat once again. Prove that the Bab was the hidden 12th Imam who was awaited. Prove it. Dont just talk about it or accept it blindly. Let see some signs/characteristics which the Bab exhibited which prove that he was the 12th Imam. I repreat, prove it.

Look to the passage above. The proof is in the person of the Bab. The proof is in the writings of the Bab. Every human soul has the obligation to look at the claim, consider the proof and decide for himself and no other what the truth is.

Imran:

However....however....the claims of Bab need to be examined for their veracity and truth. A study of Babi literature will show that Bab actually claimed to be the medium through which the 12th imam could be met. Why did he then claim to be the 12th imam. How come none of the prophecies about the 12th imam were fulfilled by his appearance. How come injustice and inequality were not obliterated by his appearance ..

Dear Imran, This sounds very similar to the accusations of the Sanhedrin against Jesus, son of Mary, as recorded in the Injeel, does it not? Were the Sanhedrin correct in their charges?

Regards,

Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

In ref to the recantation of the Bab, you have said that from the Bahai point of view, this is an excellent example of hikmat or Wisdom. In Bahai writings this is an allusion of the Shia concept of Taqaiyya or dissimulation or concealing one's faith to protect one's life.

However the points that you have missed out is that:

1. No prophet or divine representative from Allah ever practised Hikmat, even in the way you explain it.

2. Prophets and messengers of Allah never practised dissimulation. Moses never recanted his faith in the face of extreme difficulties, neither did Noah, Mohammed or for that matter, any prophet of Allah. Why was this practise altogether altered for the Bab? Nay, it was not altered. Bab genuinely recanted his claims and it took only a few slaps and a few hits to his feet for him to do that.

The concept of Hikmat exists only in the Bahais and Babi writings and no other writings for this is an extremely useful tool to get out of sticky situations. Take any event, can't explain the rationale? No problem! Blame it on Hikmat!

Secondly, one of my friends has said that nabi 0 rasul - 12th Imam - all mean the same. Sorry, they dont'. The definition of Nai and Rahul and Imam are different. An Imam is an Imam - the representative of a prophet or rasul. No a rasul or a nabi himself. The definitions for these terms have been loosely interpreted by the Bahais the way they see fit.

C'mon can't someone bring any proof that the Bab was the 12th Imam. We have 1,000s of traditions from the Prophet of Islam and the 11 succeeding Imams about the 12th Imam. In fact a count of the traditions will indicate that the issue of the 12th Imam is probably one of most widely discussed accross generations. Can one show even a single instance that Bab was the 12th Imam. I have been writings about this in each of my posts. Prove that the Bab was the 12th Imam.

I have documentary proof, one of which includes the term Dhikrullah, so patiently explained by my friend that indicates that the Bab was not the 12th Imam. In fact Bab names the 12th Imam by his name and title. He pleads and seeks help from the 12th Imam. He said that he was NOT the 12th Imam. What is then the basis of the Bab? Can't the followers of Bahaullah bring even one documentary proof to indicate that the Bab - the "great forerunner" of the Bahai faith is what he is claimed to be?

C'mon bring some proof.

Lastly, as regards the miracle of Mohammed, the Quran is not the only miracle of Mohamed - it is the final everlasting miracle of Mohammed.

During his lifetime, Mohammed brought out 1,000s of miracles, feats which are not possible to be done by any mortal - these miracles were to prove his divine connection. So we had stones, animals, trees etc who testified to Mohammed. We had the splitting of the moon, the returning of the sun as his miracles which are recorded in the books of history and are undeniable. At this point in time, in the absence of Mohammed, the Quran remains the everlasting miracle.

In the same manner, there must be miracles reported apart from the writings of Bab and Baha to prove their divine connection. And the miracle must be such which cannot be repeated till end of time by any mortal.

Any person can bring volumes of writings, like the Bab claimed his miracle was (refer to his examination at Tabriz) especially when they are peppered with mistakes and errors. Even the most basic gramatical laws were not followed by the Bab.

Which divine book or representative has behaved as the Bab? None. Why? Because the Bab was a mere mortal. Not a prophet or an Imam as the Bahais claim.

If you yet believe that he was the 12th Imam. Prove it. With documentary proof.

Warm regards
Imran Shaykh

 

[imranshaykh]

Hello, Imran!

You are quite mistaken that Azal was the Bab's successor! He was appointed simply as a place-holder, if you like, until the time when Baha'u'llah formally announced himself (possibly to divert attention from Baha'u'llah until that time). Further, his own actions make it clear he was hardly of God!

And as was already pointed out, the Azalis have been totally extinct for some time, whereas God-ordained Faiths survive and endure, including the Baha'i Faith! . . .

Peace,

Bruce

Very convenient. Again an interpretation of the Bab's action when there is no proof to that effect.

Who says that Subhe' Azal was only a place holder. Bab did not say so. Bab appointed Subhe' Azal and then passed away. The followers of Bab should have followed the Bab in letter and in spirit. They should have followed Subhe' Azal.

The fact the Subhe' Azal was not fit to be Bab's succesor, is a problem for Bab and the followers of the Bab. It only goes to prove my point that the Babi and the Bahai Faith are suspect.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

 

[iBrian]

It only goes to prove my point that the Babi and the Bahai Faith are suspect.

CR does not allow members of one Faith to directly challenge the members of another Faith - if you wish to ask questions and discuss issues of the Baha'i faith, then you are welcome to ask - but this is not a place to attack anybody's beliefs.

 

[Popeyesays]

In ref to the recantation of the Bab, you have said that from the Bahai point of view, this is an excellent example of hikmat or Wisdom. In Bahai writings this is an allusion of the Shia concept of Taqaiyya or dissimulation or concealing one's faith to protect one's life.

However the points that you have missed out is that:

1. No prophet or divine representative from Allah ever practised Hikmat, even in the way you explain it.

2. Prophets and messengers of Allah never practised dissimulation. Moses never recanted his faith in the face of extreme difficulties, neither did Noah, Mohammed or for that matter, any prophet of Allah. Why was this practise altogether altered for the Bab? Nay, it was not altered. Bab genuinely recanted his claims and it took only a few slaps and a few hits to his feet for him to do that.

The concept of Hikmat exists only in the Bahais and Babi writings and no other writings for this is an extremely useful tool to get out of sticky situations. Take any event, can't explain the rationale? No problem! Blame it on Hikmat!

Secondly, one of my friends has said that nabi 0 rasul - 12th Imam - all mean the same. Sorry, they dont'. The definition of Nai and Rahul and Imam are different. An Imam is an Imam - the representative of a prophet or rasul. No a rasul or a nabi himself. The definitions for these terms have been loosely interpreted by the Bahais the way they see fit.

C'mon can't someone bring any proof that the Bab was the 12th Imam. We have 1,000s of traditions from the Prophet of Islam and the 11 succeeding Imams about the 12th Imam. In fact a count of the traditions will indicate that the issue of the 12th Imam is probably one of most widely discussed accross generations. Can one show even a single instance that Bab was the 12th Imam. I have been writings about this in each of my posts. Prove that the Bab was the 12th Imam.

I have documentary proof, one of which includes the term Dhikrullah, so patiently explained by my friend that indicates that the Bab was not the 12th Imam. In fact Bab names the 12th Imam by his name and title. He pleads and seeks help from the 12th Imam. He said that he was NOT the 12th Imam. What is then the basis of the Bab? Can't the followers of Bahaullah bring even one documentary proof to indicate that the Bab - the "great forerunner" of the Bahai faith is what he is claimed to be?

C'mon bring some proof.

Lastly, as regards the miracle of Mohammed, the Quran is not the only miracle of Mohamed - it is the final everlasting miracle of Mohammed.

During his lifetime, Mohammed brought out 1,000s of miracles, feats which are not possible to be done by any mortal - these miracles were to prove his divine connection. So we had stones, animals, trees etc who testified to Mohammed. We had the splitting of the moon, the returning of the sun as his miracles which are recorded in the books of history and are undeniable. At this point in time, in the absence of Mohammed, the Quran remains the everlasting miracle.

In the same manner, there must be miracles reported apart from the writings of Bab and Baha to prove their divine connection. And the miracle must be such which cannot be repeated till end of time by any mortal.

Any person can bring volumes of writings, like the Bab claimed his miracle was (refer to his examination at Tabriz) especially when they are peppered with mistakes and errors. Even the most basic gramatical laws were not followed by the Bab.

Which divine book or representative has behaved as the Bab? None. Why? Because the Bab was a mere mortal. Not a prophet or an Imam as the Bahais claim.

If you yet believe that he was the 12th Imam. Prove it. With documentary proof.

Warm regards
Imran Shaykh

1.) You are ignoring the example of Jesus that I gave you.

2.) The Bab dissimulated nothing.

THe proof is in His own words. Like it or not. Can you prove from the Gospel and the Torah that Muhammed is Who He claims to be? Betcha can't, not that I challenge for an instant Muhammed's station as Apostle of God.

Brian may be correct, if you are challenging this and ignoring the answers, then its not a discussion. Though I hope he removes nothing to this point.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

1.) You are ignoring the example of Jesus that I gave you.

2.) The Bab dissimulated nothing.

THe proof is in His own words. Like it or not. Can you prove from the Gospel and the Torah that Muhammed is Who He claims to be? Betcha can't, not that I challenge for an instant Muhammed's station as Apostle of God.

Brian may be correct, if you are challenging this and ignoring the answers, then its not a discussion. Though I hope he removes nothing to this point.

Regards,
Scott

Sorry, forgot to mention: Subh'i Azal (Mirza Yahya) was not appointed He Whom God Shall Make Manifest. The appearance that of Apostle of God would be self-evident. It was.

Regards,
Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

CR does not allow members of one Faith to directly challenge the members of another Faith - if you wish to ask questions and discuss issues of the Baha'i faith, then you are welcome to ask - but this is not a place to attack anybody's beliefs.

Noted. Absolutely.

Respectfully yours,

Imran Shaykh

 

[imranshaykh]

1.) You are ignoring the example of Jesus that I gave you.

You will need to emmunerate the example of Jesus. I am not aware of the incident.

2.) The Bab dissimulated nothing.

But he recanted his faith. On numerous occasions. There are apology letters in the writings of the Bab in which he clearly says that he erred and his claims were all untrue. Are you aware of this?

Please answer yes or no. If yes, does this make any difference to your Faith? In my view, it should.

If no, then I can send you the links.

THe proof is in His own words. Like it or not. Can you prove from the Gospel and the Torah that Muhammed is Who He claims to be? Betcha can't, not that I challenge for an instant Muhammed's station as Apostle of God.

The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate?
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam?
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them?
Or the one in which he claimed to be God?
Or the one in which he recanted all of these?
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions?

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)

One must study the life history of Mohammed to verify how the Jews settled in Medina - why? Because they found in their books that a Prophet whose religion would be the last would settle there.

One of the miracles of the Quran lies in the knowledge that it shares about the previous prophets. Mohammed was untaught by any mortal. Never went to any mortal school. Yet, he was able to describe in great detail the conditions and the life history of the prophets. This was proof that he was sent by the same God that sent Moses and Christ. The Jews and Christian scholars across barriers accepted him as the Promised One of their books. There is sufficient documentary proof about this.

Brian may be correct, if you are challenging this and ignoring the answers, then its not a discussion. Though I hope he removes nothing to this point.

I think I have been replying to all questions. Yes, I will challenge the argument if I find it weak. I think that is the purpose of having a discussion forum. And yes, I expect answers to my questions as well.

I will repeat my question again.

The foundation of the Bahai religion stands on the basis that Bab was the prophesized 12th Imam. The Holy Prophet prophesized that Islam would come to an end (and be followed by the Day of Judgement) by the advent of the 12th Imam. There is no mention of a new dispensation in Islam (as there was in Jewish and Christian scriptures). On the contrary, the Holy Prophet always specified that Islam would continue till the Day of Judgement. The Quran would be the final word of God till the Day of Judgement.

Hence the only way to justify the coming of Bahaullah and to establish that it is the next dispensation after Islam is to prove that Islam was completed as a religion. Hence the need to establish Bab as the 12th Imam.

Also remember, if there were no Bab, there would have been no Baha. The position of Bab needs to be clarified. We must understand the genesis and the root before moving to the fruit of the tree.

Now the question once again. What is the documentary proof that Bab was actually the 12th Imam?

Brian had asked me why I raised this question at multiple times in my posts. The reason for this is that I did not receive any replies. So was the Bab the 12th Imam?

Respectfully yours,
Imran Shaykh

Regards,
Scott[/QUOTE]

 

[Popeyesays]

You will need to emmunerate the example of Jesus. I am not aware of the incident.



But he recanted his faith. On numerous occasions. There are apology letters in the writings of the Bab in which he clearly says that he erred and his claims were all untrue. Are you aware of this?

Please answer yes or no. If yes, does this make any difference to your Faith? In my view, it should.

If no, then I can send you the links.
------------------------



The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate?
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam?
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them?
Or the one in which he claimed to be God?
Or the one in which he recanted all of these?
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions?

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)

One must study the life history of Mohammed to verify how the Jews settled in Medina - why? Because they found in their books that a Prophet whose religion would be the last would settle there.

One of the miracles of the Quran lies in the knowledge that it shares about the previous prophets. Mohammed was untaught by any mortal. Never went to any mortal school. Yet, he was able to describe in great detail the conditions and the life history of the prophets. This was proof that he was sent by the same God that sent Moses and Christ. The Jews and Christian scholars across barriers accepted him as the Promised One of their books. There is sufficient documentary proof about this.



I think I have been replying to all questions. Yes, I will challenge the argument if I find it weak. I think that is the purpose of having a discussion forum. And yes, I expect answers to my questions as well.

I will repeat my question again.

The foundation of the Bahai religion stands on the basis that Bab was the prophesized 12th Imam. The Holy Prophet prophesized that Islam would come to an end (and be followed by the Day of Judgement) by the advent of the 12th Imam. There is no mention of a new dispensation in Islam (as there was in Jewish and Christian scriptures). On the contrary, the Holy Prophet always specified that Islam would continue till the Day of Judgement. The Quran would be the final word of God till the Day of Judgement.

Hence the only way to justify the coming of Bahaullah and to establish that it is the next dispensation after Islam is to prove that Islam was completed as a religion. Hence the need to establish Bab as the 12th Imam.

Also remember, if there were no Bab, there would have been no Baha. The position of Bab needs to be clarified. We must understand the genesis and the root before moving to the fruit of the tree.

Now the question once again. What is the documentary proof that Bab was actually the 12th Imam?

Brian had asked me why I raised this question at multiple times in my posts. The reason for this is that I did not receive any replies. So was the Bab the 12th Imam?

Respectfully yours,
Imran Shaykh

Regards,
Scott

[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------
As to the Gospel:
11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.


12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? 14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. Matthew 27, 11-14
-----------------
"
The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate? ` He was the Gate.
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam? He was the 12th Imam
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them? He was the station of the Imams
Or the one in which he claimed to be God? Show me where, in His own words IN A REPUTABLE SOURCE He claimed to be God
Or the one in which he recanted all of these? He did not recant.
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions? If it was full of error and contradiction, the source is suspect.

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)"

I have a good study of all extant records of the supposed recantations at hand. Each is correlated and the various statements attributed Him are cross related to each documkent to see where the words are repeated and where they are not repeated. Its a useful survey of the documents.

Regards,
Scott

 

[imranshaykh]

------------------------------------
As to the Gospel:
11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.


12And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

13Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? 14And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. Matthew 27, 11-14
-----------------
"
The answer to that is yes and no. The proof is in his words - but which words?
The one in which Bab claimed to be the Gate? ` He was the Gate.
Or the one in which he claimed to be the 12th Imam? He was the 12th Imam
Or the one in which he accepts the station of the 12 Imams and pleads his case with them? He was the station of the Imams
Or the one in which he claimed to be God? Show me where, in His own words IN A REPUTABLE SOURCE He claimed to be God
Or the one in which he recanted all of these? He did not recant.
Or the ones which are completely full or errors and contradictions? If it was full of error and contradiction, the source is suspect.

Tell me my friend, which ones? (I have original extracts for each of these in original persian and arabic and trust me I understand the languages!)"

I have a good study of all extant records of the supposed recantations at hand. Each is correlated and the various statements attributed Him are cross related to each documkent to see where the words are repeated and where they are not repeated. Its a useful survey of the documents.

Regards,
Scott[/QUOTE]

According to you, Bab was the 12th Imam AND the Gate to the 12th Imam? you mean to say that Bab was a Gate unto himself? He was the medium to his own self. He prayed for his own coming?

As expected, I have been treated with a response that borders on blind faith. There are no references to back any of your arguments.


But that is now how I will present my case. My case is backed with references - not from my books but from yours.

In the book of Dalaelus Sabah, page 47 authored by the Bab, he confirms the Tablet of Fatemah and confirms that part about the 12th Imam.

You may raise the issue that he was merely talking about himself. No he is'nt. Because the entire tablet mentions the name of each Imam along with the genealogy. The Mohammed mentioned in the tablet is the son of Imam Hasan Askari, the 11th Imam of the Shias.

The link to the same in JPG format is: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/areprint/bab/A-F/dalail/sabih047.jpg

Please not the link is not from bahaiawareness.com - but from an authentic Bahai web site.

Once again, read the book of Sahifae Adaliya, page 27 authored by the Bab, wherein he mentions the name of each of the 12 Imams ending with Hujjat al Qaem Mohammed ibnil Hasan (The Proof, The Upright, Mohammed the son of Hasan). Yes, the same Imam Hasan as mentioned in the above reference.

The link for the same is: http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/bab/S-Z/sahifadl/adl027.jpg

When I mentioned that Bab acknowledged the station of the Imams, I did not mean that he was the station himself! In the above reference, Bab begs for favours from the 12 Imams. He acknowledges their "status" and begs favours from them.

In a single post, I have provided you with 2 links - each indicating that Bab did not consider himself to be the the 12th Imam - He acknowledged that Mohammed, the son of Imam Hasan is the awaited 12th Imam.

But his followers do not wish to believe him. They choose to nominate him to a post which he did not claim for himself. Now one can ask - Who is this Hujjat Al Qaem, Mohammed Ibnil Hasan who Bab mentions in his books.

I hope you will follow my example and provide me with some links, some books, some proofs.....if not from my books, then atleast from your books to indicate that Bab was the 12th Imam.

Answer this and then and then only will I send you the link for the book in which Bab claimed to be God - again from a Bahai web site. Also the link for the recantation in pure unadulterated Arabic/Persian by the Bab.

Respectfully yours,
Imran Shaykh

 

[imranshaykh]

As regards to your quotes about Jesus - while I have yet to check the references and as I mentioned, I am not familiar with the background of the event.

Having said that, Jesus merely kept quiet. He did not lie or confirm what was being said about him. This is different from Jesus claiming to be something that he was'nt. Or if he said something and then blamed it on Hikmat.

Nay, it is very different from Bab's case. Bab unfortunately did not keep quiet. He kept on blabbering in the court of the Shah. Kept getting contradicted.

We could do a wonderful discussion on the examination of the Bab at Tabriz. It is one of my favourite incidents. But at some other time. I first need to know who is Hujjat Al Qaem Mohammed ibnil Hasan to whom the Bab sought favous from (refer to my earlier post with links to the references)

Regards
Imran Shaykh

Warm regards