misleading info on books/websites

I said:
Ah, yes - but then, the Baha'i faith has it's own dogma, and therefore the situation simply ends up as one religious dogma dictating to other religious dogmas. :)

I noted your definition of dogma and the list you supplied top-most including:

a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
* a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative; "he believed all the Marxist dogma"

As the Administrator of this forum and being involved in a lot of these discussions now and with us Baha'is, I was wondering how you personally regard the religions on this forum ..Maybe share what your own convictions are. But perhaps you'd rather not. It's your choice to respond to that.

But I would suggest Baha'is would respond to that above definition of "dogma" that each person must seek the truth for themselves or be involved in what we call the independent investigation of reality. We are not to simply accept a belief because say our family accepts it or because of an authority figure dictates it. So the emphasis to us in the area of belief is on personal search and acceptance rather than dictation.

Along with this personal search for truth is a principle called "consultation" where we consult on matters and attempt to arrive at "truth" or guidance for a particular sitiation.

- Art
 
Another aspect of this is that the early believers were led to their Faith through dreams and spiritual experiences.

I've been good thanks arthra, how about you? I've had about 3 / 4 phenomenon’s (experiences) connected to the Baha'i faith yet I'm not 100% accepting, yet I feel it's conquered me. Obviously coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut, I even asked the question to myself. But you know recently even my parents have loosened up there ideas a lot. I've told my mum about my experiences and she's ok with them. She’s intrigued about how the Magi Zoroastrian priests came to visit Christ when he was born as they had prophesies of the event.
 
I said:
But ceremony isn't dogma - ceremony is ceremony. :)

Now that doesn't seem to hold water from how I've seen every religion do it's thing. Ceremony isn't ceremony! Priests are justified as the only proper means of accomplishing various Rites as it were, no? These are not presented as mere play! They are the Path of Salvation it is claimed!
 
Postmaster said:
coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut

PM

I came from a strict roman catholic background and made the difficult transition to Buddhism, my family were surprised but they understand.

As such, I think I may only ever have one real piece of wisdom to offer in this life, and this is it.

Believe what you believe, openly and honestly, be true to yourself and to those who love you.

Peace.
AT5.


(My grandmother keeps on telling me she'll pray for me.)
 
Greetings! :)

>People have asked for justification for the Baha`i's claim to validity of its Messenger and Message....

No problem!

The primary proof (which serves as justification is Baha'u'llah's exemplary life itself, along with the hundred volumes of His Writings, which now constitute roughly half of the Baha'i scriptures! The teachings in these scriptures clearly have as their goal the fostering of unity, love, peace, and concord among humanity and among the nations. So in this respect these are the "fruits" of the Baha'i Faith, and Christ's "By their fruits ye shall know them" applies along with the specific fruits listed in Galatians. And there is also the Biblical assurance that "a bad tree cannot yield good fruit" and vice versa!

In addition to these, the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled many, many prophecies in the Tanach (Jewish scriptures), New Testament, and elsewhere! So these offer considerable additional proof that They are who They say They are!

All this is covered in more detail at such web sites as:

www.bahai-faith.org

and

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

My regards! :)

Bruce
 
Greetings!

B>Ah, yes - but then, the Baha'i faith has it's own dogma, and therefore the situation simply ends up as one religious dogma dictating to other religious dogmas.

Please note that we "dictate" to no one!

But that said, I would then humbly suggest that the key is to EXAMINE the claims and teachings of each religion, determine where the truth lies, and follow that!

(Simply what we advise everyone to do, anyway . . .)

Regards,

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
Well I'm going to come out with something, I had a dream I was in a white palace with many people and I walked into a small room where I found a black book in the middle, I went up to the book and picked it up when I left with it at that point I realised I was holding the holy writings of the Baha'i faith, then I woke up. Early this year I spent a lot of time here trying to discredit the faith after experiences similar phenomenon but after that dream I started reading more material online of the faith and again I could smell an unexplainable scent of roses.

Romany gypsies are known for there sixth sense and seems the Baha’i faith has even reached that community.

Greetings, Postmaster (and thanks for the steer)! :)

Your dream is most fascinating, but contains one probable error:

The Baha'i scriptures number fully 200 volumes, so it would have to be an awfully big book to hold them all! :)

But I'm extremely glad you're investigating now, and I wish you all the best, and good hunting! :)

BTW, I'll take the liberty of sending you my overview as it includes a list of web sites that you might find helpful. You can keep it or not as you like. (Please note, too, that you can get free literature from the Baha'is by calling 1-800-22-UNITE; the folks there can also put you in touch with a nearby Baha'i community, if you like.)

As to the Gypsies, you're certainly right! I sing in the Voices of Baha international touring choir, and a few years ago we did a tour across central Europe (London to Moscow). When we preformed in Hungary, there were several hundred Gypsy Baha'is who drove about 200 miles to attend our concert (over roads that were doubtless nowhere near the best). A wonderful time was had by all, and after the concert we and they were outside dancing together in the street! :)

And I'll join in wishing you a happy holy day! :)

Best,

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
Greetings, Postmaster (and thanks for the steer)! :)

Your dream is most fascinating, but contains one probable error:

The Baha'i scriptures number fully 200 volumes, so it would have to be an awfully big book to hold them all! :)

But I'm extremely glad you're investigating now, and I wish you all the best, and good hunting! :)

BTW, I'll take the liberty of sending you my overview as it includes a list of web sites that you might find helpful. You can keep it or not as you like. (Please note, too, that you can get free literature from the Baha'is by calling 1-800-22-UNITE; the folks there can also put you in touch with a nearby Baha'i community, if you like.)

As to the Gypsies, you're certainly right! I sing in the Voices of Baha international touring choir, and a few years ago we did a tour across central Europe (London to Moscow). When we preformed in Hungary, there were several hundred Gypsy Baha'is who drove about 200 miles to attend our concert (over roads that were doubtless nowhere near the best). A wonderful time was had by all, and after the concert we and they were outside dancing together in the street! :)

And I'll join in wishing you a happy holy day! :)

Best,

Bruce

Dear Postmaster,

Dreams have only one language, the language of symbolism. And to see all the writings of Baha`u'llah as a single book is certainly within the grammar of that language.
I was led to the faith by a dream. However, dreams speak to individuals not to everyone.
Are you familiar with Thomas Breakwell, the first British believer?
tbwell.jpg


Mr. Breakwell was in poor health and he passed away quite young. Abd'ul Baha eulogized him thusly:
Grieve thou not over the ascension of my beloved Breakwell, for he hath risen unto a rose garden of splendours within the Abha Paradise, sheltered by the mercy of his mighty Lord, and he is crying at the top of his voice: 'O that my people could know how graciously my Lord hath forgiven me, and made me to be of those who have attained His Presence!'[1]
[1 cf. Qur'án 36:25 ]
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Where now is thy fair face?
Where is thy fluent tongue?
Where thy clear brow?
Where thy bright comeliness?
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Where is thy fire, blazing with God's love?
Where is thy rapture at His holy breaths?
Where are thy praises, lifted unto Him?
Where is thy rising up to serve His Cause?
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Where are thy beauteous eyes?
Thy smiling lips?
The princely cheek?
The graceful form?
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast quit this earthly world and risen upward 188
to the Kingdom, thou hast reached unto the grace of the invisible realm,
and offered thyself at
the threshold of its Lord.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast left the lamp
that was thy body here,
the glass that was thy human form,
thy earthy elements,
thy way of life below.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast lit a flame within the lamp of the Company on high,
thou hast set foot in the Abha Paradise,
thou hast found a shelter in the shadow of the Blessed Tree,
thou hast attained His meeting in the haven of Heaven.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou art now a bird of Heaven,
thou hast quit thine earthly nest,
and soared away to a garden of holiness in the kingdom of thy Lord.
Thou hast risen to a station filled with light.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thy song is even as birdsong now,
thou pourest forth verses as to the mercy of thy Lord;
of Him Who forgiveth ever,
thou wert a thankful servant,
wherefore hast thou entered into exceeding bliss.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thy Lord hath verily singled thee out for His love,
and hath led thee into His precincts of holiness,
and made thee to enter the garden of those who are His close companions,
and hath blessed thee with beholding His beauty. 189
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast won eternal life,
and the bounty that faileth never,
and a life to please thee well,
and plenteous grace.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou art become a star in the supernal sky,
and a lamp amid the angels of high Heaven;
a living spirit in the most exalted Kingdom,
throned in eternity.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
I ask of God to draw thee ever closer,
hold thee everfaster;
to rejoice thy heart with nearness to His presence,
to fill thee with light and still more light,
to grant thee still more beauty,
and to bestow upon thee power and reat glory.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
At all times do I call thee to mind.
I shall never forget thee.
I pray for thee by day, by night;
I see thee plain before me,
as if in open day.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 187)

You can read some basic material on him at:
http://bahai-library.com/essays/breakwell.html

Regards,
Scott
 
Postmaster said:
She’s intrigued about how the Magi Zoroastrian priests came to visit Christ when he was born as they had prophesies of the event.

Don't forget the earlier connections - Abraham's third wife, Keturah, goes to the land from which Zoroastrianism later arrived. Then during the period of Diaspora in Babylon the Zoroastrian and Persian King Cyrus the Great was lead by the right hand by God according to the Old Testament. Then in Moses' day it was among the Zoroastrians that he took refuge from Egypt and married. Last in this series is as you observed that they found the babe Jesus.
 
Postmaster wrote:

I've been good thanks arthra, how about you?

My reply:

Well we're doing well here and I'm very happy to hear from you!

Postmaster:

I've had about 3 / 4 phenomenon’s (experiences) connected to the Baha'i faith yet I'm not 100% accepting, yet I feel it's conquered me. Obviously coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut, I even asked the question to myself. But you know recently even my parents have loosened up there ideas a lot. I've told my mum about my experiences and she's ok with them. She’s intrigued about how the Magi Zoroastrian priests came to visit Christ when he was born as they had prophesies of the event.

My reply:

These things take time and there's no rush ...

The story of the Magi is an intrigueing one ...

The Bible story of another Persian Cyrus is also a fascinating subject. The Lord "stirred up the spirit of Cyrus" in Ezra 1:1 and he was "the Lord's anointed" in Isaiah 45:1.

When Baha'u'llah was exiled to the Turkish penal colony of Akka for a virtual life imprisonment it was thought He would never survive. He was nonetheless eventually released from the confines of Akka itself and He camped for sometime on Mount Carmel across the Bay from Akka where was a small grove of Cypress trees, the very spot designated by Baha'u'llah where the remains of the Bab were to be enshrined years later.

The Cypress tree is straight, upright, resistant to the cold weather (all signs of strength and upright of character).

Mount Carmel was also where the Elijah triumphed over the priests of Baal.

- Art
 
Thanks for your replies, yesterday night I dumped into a lot of anti-Baha'i material on the net and feel torn by what I read. Especially from a Christian point of view.



Babism was a militant movement looking for revolutionary change, the Bab ordered his followers to rid the king of the day.



The fact that Bahá'u'lláh doesn't qualify as the promised one of the Bab in his writings. And that many made claim to the Babs promised one. Also Bahá'u'lláh exile to Bagdad was voluntary one.



Baha'i's beliefs towards Christianity, the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are viewed as only metaphorical.



No dark force in Baha'i teachings and mans imperfections are by those who do not seek knowledge. Contradictions within the writings of Bahá'u'lláh which are more under critical review due to him writing his own religion up, unlike any of the rest (in this sense history hasn't repeated).



Where are the beautiful angles of Christianity, Judaism and Islam gone?
 
Sorry, Scott; I'm not famliar with Breakwell, though 'Abdu'l-Baha's poem was most fascinating!

I have a passing acquaintance with Thornton Chase, the first American to become a Baha'i....

I've sent you the overview and website list, and hope you enjoy them and find them helpful!

Regards, and keep in touch.

Bruce
 
BruceDLimber said:
Sassafrass, hi!

Regarding Baha'i marriage, you said:

S>Yes. Inter-religious and interracial marriages are excepted....

Please note that the word is ACcepted, not EXcepted!

This is quite important as the meanings are virtually opposite!

Bruce

Oops! :eek: Yes, of course, I meant to use ACCEPTED. Thank you, Bruce.

I hope this mishap didn't create too much confusion for people. :)

warmly,
Sassafras
 
Angels, Babi history and all that...

Postmaster

Thanks for your replies, yesterday night I dumped into a lot of anti-Baha'i material on the net and feel torn by what I read. Especially from a Christian point of view.

My reply:

You know Postmaster I for some reason missed this post earleir so wantto apologize for a late response... I have been taking a much needed break from some of my usual haunts like CR. You know when you expose yourself to sites that attack religions whether Baha'i or Christianity etc. it seems we open ourselves to a lot of negativity and so your feeling of being "torn" by what you read is not unusual.

Postmaster:

Babism was a militant movement looking for revolutionary change, the Bab ordered his followers to rid the king of the day.

My response:

The Bab's followers were fulfilling a prophecy of the return of the Twelfth Imam which meant they believed they conducting a Jihad of sorts..They raised a black standard in Khorasan which was part of a prophecy... The early Babis believed in defending themselves with arms. After attacks by mobs and government troops they defended themselves. So this was their militancy, Baha'u'llah later abrogated Jihad and armed resistance in defence of the religion. There was never an order to "rid the king of the day". After the Bab was executed a few Babis did attempt to assassinate the Shah but it was not by order of the Bab. This foolish attempt on the life of the Shah led to a great persecution of the Babis. But there was never an order to assassinate the Shah.

Postmaster:

The fact that Bahá'u'lláh doesn't qualify as the promised one of the Bab in his writings. And that many made claim to the Babs promised one.

My response:

After the Bab was executed there were some claimants to be the promised one just as there were peopel who claimed to be the Messiah about teh time of Christ. Josephus listed about fourteen...so that is nothing new.

The Bab constantly made reference to "Him Whom God would make manifest" and eventually most of His followers came to recognise this was Baha'u'llah. .

Postmaster:

Also Bahá'u'lláh exile to Bagdad was voluntary one.

My reply:

There was an edict issue exiling Baha'u'llah to Bagdad after His imprisonment in the Siyya Chal prison for three month or so. He and His family were granted passage in mid winter to travel across cold and barren terraine to Bagdad.

Postmaster:

Baha'i's beliefs towards Christianity, the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are viewed as only metaphorical.

Reply:

The resurrection of Christ is regarded as a spiritual one and not a physical one... Baha'is accept the virgin birth. We do not deny Christ healing people or other miracles.

Postmaster:

No dark force in Baha'i teachings and mans imperfections are by those who do not seek knowledge. Contradictions within the writings of Bahá'u'lláh which are more under critical review due to him writing his own religion up, unlike any of the rest (in this sense history hasn't repeated).

Reply:

Maybe you could amplify here... what specifically that is referring to.

Postmaster:

Where are the beautiful angles of Christianity, Judaism and Islam gone?

My reply:

You'll find plenty of beautiful angels in the Baha'i Writings:

"Verily, He shall support you by the angels of His holiness and reinforce you with the breaths of the Spirit that ye may mount the Ark of Safety, set forth the evident signs, impart the spirit of life, declare the essence of His commands and precepts, guide the sheep who are straying from the fold in all directions, and give the blessings. Ye have to use every effort in your power and strive earnestly and wisely in this new century. By God, verily the Lord of Hosts is your support, the angels of heaven your assistance, the Holy Spirit your companion and the Center of the Covenant your helper."

______________________

I did want to say that for awhile I won't be posting as much here as I'm in a hiatus for awhile...

- Art
 
Art>Baha'u'llah ... camped for some time on Mount Carmel across the Bay from Akka where was a small grove of Cypress trees, the very spot designated by Baha'u'llah where the remains of the Bab were to be enshrined years later.

Art>The Cypress tree is straight, upright, resistant to the cold weather (all signs of strength and upright of character.

I don't know whether or not you're aware of this or not, Art, but there are now circles of cypress trees planted at several places in Haifa where Baha'u'llah stood back then!

The easiest to spot (and see right now) is the place you mentioned where Baha'u'llah stood to state where to build the Shrine of the Bab. Look at the pictures of the back (uphill) side of the Shrine and the gardens immediately behind it, and you'll see a small area on the center right side of the picture just behind the Shrine, slightly elevated by a circular brick wall and with about a dozen cypress trees planted in it.

That's the place. :)

Best,

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
Thanks for your replies, yesterday night I dumped into a lot of anti-Baha'i material on the net and feel torn by what I read. Especially from a Christian point of view.


Fair warning: a lot of "anti" stuff is like that, whether it's anti-Baha'i, anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim, or anti-Christian! It's basically all negativity, which is (unsurprisingly) quite depressing to read and reflect on! (So choose your sources well!)

Postmaster said:
Babism was a militant movement looking for revolutionary change, the Bab ordered his followers to rid the king of the day.

I wouldn't say it was all that "millitant" in itself (though the Babis did defend themseves when attacked, which happened a lot). It's true that the Bab and His teachings represented a _very_ revolutionary change, especially for that time and place!

But the accusation that the Bab ordered anybody killed is a complete lie! He did nothing of the sort.

(There was an incident later on when a few Babis tried to kill the Shah on their own initiative; they failed. Baha'u'llah condemned them strongly for this, and said it was such actions that could hurt Him, not the actions of His opponents!)

Postmaster said:
The fact that Bahá'u'lláh doesn't qualify as the promised one of the Bab in his writings. And that many made claim to the Babs promised one. Also Bahá'u'lláh exile to Bagdad was voluntary one.

In fact, He clearly does, as is evinced by the fact that not only did the Bab and Baha'u'llah correspond (including the Bab's sending Baha'u'llah a calligraphy of around 500 variants of the title "Baha" in the shape of a star), but just before His martyrdom, the Bab had His own seals, pen sets, etc. sent to Baha'u'llah. Once again, statements to the contrary are just the creations of the "anti" crowd.

And I think that if you examine the Baha'i Faith and its "fruits," you'll find that, as Jesus mentioned, they do bear out the truth and goodness of Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith! This is all the more striking when you compare it with the characters and actions of Baha'u'llah's opponents, in particular Mirza Yahha and his cronies. Added to this is the fact that the Baha'i faith has flourished in many parts of the world and is still enduring and growing after over a century and a half, while the groups of opponents continue to splinter and diminish even in those few cases where they haven't become completely extinct.

Postmaster said:
Baha'i's beliefs towards Christianity, the resurrection and the miracles of Christ are viewed as only metaphorical.

The word "only" defilnitely doesn't fit! Baha'is (including Baha'u'llah) fully accept the miracles of Christ! And while some of them probably carried a significant spiritual component (and message) in addition to their physical aspects, this in no way diminishes them.

And Christ's Resurrection is totally real, whether physical or spiritual! (I put it to you that you have to remember His own words about "the flesh inheriting nothing" and the spirit being what's important!)

And if you read the Baha'i scriptures, you'll find them full of praise for Christ, His mission, and Christianity generally! (Please ask us if you don't know where these passages are.)

Postmaster said:
No dark force in Baha'i teachings and mans imperfections are by those who do not seek knowledge. Contradictions within the writings of Bahá'u'lláh which are more under critical review due to him writing his own religion up, unlike any of the rest (in this sense history hasn't repeated).

The only "dark force" needed for evil to happen is man's own lower (animal) nature: we're quite capable of doing far more evil ourselves than a "devil" would ever be needed for! And unlike so many other religions, we Baha's don't have a devil to blame things on: the blame and responsibility for any misdeeds rest squarely on each person's own shoulders! ("The devil made me do it" is a definite non-starter from a Baha'i point of view.)

So I put it to you that this makes us Baha'is MORE responisible and involved in promoting goodness, not less! If each person doesn't do this him- or herself, who will?!

And I also assert that there are no "contradictions" in Baha'u'llah's Writings. If you think you see some, please say what they are so we can discuss them.

As to His wrilting our scriptures Himself, all I can say is, "There is progress!" :)

And "critical review" or no, His Writings continue to spread and flourish--in over 800 different languages, the last I heard!

Postmaster said:
I've had about 3 / 4 phenomenon’s (experiences) connected to the Baha'i faith yet I'm not 100% accepting, yet I feel it's conquered me. Obviously coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut....

Not to worry: LOTS of us nuts around! :)

Postmaster said:
Where are the beautiful angles of Christianity, Judaism and Islam gone?

If you mean beautiful aspects, they're very much present in the Baha'i Faith, as I think you've begun to notice already! :)

And if you mean angels, the Baha'i scriptures say (in "The Book of Certitude") that angels are in fact _humans_ who have become completely spiritual! So each and every one of us is potentially an angel. :)

Many regards, and by all means do keep the questions coming; they're most welcome! :)

Best,

Bruce
 
I'm certainly under the impression that Baha'i essentially began within Islam as a "messianic sect" - and that the early adherents were initially Muslim. However, today at least, it is well outside Islamic mainstream.

This is probably why Muslim scholars can be particularly aggressive against Baha'i, in a similar way that mainstream Christians tend to be very aggressive about Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Baha'i today does indeed have a much wider remit, though, and looks to appeal to people of any faith - or lack of - rather than hold itself to being a simple culmination of Islamic theology and prophecy.

Mormons don't claim to be an Independant Faith. Nor do JW.
 
Actually, the Church of Jesus Christ (which was the first name of the undivided LDS church) did indeed believe itself separate from Christianity. Describing itself as being the "Restored Church."

kiwimac

Former LDS Elder
 
Back
Top